For those who were or are Evangelical. Is being saved more important than Baptism?

[Jon_S_1]

We know God is love. It would be inconsistent and contrary to a loving God’s character to consign souls to hell for the sole reason they died before they could even comprehend God or be taught what it is that he requires.

So I am confirming with you it is just your tradition right?

So if that is the case then why should we do missions work? If those people already have a semblance if God to the best of their abilities, or even if they don’t believe in God at all of no fault if their own, then “It would be inconsistent and contrary to a loving God’s character to consign souls to hell for the sole reason they died before they could even comprehend God or be taught what it is that he requires”

 

[dronald]

I’m not sure if there is a Theological explanation as to why God would allow unbaptized, unborn babies into His Kingdom but we can speculate that they indeed do go to Heaven based on what Jesus said:

Matt 19:14 “Let the children alone, and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these”

Matt 18:3 says “Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven”

Obviously there is a status given to children and those who are converted like children. When Adam ate from the tree of knowledge between good and evil, does that mean a child has the knowledge between good and evil and therefore goes to Hell? I highly doubt a mentally handicapped person or a child can understand good from evil.

But I’m not God, so I can’t think how God would think or say what God would say. I can only assume that if I was to ask Him, His answer would blow my mind. But I believe we can be content that children are safe.

 

[aemcpa]

Yes, but love covers a multitude of sins. We trust God is both just and sufficient in grace to have hope that infant children are not burning in hell for the sole reason they were not baptized on someone else’s confession of faith.

Evangelicals do not believe that baptism removes original sin. Why then would we baptize our new born children to remove original sin? It would not be a very logical position.

Are you saying that a person is not justly condemned to Hell on the basis of original sin alone?

 

[ltwin]

So I am confirming with you it is just your tradition right?

So if that is the case then why should we do missions work? If those people already have a semblance if God to the best of their abilities, or even if they don’t believe in God at all of no fault if their own, then “It would be inconsistent and contrary to a loving God’s character to consign souls to hell for the sole reason they died before they could even comprehend God or be taught what it is that he requires”

Adults are a different situation. The Bible is clear that men are without excuse. The glory of God has been manifested in all creation, and even Gentiles who were not given the law do by nature the things required of the law, so they are a law for themselves.

Children who cannot reason are a completely different category.

 

[ltwin]

Are you saying that a person is not justly condemned to Hell on the basis of original sin alone?

I’m saying that God is Love, his mercy endures forever, and he knows what is just. I trust that God is able to accomplish that which corresponds to his nature. Because of what we know about God, I do not worry about the fate of children who die before the age of reason. I trust that God knows what he is doing.

 

[aemcpa]

I’m saying that God is Love, his mercy endures forever, and he knows what is just. I trust that God is able to accomplish that which corresponds to his nature. Because of what we know about God, I do not worry about the fate of children who die before the age of reason. I trust that God knows what he is doing.

You might find this interesting reading: vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/cti_documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20070419_un-baptised-infants_en.html

 

[Darryl_B]

For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy.

 

[LegoGE1947]

I realized the same thing.

I went to Catholic mass one day, and was humbled and struck at what true worship was . It was all about God and humbling ourselves and realigning our hearts with God,

I went to my Evangelical Church after that. Saw the rock band put on a show, some curtesie comedy video to intro the sermon and then a dynamic speaker. It was all about entertaining the audience not worshiping God.

Case in point: when do Evangelical Churches close/die? When the pastor they worship moves on and an equally entertaining replacement can’t be found.

I quickly saw how the Evangelical Church was a social club and entertainment venue not a house of worship.

Worshiping God in the mass is ssssooooooo refreshing after all that!

Sounds like the “Different Way To Do Church” place we have in our city. It has lots of members, but their preaching is 1 inch deep and a mile wide. They have a concession stand in the lobby and theater style seats. And the sermons are actually motivational talks sometimes on video rather than with a live preacher.

 

[berk60]

Okay, tell me how does a severely- mentally challenged person **repent and believe **in order to be baptized? Does it mean he or she will never be baptized? Or is it a double standard rule?

I don’t have the mind of God to tell you how He views their condition anymore then you do. But another human being sprinkling water on someone can not force the hand of God to save. It’s an inside job of the Holy Spirit to bring someone’s heart to salvation.

 

[manualman]

I think, going by my experience, most Evangelicals believe infants are already going to heaven if they die in infancy, so we don’t believe unbaptised infants are endangered.

You do have to forgive us poor catholics for never being quite sure what any particular protestant’s beliefs are going to be since they are so varied. The above raised my eyebrows since my own experience in evangelical circles included a definate recognition of Original Sin and the universality of man’s fallen condition. In their theology ALL had sinned (usually citing Rom 3:23), the wages of sin were death (Rom 6:23) and forgiveness could only come from being saved by accepting Christ (John 3:16). See, I learned SOMETHING…

But their theology was rigid in this regard in how it applied to those who died without ever having had heard the gospel. While this had the salutory effect of really motivating their missionary efforts, it (IMO) did God’s character rather a disservice…

My point is that catholics do tend to make the mistake of assuming that their own encounters with evangelical protestantism are reflective of the entirety of evangelicaldom. Your post suggests that maybe ya’ll can make the same mistake. There are lots of different opinions on things out there in the protestant world and anybody literate and who owns a bible can stake a claim to knowing the truth as much as the next guy. The average catholic in the pew holds lots of weird opinions too, but at least we have somewhere to go to sift the truth from the nuttiness. When people want to know what protestantism believes, the sky’s the limit. There’s no one stop shop to find out. It’s great to say that you just need the bible and the Holy Spirit until you realize how many people have both and yet profoundly disagree.

So just as it may be wrong for a catholic convert from an evangelical community to generalize his experience broadly about evangelicalism, it’s just as wrong for you to claim speakership for the entire movement. His experience in it is as valid as yours.

 

[dronald]

You do have to forgive us poor catholics for never being quite sure what any particular protestant’s beliefs are going to be since they are so varied. The above raised my eyebrows since my own experience in evangelical circles included a definate recognition of Original Sin and the universality of man’s fallen condition. In their theology ALL had sinned (usually citing Rom 3:23), the wages of sin were death (Rom 6:23) and forgiveness could only come from being saved by accepting Christ (John 3:16). See, I learned SOMETHING…

But their theology was rigid in this regard in how it applied to those who died without ever having had heard the gospel. While this had the salutory effect of really motivating their missionary efforts, it (IMO) did God’s character rather a disservice…

My point is that catholics do tend to make the mistake of assuming that their own encounters with evangelical protestantism are reflective of the entirety of evangelicaldom. Your post suggests that maybe ya’ll can make the same mistake. There are lots of different opinions on things out there in the protestant world and anybody literate and who owns a bible can stake a claim to knowing the truth as much as the next guy. The average catholic in the pew holds lots of weird opinions too, but at least we have somewhere to go to sift the truth from the nuttiness. When people want to know what protestantism believes, the sky’s the limit. There’s no one stop shop to find out. It’s great to say that you just need the bible and the Holy Spirit until you realize how many people have both and yet profoundly disagree.

So just as it may be wrong for a catholic convert from an evangelical community to generalize his experience broadly about evangelicalism, it’s just as wrong for you to claim speakership for the entire movement. His experience in it is as valid as yours.

Well you’re right.

The most important thing to remember is that we cannot judge where anyone is going in any denomination. If a Christian says that babies (or anyone else) are going to Hell, then they’ve made a judgement only meant for God to make.

It’s like the Catholic stance that there may be a limbo for them, and it’s since been accepted that perhaps they will enjoy all of God’s graces. When I ask Catholics about my Salvation they usually tell me that it’s up to God to decide and they can’t make a judgement based on what they know about me, which is true. So let’s all leave the judging up to God, whether it be Catholic or Protestant.

Although, one can speculate and I would assume they would go to Heaven. I have my theories why; but as I said, any answer God would give us would blow our minds.

 

[Jon_S_1]

Sounds like the “Different Way To Do Church” place we have in our city. It has lots of members, but their preaching is 1 inch deep and a mile wide. They have a concession stand in the lobby and theater style seats. And the sermons are actually motivational talks sometimes on video rather than with a live preacher.

Yep! Stay Clear of that place!!!

 

[manualman]

Indeed, we face uncertainties. Unlike God, we don’t have all the answers. While catholics do believe that God retains the right to grant graces not revealed to us, we can’t use that as an excuse not to do what He commanded us. Therefore, we send missionaries to the far corners of the world to tell people of the gospel who have not heard it before (rather than just trust that God will judge them justly based on the graces they have received). We also baptize our babies because baptism is a sacrament that confers Grace and we’ve been told to do it.

Protestant criticisms of the sacramentality of baptism would be excellent points if baptism were something people dreamed up and expected God to jump to it like a butler. But JESUS instituted baptism. It’s a gift we’ve been given, so we open it ASAP.

Good discussion, thanks.

 

[MSSheBear]

I would like to dive in here and tell of my previous life as a Protestant and an Evangelical: the churches I attended emphasized “being saved” as though it was a one time event that could never be taken away. This was the most important thing. The churches I attended placed a high value on being baptized in accordance with God’s command. Certain individuals would delay their baptism out of embarrassment or fear of their family and express dismay that anyone would place such an emphasis on baptism.

From my experience with Evangelical worship services there is a much greater emphasis on the individual rather than on worshiping God when compared with a Catholic Mass. The only exception was the one Lutheran (Missouri Synod) service I attended. Most of the Evangelicals I come across are very sure they know who is saved and who is not. Of course, I did hang out with Calvinists.

 

[Nicea325]

Well you’re right.

The most important thing to remember is that we cannot judge where anyone is going in any denomination. If a Christian says that babies (or anyone else) are going to Hell, then they’ve made a judgement only meant for God to make.

It’s like the Catholic stance that there may be a limbo for them, and it’s since been accepted that perhaps they will enjoy all of God’s graces. When I ask Catholics about my Salvation they usually tell me that it’s up to God to decide and they can’t make a judgement based on what they know about me, which is true. So let’s all leave the judging up to God, whether it be Catholic or Protestant.

Although, one can speculate and I would assume they would go to Heaven. I have my theories why; but as I said, any answer God would give us would blow our minds.

FYI: Limbo is not a doctrine and never was a doctrine. Basically, it was a theological speculation.

God Bless

 

[Nicea325]

I don’t have the mind of God to tell you how He views their condition anymore then you do. But another human being sprinkling water on someone can not force the hand of God to save. It’s an inside job of the Holy Spirit to bring someone’s heart to salvation.

Okay,not to step on your toes,but do you not acknowledge a hypocrisy exist with such a position? You stated one must repent in order to be baptized-correct? In essence, one must make an intellectual decision-correct? Therefore, it is an either/or dichotomy or there are no exceptions to the rule?

God Bless

 

[Nicea325]

If a child dies before the age of reason, we entrust them into the God’s care, knowing that He is love and His grace is sufficient.

Okay,but that still does not change the fact many children over the age of reason will never be capable of making an intellectual decision due some sort of intellectual limit or limitations.

God bless

 

[aemcpa]

Okay,but that still does not change the fact many children over the age of reason will never be capable of making an intellectual decision due some sort of intellectual limit or limitations.

God bless

In fairness, this supposed difficulty is easily resolved by tweaking the phrase “under the age of reason” to say “who have not attained the use of reason”, in which case all those who never attain the use of reason, whether due to age or other limitation, would fall into that category. I don’t want to speak for Itwin, so I will let him say if he accepts my modification.

 

[Nicea325]

We would only baptize them if they made a confession of faith. In the case of a person with Down’s Syndrome, for example, it would obviously not be anything extravagant or complex. But it would be a basic understanding of the gospel and expression of faith on their intellectual level (not ours).

For those who are not capable of comprehending or expressing such faith at all, we would not baptize. However, we would believe that those persons are loved by God, and He knows their situation. We entrust them into His hands with no fear or anxiety. Like infants who die, we believe that such persons who die are in the presence of God.

How interesting. But what harm would be done to such a person being baptized and not capable of comprehending? It would be like a doctor knowing someone is ill and such a person could be given such medication,but since the patient has no clue about the medications, he or she would be denied medical attention.

 

[Nicea325]

In fairness, this supposed difficulty is easily resolved by tweaking the phrase “under the age of reason” to say “who have not attained the use of reason”, in which case all those who never attain the use of reason, whether due to age or other limitation, would fall into that category. I don’t want to speak for Itwin, so I will let him say if he accepts my modification.

Fair enough.