For those who were or are Evangelical. Is being saved more important than Baptism?

[dronald]

When the pastor they worship moves on and an equally entertaining replacement can’t be found.

I quickly saw how the Evangelical Church was a social club and entertainment venue not a house of worship.

This is ridiculous. When I see the love of Christ in peoples eyes it brings me joy, and I also stand and worship while worship music plays. Most Evangelicals love God with all their hearts and show it through worship, and you should be extremely happy for our joy due to our love of Christ. I’m glad you feel so close to Christ at mass, I really am. When I hear about Catholics dedicating their lives to God and worshiping Him how they worship Him it makes me so happy to see other Christians dedicating their hearts to God.

Please don’t judge.

To me, it seems as if Protestantism in a lot of cases is feel good, cumbayah type stuff. While groups like Cru had good music and worship and most kids were committed, I always wondered how most of those who believed would keep it up when things got really tough. I also got a sense a lot of them were spiritual wanderers. A lot of them had parents who werent really involved in church, or if they were it wasn’t a part of their lives. So these young adults would join a church or group because it was exciting or they had friends or they had fun things at church. But eventually I wonder if someday they will just wander again.

Just my 2 cents

The same goes for many Catholics in many Catholic homes. I knew many Catholics who would drift in and out of their Church and not take it seriously.

Again, this judging Protestants and the way they worship business is not fair, some Catholics are just as hypocritical. Please let us worship the way we do, let us show our love for God and do not judge.

 

[aemcpa]

Again, this judging Protestants and the way they worship business is not fair, some Catholics are just as hypocritical. Please let us worship the way we do, let us show our love for God and do not judge.

Christ commanded Christians how to worship, and Protestants disobey that command. That is a sin worthy of judgment.

 

[dronald]

Christ commanded Christians how to worship, and Protestants disobey that command. That is a sin worthy of judgment.

I disagree, but I still love you. God bless you, and I don’t judge you.

Now, excuse me while I go read Romans 14 again.

 

[manualman]

Not being Baptized is in direct disobedience to God’s command. I don’t know any Protestant that denies this, and therefore if a Protestant has not been Baptized he must do so right away. Our argument is that we will not be damned (nor will unbaptized babies) because we didn’t get Baptized. This, once again evident by those who die on their deathbeds and aborted babies. Let us not forget the theif on the cross.

While it is a noble principle to trust in the Mercy of God, one does well to do so first and foremost by doing what He tells us to do, no? Catholic theology acknowledges things like “baptism of desire” which potentially cover miscarriages and converts facing death before having a chance to be baptised.

We just find it needless to tell God “yeah you said to baptize whole households, but we’re going to hold off with Johnny until he’s old enough to understand it and ask for it.” I understand your reasoning, I just don’t think it’s wise to second guess the understanding the apostles themselves had about what the command to baptize was all about.

 

[aemcpa]

I disagree, but I still love you. God bless you, and I don’t judge you.

Now, excuse me while I go read Romans 14 again.

The Third Commandment is not a “disputable matter”. Nor are the Sacraments. Eat whatever you want, but worship the Lord as He commands.

 

[Jon_S_1]

This is ridiculous. When I see the love of Christ in peoples eyes it brings me joy, and I also stand and worship while worship music plays. Most Evangelicals love God with all their hearts and show it through worship, and you should be extremely happy for our joy due to our love of Christ. I’m glad you feel so close to Christ at mass, I really am. When I hear about Catholics dedicating their lives to God and worshiping Him how they worship Him it makes me so happy to see other Christians dedicating their hearts to God.

Please don’t judge.

The same goes for many Catholics in many Catholic homes. I knew many Catholics who would drift in and out of their Church and not take it seriously.

Again, this judging Protestants and the way they worship business is not fair, some Catholics are just as hypocritical. Please let us worship the way we do, let us show our love for God and do not judge.

I do not mean to offend you, nor do I mean to make a blanket statement, but I have attended several prominent Evangelical Churches in Southern California and I speak of my situation.

The churches I have attended, play rock music in an effort to create an emotional response within the worshiper, this is not true worship, but pageantry. These churches were also their own islands. Independent and relatively isolated. Did they do some things with other churches? Sure, but at the end of the day it was about building their numbers, putting more money in the plate, building the next building God called them to poor millions into, etc…

The churches were built around their speakers. Chuck Swindoll, Robert Schuller, Rick Warren, John MacArthur etc…the services were about going to hear these people preach. Things like community, confession of sin, church discipline, communion, baptism, were all secondary if exist ant at all.

That is my experience which I rightly judge as incompatible with God’s message to man.

Of course the rock band allowed for a form of worship, and I often felt Closer to God. And the preaching often taught good Christian Truths. The problem is the whole package is greatly lacking and it is easily seen in contrast to liturgical churches.

 

[LegoGE1947]

You’re already off the rails.

Well I believe the Bible is clearly abundant!

 

[dronald]

The Third Commandment is not a “disputable matter”. Nor are the Sacraments. Eat whatever you want, but worship the Lord as He commands.

And I will certainly continue to follow my God and His commandments with all my heart, soul and strength. You’ll certainly be in my prayers as I look deeper into getting closer with my God. I’ve never heard that I’m breaking the third commandment by worshiping my God, singing songs to Him, raising my hands to Him and praying earnestly to Him. Therefore I’ll pray that you continue to not judge your brother as he walks in His faith with God.

God bless!

(By the way, can I get a second opinion on all Evangelicals sinning and can be judged by their brothers based on their way of worship without any knowledge of where that persons heart is?)

 

[JustaServant]

And I will certainly continue to follow my God and His commandments with all my heart, soul and strength. You’ll certainly be in my prayers as I look deeper into getting closer with my God. I’ve never heard that I’m breaking the third commandment by worshiping my God, singing songs to Him, raising my hands to Him and praying earnestly to Him. Therefore I’ll pray that you continue to not judge your brother as he walks in His faith with God.

God bless!

(By the way, can I get a second opinion on all Evangelicals sinning and can be judged by their brothers based on their way of worship without any knowledge of where that persons heart is?)

First of all, get off the “judging” kick. That’s usually the route people go when they don’t have an answer.
Second, we are to worship as GOD directs, not as WE direct. I would suggest you look up the words for “worship” in both Hebrew and Greek. Guess what? It doesn’t mean sitting and staring at a singer on stage.

 

[AbideWithMe]

First of all, get off the “judging” kick. That’s usually the route people go when they don’t have an answer.
Second, we are to worship as GOD directs, not as WE direct. I would suggest you look up the words for “worship” in both Hebrew and Greek. Guess what? It doesn’t mean sitting and staring at a singer on stage.

Sheesh…another Evangelical -bashing thread at CAF. What a surprise.

After 46 years in “normal” sized Evangelical churches, not mega-churches (which have their own set of unique pitfalls and weakness, and should not be held as a standard to assess all Evangelical churches by) I agree with many things dronald has said. I don’t think he’s on a “judging” kick.

There’s been an unexpected death in my family, otherwise I’d be contributing some answers to this thread. I’m stressed out, I admit, by family concerns, and I’m disgusted with CAF at this point, so I’m out of here for awhile.

 

[ltwin]

First of all, get off the “judging” kick. That’s usually the route people go when they don’t have an answer.
Second, we are to worship as GOD directs, not as WE direct. I would suggest you look up the words for “worship” in both Hebrew and Greek. Guess what? It doesn’t mean sitting and staring at a singer on stage.

Uhm . . . . need I state the obvious? Neither does it mean standing and staring at a priest recite a liturgy.

I guess different people have different ideas as to how to pretend to worship.

 

[Jon_S_1]

Sheesh…another Evangelical -bashing thread at CAF. What a surprise.

After 46 years in “normal” sized Evangelical churches, not mega-churches (which have their own set of unique pitfalls and weakness, and should not be held as a standard to assess all Evangelical churches by) I agree with many things dronald has said. I don’t think he’s on a “judging” kick.

There’s been an unexpected death in my family, otherwise I’d be contributing some answers to this thread. I’m stressed out, I admit, by family concerns, and I’m disgusted with CAF at this point, so I’m out of here for awhile.

How is it Evangelical Bashing to share my experience? I clearly stated it was my experience in large evangelical churches. I would be happy to hear about your church that does not idolize the pastor and worship leader, that focuses on God and serving the community above building buildings and putting on shows.

I am including you in my prayers today for your family tragedy and I seriously would love the opportunity to hear about your experience.

I think what you see here is not so much Evangelical bashing, but excitement over new found Catholic Worship and liturgy and finding the fullness of Biblical truth.

God Bless,

Jon

 

[Jon_S_1]

Uhm . . . . need I state the obvious? Neither does it mean standing and staring at a priest recite a liturgy.

I guess different people have different ideas as to how to pretend to worship.

That clearly shows you do not understand what mass is. We don’t go there for the priest. The priest often change parishes anyway and the congregation stays anyway. The mass is a participation. It allows for singing/worship, asking forgiveness of sins, worship, prayer, community, and partaking in the Eucharist. Mass allows for authentic reflection and realignment with God. It is not about the music that we like most, or the pastor with the best sermons. It is about God.

 

[AbideWithMe]

Irenaeus

“He [Jesus] came to save all through himself; all, I say, who through him are reborn in God: infants, and children, and youths, and old men. Therefore he passed through every age, becoming an infant for infants, sanctifying infants; a child for children, sanctifying those who are of that age . . . [so that] he might be the perfect teacher in all things, perfect not only in respect to the setting forth of truth, perfect also in respect to relative age” (Against Heresies 2:22:4 [A.D. 189]).

I wouldn’t use this particular snippet from Irenaeus in apologetics to support infant baptism, since, IIRC, in context Irenaeus isn’t talking about baptism at all. Rather, he’s trying to make a case for his (strange) assertion that Christ died as an older man, in His 40’s or 50’s. Christ sanctified infants by experiencing infancy, in Irenaeus’ thought here.

I think, going by my experience, most Evangelicals believe infants are already going to heaven if they die in infancy, so we don’t believe unbaptised infants are endangered.

 

[ltwin]

That clearly shows you do not understand what mass is. We don’t go there for the priest. The priest often change parishes anyway and the congregation stays anyway. The mass is a participation. It allows for singing/worship, asking forgiveness of sins, worship, prayer, community, and partaking in the Eucharist. Mass allows for authentic reflection and realignment with God. It is not about the music that we like most, or the pastor with the best sermons. It is about God.

I understand perfectly what an ideal mass is supposed to be like. I also understand that there is a difference between the ideal and the reality. Unfortunately, some seem to think that all Catholics walk into mass in a perfect state of mind, worshipping our Lord in spirit and in truth, and all Protestants walk into their church service just wanting to be entertained.

 

[AbideWithMe]

That clearly shows you do not understand what mass is. We don’t go there for the priest. The priest often change parishes anyway and the congregation stays anyway. The mass is a participation. It allows for singing/worship, asking forgiveness of sins, worship, prayer, community, and partaking in the Eucharist. Mass allows for authentic reflection and realignment with God. It is not about the music that we like most, or the pastor with the best sermons. It is about God.

Gotta get back to work, but Jon, you’ve just described my 46 years in Evangelical churches!

Like Donald, I’ve glad you’ve found a good home in the Catholic church. There’s no need to over-generalize about Ev. churches as you have in previous posts, though.

Thank you very much for your prayers!

 

[AbideWithMe]

I understand perfectly what an ideal mass is supposed to be like. I also understand that there is a difference between the ideal and the reality. Unfortunately, some seem to think that all Catholics walk into mass in a perfect state of mind and all Protestants walk into their church service just wanting to be entertained.

Yes.

Jon, I often see Catholics here grousing and complaining about their church services. Church, and worship, is what we make it. I’ve never felt entertained by a Ev. service. I go to church to worship God in a community with my brothers and sisters in Christ.

 

[Nicea325]

I wouldn’t use this particular snippet from Irenaeus in apologetics to support infant baptism, since, IIRC, in context Irenaeus isn’t talking about baptism at all. Rather, he’s trying to make a case for his (strange) assertion that Christ died as an older man, in His 40’s or 50’s. Christ sanctified infants by experiencing infancy, in Irenaeus’ thought here.

I think, going by my experience, most Evangelicals believe infants are already going to heaven if they die in infancy,** so we don’t believe unbaptised infants are endangered**.

So at what age does one to be baptized,because they are in danger? No offense,but seems as though certain rules are being applied depending on the individual’s state?

 

[Nicea325]

Uhm . . . . need I state the obvious? Neither does it mean standing and staring at a priest recite a liturgy.

I guess different people have different ideas as to how to pretend to worship.

No offense,but there is a big difference in the role of a priest in all ancient liturgical churches as oppose to a non-Catholic pastor (preacher).

 

[ltwin]

No offense,but there is a big difference in the role of a priest in all ancient liturgical churches as oppose to a non-Catholic pastor (preacher).

And the role of the priest was not the point of my comment. My point was the double standard that some commenters appear to be applying between Catholic and Protestant “worshippers.”