For those who watched Kingdom of Heaven

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Philip_P

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These are some thoughts on the movie. I’d like to hear other people’s thoughts, too. Please try to keep the thread focused on the movie by backing up your opinions with examples from it.

Laying aside questions of historical accuracy and treating the movie as fiction, not documentary, what is the movie’s message, and is it anti-Christian? Some of the Christian characters are bloodthirsty fanatics eager for war. Virtually all mainstream Christian thought, though, from the Vatican on down, would reject such an attitude as being not authentically Christian. The movie seems to agree; the fanatics are definitely the villains, and are opposed by more level headed, compassionate Christian characters reluctant to rush to war. A few church officials are depicted unfavorably too, such as the patriarch of Jerusalem. Yet obviously the Church is more than its leaders, else the papacy of Alexander VI would have long since permanently discredited Christianity. The movie distinguishes the cowardly patriarch from the principled defenders of Jerusalem. Is the movie anti-war, or at least anti-Crusade? Here, perhaps, is the source of the suspicion that it’s anti-Christian. KOH is very violent. Its sympathy is with the civilians, and with those soldiers whose priority is the civilians. KOH doesn’t really pass judgment on the Crusades as a whole, but it certainly does not endorse them. The final, heroic action is not the triumph of the Christian armies, but rather the surrender of Jerusalem to the Muslims in exchange for the guaranteed safe passage for the evacuation of the city’s civilians. Does this preference for saving civilians, even if it means military victory for the Muslims, make the movie anti-Crusade? Does being anti-Crusade make the movie by extension anti-Christian?

These questions remind me of the movie Gunner Palace, a documentary that followed some American soldiers around Baghdad for a few months. The movie did not really make any political points, did not even engage in much commentary, did very little apart from show our soldiers not as soldiers, but rather as kids of 18, 19, 20, patrolling the streets but in their off time just being normal, young adult men. I was surprised to see the documentary consistently described as “anti-war.” Does humanizing war automatically become anti-war?

A key moment for me in KOH was the sequence when Balian comes to his land and spends time, not fighting, but digging a well to improve the day to day life of the people in his care. Even today, we like to talk about wars in abstract terms. We don’t keep track of how many civilians have died in the Iraqi war, and anyone who asks is called anti-American, or else they’re challenged to defend Saddam’s mass killings, as if somehow death balances out death. Why is it “anti-war” to focus on a war’s effects on people’s day to day lives? What does it say about our attitudes toward war, patriotism, loyalty?
 
I saw the movie.
What a mess.

I guess if I had to guess what the message was it would be “why can’t we all just get along?” :rolleyes:

Yes - the “bad” crusaders were so incredibly bad and blood thirsty they were cartoonish.
The muslims were very sympathetic.

Other than that - it was just plain ole BAD.
INCREDIBLY BORING!
Cliche to the point of being ridiculous.
The lines were so terrible they were comical.

This is a major bomb.
 
Cant wait to see it!

I support 100% a message of why cant we all get along despite differences.

I sure hope people dont have romantic notions of the Crusades…ie…every Christian fighting was holy and true and in it to soley defend Christ and the land and NOT personal or political gain. The same with the Muslims. It was like any other war right up til TODAY in Iraq…less about an IDEAL and MORE about POWER, GAIN and GREED.
 
I have a feeling no matter what reasons people go to see this movie…they will be left feeling rather - flat.
It is a poorly made movie…plain an simple.
 
On the side of artisitic merit, I agree, the movie falls rather flat. It would have helped for the main character not to have been experiencing a crisis of faith. Sometimes an existential crisis can make a story very good, by adding depth (isn’t crisis of faith basically the whole plot to Hamlet, after all?), but in this movie I think it weakened it. Especially as the message seemed to have been that the Kingdom of Heaven is a Kingdom of Conscience - that is, right action and fearlessly defending the vulnerable. Robbing the main character of his center when the whole point is that he is a man of conviction made him less, not more, well-rounded in this case.

Still, I actually enjoyed it, even if it was a bit slow. I’ve certainly seen far worse, and if I’m going to watch a movie as violent as this one, I’d rather see this over, say, Sin City (which I haven’t see, but understand to be far darker in tone and message).
 
Im going to watch it tonight,ill post my thoughts a bit later on!👍 :amen:
 
I haven’t seen the movie,but I have read some reviews on it, including Steve Pearsall from the St. Petersburg Times. His review underscores the fact that not many people understand the rationale for the Crusades – the need to rescue Christianity from a rapidly advancing Islam. I would suggest some insightful articles from Catholic Educators Resource regarding the Crusades. It’s an event in history that definitely gets distorted. I would also suggest researching the Crusades on New Advent which always offers indepth informatioon regarding all things Catholic. But once again, this movie offers yet another teachable moment for us Catholic laity to bring forth the truth of Catholic --more accurately, Western Civilization’s history.
 
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Lorarose:
This is a major bomb.
Good call.

’Kingdom of Heaven’ worsens U.S. box office slump
Yahoo!

*The lucrative summer moviegoing season suffered its worst start in years on Sunday, as the costly Crusades epic “Kingdom of Heaven” crawled into the No. 1 slot at the North American weekend box office with meager ticket sales of just $20 million.

The film, which cost nearly $150 million to produce, stars Orlando Bloom – “Hollywood’s No. 1 pretty boy,” according to Rolling Stone magazine – as a humble French blacksmith who takes on the Arabs during the 12th century. . .

Industry hopes that “Kingdom” would pull the business out a of a lengthy slump were dashed: the box office has now endured 11 “down” weekends when compared with the year-ago periods . . .*

An anti-Christian movies cost $150 million to make and returned $20 million the first weekend. The Passion of the Christ cost $25 million to make and…anyone know the first weekend box office?
 
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David_Paul:
An anti-Christian movies cost $150 million to make and returned $20 million the first weekend. The Passion of the Christ cost $25 million to make and…anyone know the first weekend box office?
Did you actually watch the movie? You call it anti-Christian; please provide examples from the movie to back up your assertion so we can discuss.
 
Philip P:
Did you actually watch the movie? You call it anti-Christian; please provide examples from the movie to back up your assertion so we can discuss.
I haven’t watched it but in one review I read it mentioned that a priest decapitates the corpse of a woman who committed suicide and steals her crucifix. Orlando Bloom’s character then kills the priest in retaliation. Is this true? If it is I don’t see why it was necessary to include such a scene.
 
Surely the message is “if it wasn’t for religion we would all get along just fine”.
 
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Grolsch:
I haven’t watched it but in one review I read it mentioned that a priest decapitates the corpse of a woman who committed suicide and steals her crucifix. Orlando Bloom’s character then kills the priest in retaliation. Is this true? If it is I don’t see why it was necessary to include such a scene.
I saw it tonight. This scene is the moral crisis for the hero: The woman was his wife who killed herself in post-partum depression when her child died. The priest was trying to drive the hero from the village by taunting him, to be rid of the stigma of the suicide. The hero kills the priest in an act of impulsive, retaliatory rage, then, convinced God has deserted him, flees to the Holy Land in search of redemption.

The movie wasn’t as triumphant as Gladiator or Braveheart. In those two movies the heroes sacrifice themselves as the cost of triumphing over and killing the antagonist-ruler; in this one the hero triumphs by refusing to cooperate with evil, winning the respect of the opposing general, and saving the innocent.

The movie has an R rating for realistic, graphic violence; nearly all the sex is off-screen. I enjoyed it. I’ve seen a lot worse.
 
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John_19_59:
Surely the message is “if it wasn’t for religion we would all get along just fine”.
That’s not the message I got. I think maybe you could rephrase it as “if it was’t for fanatics and knaves who justify themselves with religion we would all get along just fine.”

My take on the theme was the primacy of conscience - i.e. right action is more pleasing to God and more deserving of honors than empty pieties. Several times the good characters say that the Kingdom of Heaven must be a Kingdom of Conscience, and the hero’s creed is to leave the world a better place.
 
I think it’s a pretty decent review. The slight anti-clerical bent is not surprising, but it’s not overly heavy either. I think we still have a long way to go in rehabilitating the Church’s reputation - if we could get the media to get beyond is fixation with sexual issues and focus on the Church’s social and economic stances, it would do wonders (Catholic Social Teaching is often called “The Church’s best kept secret.” Let’s make it an open secret).

My own interest in the movie is in thinking about just war doctrine. From the USCCB review:

“As for the violence, of which there is much, it is graphic in its realism, but arguably it is there for a purpose and clearly illustrates the obscenity of war, as in a shot during the siege sequence offering a bird’s-eye view of the carnage. The tableau resembles a kingdom of hell.”

The Church hierarchy is generally anti-war these days (both JPII and Ratzinger, now Benedict XVI, have made statements against the Iraq war, for instance), but this movie reminds us that was not the case. I’m not really making an argument here, just thinking outloud (or online, as the case may be…)
 
I really liked the film as it was …a MOVIE…i thought it did have an anti-organized religion message to it…towards the end during the peace talk Saladdin and Bailian agree that if Jerusalem was destroyed there would be nothing to drive men mad, and the Hospitaller knight tells Bailian that religion is the cause of fanatics and to only follow his mind and heart.

Oh and they don’t point out how Jerusalem came into Muslim hands in the first place or why the First Crusade was really called. Islam spread like wildfire and conquered a vast area of the east and almost entered Europe through Spain. The Crusade was a reaction to this. Bailian in his speech towards the end of the film mentions that the taking of Jerusalem by Christian forces was an offense. But what of the taking of the City by Muslim forces before that? This makes it seem that the first Crusade was not to recover Jerusalem, but to Conquer it, making the goal of the Crusade greed.
 
My friend saw it last night and enjoyed it. I will probably see it sometime soon, and will reserve judgment until then. I remember when The Passion came out, the Jewish community decried it as anti-Semitic without even seeing it. I fear that’s what’s happining with this movie, simply because of the somewhat embarassing history of the Crusades. I could be wrong, of course.
 
Conquer Jerusalem?? The Crusade didn’t need to conquer it. It belongs to the Christians from the start. The Crusade was taking back what belongs to them. It’s the Muslim who stole it and impose their tyrannical governing over the Christians and this movie makes it out as if Jerusalem belong to them and the Christians or Crusade was all in the wrong. The movie doesn’t tell how the Crusade started. It just jumped right in the middle of history. The movie was all show and no authentic history. Anyone who knows history, the sole purpose of the Crusade was to take back Jerusalem and subdue the Muslim tyranny. It was justified. But along the way (a long way), some of the leaders of the Crusade got sidetracked by greed and power.
 
The Crusades were also to discourage Muslims from sacking Rome again as they had done in the 10th century when they looted the tombs of St. Peter and St. Paul.

Hey, that would make a great movie. Wonder why nobody has made it. Lots of action in the 10th century. Muslims taking Malta, taking Sicily, taking Bari, raiding the French coast for Christian slaves from their base in conquered Spain, Muslims landing at Ostia and marching on Rome.
 
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David_Paul:
The Crusades were also to discourage Muslims from sacking Rome again as they had done in the 10th century when they looted the tombs of St. Peter and St. Paul.

Hey, that would make a great movie. Wonder why nobody has made it. Lots of action in the 10th century. Muslims taking Malta, taking Sicily, taking Bari, raiding the French coast for Christian slaves from their base in conquered Spain, Muslims landing at Ostia and marching on Rome.
Hollywood seems motivated by money, yet they put out horrible films (artistic expression, or political messages??) that flop. The truth is, a film about Christians fighting off the marching Moors would hit it out of the park!! Hollywood is too chicken to do it
 
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