For those who were or are Evangelical. Is being saved more important than Baptism?

[AbideWithMe]

As such, wouldn’t you want to take the more conservative view of those items, the narrower road so to speak?!

I’m not sure what you mean, Jon. If you have time, please explain how you’re thinking about this.

It’s East Coast bedtime, people. :yawn:

 

[Jon_S_1]

Since Paul uses the “adoption as sons” analogy, is it possible to give me an answer using that picture–I’m a very visual thinker. I’ve been taught to think of salvation not in either/or terms (either a once time event or a process) but both/and terms (both an initial adoption and a maturing to be fit to behold the face of God, the weight of glory).

How very Catholic of you!! We love the both/and of things!

 

[PRmerger]

Since Paul uses the “adoption as sons” analogy, is it possible to give me an answer using that picture–I’m a very visual thinker. I’ve been taught to think of salvation not in either/or terms (either a once time event or a process) but both/and terms (both an initial adoption and a maturing to be fit to behold the face of God, the weight of glory).

I am not able to answer this with a picture because I am not a visual thinker. Sorry. At least, I don’t think I’m a visual thinker. Not really sure what that means except that a visual thinker thinks in pictures?

If that’s what it means, I don’t have any pictures that I can call to mind.

 

[Jon_S_1]

I’m not sure what you mean, Jon. If you have time, please explain how you’re thinking about this.

It’s East Coast bedtime, people. :yawn:

I was sort of thinking of Pascal’s Wager as it relates to this. Are you familiar with that? If not you can read it here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal’s_Wager

So along those lines,

If Baptism is merely a symbol, then you lose nothing by being baptized, but if it is part of the salvation process and you do not do it, then you lose everything as it has eternal ramifications.

If to return to God, Confession of your sins to a priest is required. Then you lose everything eternally by not doing it, and if all that is required is a mental affirmation of God, to return to his graces, you do not lose that by going to confession .

so you lose everything if you are wrong, but we lose nothing other than some of our time and effort if you are right.

Hopefully that makes sense. When you couple it with the fact that both of these items are easily defensible with Scripture verses and the Christian Tradition, it is honestly pretty gutsy to hold your position.

Hopefully that makes sense.

 

[Jon_S_1]

Since Paul uses the “adoption as sons” analogy, is it possible to give me an answer using that picture–I’m a very visual thinker. I’ve been taught to think of salvation not in either/or terms (either a once time event or a process) but both/and terms (both an initial adoption and a maturing to be fit to behold the face of God, the weight of glory).

I am not super visual, and Catholics jump in if I screw this up, but I will give it a try.

Jesus died and redeemed all humanity…opened the doors to heaven as a possibility.

This could be like, the adoption system put in place legally in a country.

We are baptized and start our walk with God (lasts our earthly life)

This is like being placed being claimed for adoption, but the paperwork and details still have to work out, and of course, we can say we don’t want to be adopted)

We die and enter the beatific vision

This would be the Adoption is Final and the only point along the road where you KNOW that you are actually adopted.

I am sure this is a lacking analogy in several ways, but it may work enough to help you visualize what he is talking about.

 

[guanophore]

You claim that Catholics are no more “not permitted” to believe certain things than I am “not permitted” to believe certain things. The Council of Trent disagrees, and the Magisterial practice of delivering anathemas in general effectively negates your claim.

On the contrary, the anathemas of the Church, from NT times until today, affirm this very fact. Each person is able to choose their course. What anathemas do is give guidance to the faithful, so that they know if they choose that course, they will excommunicate themselves from the Church founded by Christ.

“If anyone shall say that real and natural water is not necessary for baptism, and on that account those words of our Lord Jesus Christ, ‘Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit’ [John 3:5], are distorted into some sort of metaphor, let him be anathema” (Canons on the Sacrament of Baptism, 2).

Trent.

Where do you see that a person does not have a choice? One is permitted to embrace heresies. The Council specifies what the consequences will be.

  Do you know what an anathema is? It's the Magisterium saying Catholics are not permitted to believe thus and such. It happens sometimes. This is one of those times.

No. Anathema means that, by embracing such a belief, a person has separated himself from the communion of the Church. Of course the Church will give guidance as to what constitutes the Apostolic faith, and what does not. This is the duty of the Church.

Do you confirm or deny that this is one of those times?

Might have missed part of the conversation. Are you talking about baptism?

 

[guanophore]

among other things, Catholics are not permitted to believe what I believe concerning baptism.

Yes. To do so would create a loss of Catholicity. If a person rejects the Apostolic teaching on baptism, one has embraced “a different gospel”, and that is what leaves one in the position of “anathema”.

We are not at liberty to change any of what has been passed down to us from the Apostles.

 

[guanophore]

It's a bit late in this thread to ask this, but can somebody defined "saved" and "salvation"

for me, so I know we’re using the words to mean the same thing?

I don’t think it is ever too late to ask that question!

As an Evangelical, I have consistently been taught that we are adopted into God’s family and the Holy Spirit is given to us as a seal. This adoption as sons is a one time event, in that God will not kick us out of His family—He has chosen us and will not change His mind. We are indelibly marked by the Holy Spirit, and now bear God’s name.

Yes, this is consistent with what the Apostles believed and taught. The only difference might be that they taught this adoption occurs in baptism, and they never separated baptism/seal in the HS from the water in which it occurred. This separation occurred during the Reformation.

We may choose to leave and walk away from God’s family, and if we never turn around during the remainder of our lives, God will allow us to be separated from Himself eternally.

Yes. Like the prodigal son did not lose his identity as his father’s son, if he had not come to himself and repented, he would have died in the pig stye, separated from his father’s house.

We may also choose to remain immature members of God’s family. I remember one pastor years ago talking about “Be perfect, as Your Heavenly Father is perfect”; wherein perfect (teleos? in Greek) doesn’t mean “Make no mistakes” but “Grow up, mature, grow to meet your end”. This part of salvation now is a process, somewhat akin to what the Orthodox call theosis.

Yes, this is also consistent with the apostolic faith. Catholics call it sanctification , but theosis is also used by Eastern Catholics for the same concept.

If we refuse to one degree or another to mature (and I think most of us do refuse to mature to lesser or greater degrees in one or more ways), we are still members of His family, in that we have not completely rejected and turned away from God.

The issue is whether or not one is a member in good standing. The prodigal son was a member, sure, but was lost with the pigs in a foreign land. It won’t do a person any good to have the seal of adoption while they are passing through the gates of hell. Being a member of the family does not necessarily mean you will be united to the inheritance that is kept imperishable in heaven.

Okay, folks, pick this apart! Be nice!

That can be asking a lot around here sometimes.

 

[PRmerger]

I am not super visual, and Catholics jump in if I screw this up, but I will give it a try.

Jesus died and redeemed all humanity…opened the doors to heaven as a possibility.

This could be like, the adoption system put in place legally in a country.

We are baptized and start our walk with God (lasts our earthly life)

This is like being placed being claimed for adoption, but the paperwork and details still have to work out, and of course, we can say we don’t want to be adopted)

We die and enter the beatific vision

This would be the Adoption is Final and the only point along the road where you KNOW that you are actually adopted.

 

[AbideWithMe]

I was sort of thinking of Pascal’s Wager as it relates to this. Are you familiar with that? If not you can read it here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal’s_Wager

So along those lines,

If Baptism is merely a symbol, then you lose nothing by being baptized, but if it is part of the salvation process and you do not do it, then you lose everything as it has eternal ramifications.

If to return to God, Confession of your sins to a priest is required. Then you lose everything eternally by not doing it, and if all that is required is a mental affirmation of God, to return to his graces, you do not lose that by going to confession .

so you lose everything if you are wrong, but we lose nothing other than some of our time and effort if you are right.

Hopefully that makes sense. When you couple it with the fact that both of these items are easily defensible with Scripture verses and the Christian Tradition, it is honestly pretty gutsy to hold your position.

Hopefully that makes sense.

Yes, I’m familiar with Pascal’s wager. Hmm, I get what you’re saying, but it’s not really a way of thinking about our relationship with God that I would follow myself. To be honest, it seems to me to have a tinge of doing something to “save one’s own skin” more so than from love of God and man. Maybe I’m just not quite getting you.

 

[AbideWithMe]

Thanks for the replies, Jon, PRMerger and Guanophore.

 

[guanophore]

Yes, I’m familiar with Pascal’s wager. Hmm, I get what you’re saying, but it’s not really a way of thinking about our relationship with God that I would follow myself. To be honest, it seems to me to have a tinge of doing something to “save one’s own skin” more so than from love of God and man. Maybe I’m just not quite getting you.

What is so bad about doing something to save one’s own skin? God created us with this instinct, and He responds to it with grace.

Acts 2:40-42
40 And he testified with many other arguments and exhorted them, saying, “**Save yourselves **from this corrupt generation.” 41 So those who welcomed his message were baptized, and that day about three thousand persons were added. 42 They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers.

We love Him because He first loved us. As we grow, we become more able to act out of selflessness.

Thanks for the replies, Jon, PRMerger and Guanophore.

I hope you will continue to abide with us.

 

[Jon_S_1]

Yes, I’m familiar with Pascal’s wager. Hmm, I get what you’re saying, but it’s not really a way of thinking about our relationship with God that I would follow myself. To be honest, it seems to me to have a tinge of doing something to “save one’s own skin” more so than from love of God and man. Maybe I’m just not quite getting you.

Of course this argument is at the most fundamental and primitive level. Ideally you participate out of love for God rather than fear from hell, but regardless I believe the argument is valid.

You say “it seems to me to have a tinge of doing something to save one’s own skin”

I must say that rather you participate in the sacraments, or say the sinners prayer, or allow your faith to grow and show your faith with charity to others, you are “doing something” for salvation.

The church practiced Confession and Baptism for Salvation, for 1500 years before it was ever questioned. So maybe we could do the wager this way.

If the reformers were correct in their thinking on these issues as described earlier, then for 1500 years people sought God in more ways than they needed to. This ultimately probably lead them to closer communion with him but they were mistaken in the necessity of these sacraments.

If the reformers however are wrong regarding the necessity of Baptism and Confession, they have led millions astray.

So really why not believe in the saving power of these sacraments as Christians have for 2,000 years now?

Think about how much Authority you are giving yourself and the reformers who paved the way for you. You essentially give them the authority of a Prophet, since what they taught is in such sharp contrast to what Christians practiced since the time of Christ. Note EVERY Apostolic Church believes in these two Sacraments as well as Holy Eucharist.

Keep Pondering!!

 

[berk60]

Okay,not to step on your toes,but do you not acknowledge a hypocrisy exist with such a position? You stated one must repent in order to be baptized-correct? In essence, one must make an intellectual decision-correct? Therefore, it is an either/or dichotomy or there are no exceptions to the rule?

God Bless

Who does the urging to repent and seek salvation? Since hhere is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.They have all turned aside.

 

[Jon_S_1]

Who does the urging to repent and seek salvation? Since hhere is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.They have all turned aside.

Can you elaborate a bit? This is too cryptic to formulate a response. Thanks!

 

[Nicea325]

Who does the urging to repent and seek salvation? Since hhere is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.They have all turned aside.

So one must be capable of making an intellectual decision-correct? So it is apparent its an either/or situation in regards how your community of faith determines who “qualifies” for baptism?

 

[guanophore]

Who does the urging to repent and seek salvation? Since hhere is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.They have all turned aside.

You are taking this passage out of context, so the meaning gets distorted. It is a reference to those who reject God. It does not mean that everyone HAS to reject God. We are all called to repent and seek salvation, and we are all given the grace to do so.

Rom 3:11-12
11 there is no one who has understanding,
there is no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned aside, together they have become worthless;

Paul is making the point that Jews are no better off than Gentiles. If they are faithless Jews, they reject God.

If you look at the verses after this one in the Psalm:

Ps 5:9-6:1

9 For there is no truth in their mouths;
their hearts are destruction;
their throats are open graves;
they flatter with their tongues.
10 Make them bear their guilt, O God;
let them fall by their own counsels;
because of their many transgressions cast them out,
for they have rebelled against you.

11 **But let all who take refuge in you rejoice;
let them ever sing for joy.
Spread your protection over them,
so that those who love your name may exult in you.
12 For you bless the righteous, O LORD;
you cover them with favor as with a shield. **

It is clear that there are righteous, those that bless His name, and He covers them with favor as with a shield.

 

[Nicea325]

You are taking this passage out of context, so the meaning gets distorted. It is a reference to those who reject God. It does not mean that everyone HAS to reject God. We are all called to repent and seek salvation, and we are all given the grace to do so.

Rom 3:11-12
11 there is no one who has understanding,
there is no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned aside, together they have become worthless;

Paul is making the point that Jews are no better off than Gentiles. If they are faithless Jews, they reject God.

If you look at the verses after this one in the Psalm:

Ps 5:9-6:1

9 For there is no truth in their mouths;
their hearts are destruction;
their throats are open graves;
they flatter with their tongues.
10 Make them bear their guilt, O God;
let them fall by their own counsels;
because of their many transgressions cast them out,
for they have rebelled against you.

11 **But let all who take refuge in you rejoice;
let them ever sing for joy.
Spread your protection over them,
so that those who love your name may exult in you.
12 For you bless the righteous, O LORD;
you cover them with favor as with a shield. **

It is clear that there are righteous, those that bless His name, and He covers them with favor as with a shield.