Force feeding in Guantanemo

  • Thread starter Thread starter stadre
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
40.png
gilliam:
Re-read the convention. Even if they were uniformed soldiers they would not be charged in a court of law. Instead they are held. Just like in Guantanemo.

I’m sorry you don’t like it, but that is the way in war. You have prisoners and you keep them separated from the combatants until the conflict is over.
So your position is that the Geneva Convention allows us to force feed detainees through their stomach? You read it.

Iraq is a war. But this “war on terror?” That’s declaring “war” on a tactic and saying that until the tactic is gone, we are at war. Neat trick. As if we were to declare war on “flanking maneuvers.”

Our government has created this notion of an endless war and can then hold these people in perpetuity. If that’s the case, either charge them or let them die. It’s sick to do otherwise.
 
40.png
Thekla:
So your position is that the Geneva Convention allows us to force feed detainees through their stomach? You read it.
So it’s your position we should just let them starve themselves?
Iraq is a war. But this “war on terror?” That’s declaring “war” on a tactic and saying that until the tactic is gone, we are at war. Neat trick.
More disordered thinking.
As if we were to declare war on “flanking maneuvers.”
Another fallacious argument.
Our government has created this notion of an endless war and can then hold these people in perpetuity. If that’s the case, either charge them or let them die. It’s sick to do otherwise.
I’m praying for you, Thekla. I hope you will disavow yourself of this disordered thinking.
 
40.png
thestickman:
I think it’s great we’re doing all we can to prevent these people from starving themselves. I support it 100%.
Force feeding in this situation is called torture.

Here is the section on force feeding from Wikipedia…

Force-feeding of humans is oftenly done to prisoners, to prevent them dying as part of a hunger strike. This happened in the case of the suffragettes and "
Special Category Status*" (paramilitary) prisoners in Northern Ireland, and is frequently [1][2] used in U.S. prison in Guantanamo Bay. Force-feeding is often categorised as torture, as it may be extremely painful and result in severe bleeding and spreading of various diseases via the exchanged blood and mucus, especially when conducted with dirty equipment on a prison population. *[3]

Force-feeding of humans was a common practice in the USSR. A brief, first account experience of a force-feeding session given by Vladimir Bukovsky describes the procedure in detail: “The feeding pipe was thick, thicker than my nostril, and would not go in. Blood came gushing out of my nose and tears down my cheeks, but they kept pushing until the cartilages cracked. I guess I would have screamed if I could, but I could not with the pipe in my throat. I could breathe neither in nor out at first; I wheezed like a drowning man – my lungs felt ready to burst. The doctor also seemed ready to burst into tears, but she kept shoving the pipe farther and farther down. Only when it reached my stomach could I resume breathing, carefully. Then she poured some slop through a funnel into the pipe that would choke me if it came back up. They held me down for another half-hour so that the liquid was absorbed by my stomach and could not be vomited back, and then began to pull the pipe out bit by bit.” [4] Large feeding pipes are traditionally used on hunger striking prisoners [5], whereas thin pipes are preferred in hospitals.
 
40.png
Thekla:
I don’t think that I’m the one that needs to read the Geneva Convention. If people have committed crimes against the United States, then charge them. But to abuse people for a time and then to let them go on the basis that they are “no longer” a threat to the US?

But we have destroyed our credibility worldwide on the issue of human rights and have gone against our own best judgment. In the last 5 years, we have invaded a nation under false pretenses, engaged in the torture and abuse of both terrorists and innocents, held American citizens without lawyers and charges, and are now force feeding human beings who have not been convicted of any crimes.

We are at war in Iraq and we should be at war with al Qaeda. But a war on terror? Our government uses it to create crises rather than solve problems. I find these actions sick.
I find it just as disgusting and sick that you would let terrorists go who could harm more Americans. I find it just as disgusting and sick that you would let a terrorist get out of serving his sentences (he will be charged once the war is over if he is still a threat, that’s how it goes) by killing himself. I find it just as disgusting and sick that you keep on spreading lies like “we have invaded a nation under false pretenses” (you have heard of Iraq’s No. 2 general which just came out and said “the weapons were moved to Syria” and Bill Clinton who said “we cannot dismiss the possibility that the weapons went to Syria or other Middle Eastern countries” (paraphrasing of course)). 3 strikes you’re out. Now maybe you can quit trolling these forums.
 
40.png
gnjsdad:
Force feeding in this situation is called torture.
Only in a disordered mind can it be called torture to force-feed someone intent on starving to death.
Here is the section on force feeding from Wikipedia…
Ah yes, the bastion of inaccuracy, Wikipedia.
 
40.png
gnjsdad:
Force feeding in this situation is called torture…
No it isn’t. You, or Wikipedia have got things a bit mixed up (which is why Wikipedia should not be used as a definitive source). It is common practice, and considered humain, in most prisons in the Western world, including US prisons, that when prisoners start to go on a hunger strike to try to get something that the law does not permit them to have (like to get out before their sentance is up) and they start to endanger their own lives, that they are force fed so they don’t do harm to themselves. Same would be true if they made themselves a knife and threatened to kill themselves. The guards would be expected to restrain them and take the knife away. If they managed to cut themselves, the guards would be expected to care for their wounds and not let them bleed to death.

I realize this is a political issue but distorting the facts like saying this case is similar to cases where dirty equipment is used on patients, doesn’t help.
 
If I remember correctly, non-uniformed combatants in previous wars were called spies and were summarily executed. We try to do the right thing but some people can’t see past their hatred for Bush and recognize it.
 
40.png
geezerbob:
If I remember correctly, non-uniformed combatants in previous wars were called spies and were summarily executed. We try to do the right thing but some people can’t see past their hatred for Bush and recognize it.
Terrible things happen in the middle of a war; on the field of combat. But I don’t believe that we were summarily executing POW’s. Or at least, under our own rules, we weren’t supposed to be.

But we are not talking about things happening and snap decisions being made on the field of combat. We are talking about well-thought out decisions being made by the highest leadership in our government.
 
**General Reminder:

**The charity level of this discussion appears to be deteriorating. Please self-edit for tone and content before clicking the “Submit” button. If the charity level does not improve, this thread will have to be locked. Thank you for your understanding and cooperation.
 
Robert Bay said:
**General Reminder:

**The charity level of this discussion appears to be deteriorating. Please self-edit for tone and content before clicking the “Submit” button. If the charity level does not improve, this thread will have to be locked. Thank you for your understanding and cooperation.

Since I’ve requested my account be suspended. I might as well get my $$'s worth, eh?

LIBERALISM IS A MENTAL DISORDER. Robert Bay doesn’t want anyone to say so in these forums. But it won’t change the reality. It won’t make Wikipedia a valid source of information and it won’t change the fact America has freed 50 million people in the last few years:)

God Bless the Catholic Church
God Bless America
May God soon eradicate Aids and liberalism.
And may censorship never be permitted.

best of luck to you all.

God Bless:)
 
40.png
Thekla:
Terrible things happen in the middle of a war; on the field of combat. But I don’t believe that we were summarily executing POW’s. Or at least, under our own rules, we weren’t supposed to be.

But we are not talking about things happening and snap decisions being made on the field of combat. We are talking about well-thought out decisions being made by the highest leadership in our government.
My point was that non-uniformed combatants don’t qualify for POW status and that the treatment they are receiving is much better than they probably deserve and better than would be provided by all but a few other countries.
 
40.png
gilliam:
No it isn’t.
Yes it is.
40.png
gilliam:
You, or Wikipedia have got things a bit mixed up (which is why Wikipedia should not be used as a definitive source).
Can you vouch for the complete 100% accuracy of your sources? Because the complete accuracy of *Wikipedia *is sometimes questioned, that means nothing in there is of any value? What part of my citation is not accurate?
40.png
gilliam:
It is common practice, and considered humain, in most prisons in the Western world, including US prisons, that when prisoners start to go on a hunger strike to try to get something that the law does not permit them to have (like to get out before their sentance is up)
These people are protesting their indefinite detention with charge or trial.

It used to be common practice in the US to at least charge those detained. Also, what happened to the right to a speedy trial. Many of these people have been detained without even being charged with a crime going on 4 1/2 years now.
40.png
gilliam:
I realize this is a political issue but distorting the facts like saying this case is similar to cases where dirty equipment is used on patients, doesn’t help.
And can you verify that this is NOT being done?
 
40.png
gnjsdad:
Force feeding in this situation is called torture.
Show me one treaty in which it is called “torture”. I bet you can’t. You rely on Wikipedia for your information, which IMO, is a very bad idea.
 
40.png
thestickman:
I think it’s great we’re doing all we can to prevent these people from starving themselves. I support it 100%.
Hunger strikes are a form of protest, expressing your Democratic right of Freedom of Speech, which may be hindered, orotherwise ignored.

Examples:
Mahatma Gandhi, India.
Bobby Sands, N.Ireland (I don’t support Republicanism, or the IRA)
The sufferagettes.

Shall I go on, or will I allow you to hinder someone’s Democratic right, whether they’re “Death Row” as stated in the post above you, or not?

Gnjsdad hit the nail on the head: “These people are protesting their indefinite detention with charge or trial.”

I believe when you’re being ignored and indefinately detained, without trial, or even without proof to the outside world (Was Britain incorrect in, when recieving their nationals back, releasing them, and America right in indefinately detaining them without trial?)

This is a valid protest, and forcing someone to stop is hindering their democratic rights. Oh, I can guess your response to this, but I’ll go one step ahead: As you’re from a country advocating democracy, it is your duty to uphold it properly and lawfully, no matter who it is you’re dealing with.
 
40.png
gilliam:
I realize this is a political issue but distorting the facts like saying this case is similar to cases where dirty equipment is used on patients, doesn’t help.
gilliam,

You said, “It is common practice, and considered humain, in most prisons in the Western world, including US prisons, that when prisoners start to go on a hunger strike to try to get something that the law does not permit them to have (like to get out before their sentance is up) and they start to endanger their own lives, that they are force fed so they don’t do harm to themselves.”

Where do you get that it is either “common practice” or considered “humane?” I haven’t seen any evidence of US prisoners who have been convicted of a crime and are on a hunger strike being forcibly fed through a tube. Can you give some examples? Better yet, can you give some examples of individuals in the US who have not been convicted, but only charged with a crime? Also, could you give an example of a person detained but not charged or convicted that was forcibly fed through a tube?

The UN has tried to send it’s “torture” expert down to investigate, but Rumsfeld said no. “Manfred Nowak, the U.N.'s special “rapporteur” on torture, has asked Rumsfeld for permission to bring a team of U.N. human rights investigators to Guantánamo to interview the prisoners.” Rumsfeld knows that his practices cannot withstand strong light.

Thekla
 
Thekla,

It should be noted that we are NOT obliged to follow the Geneva convention with these combatants. To quote from the convention:

Although one of the Powers in conflict may not be a party to the present Convention, the Powers who are parties thereto shall remain bound by it in their mutual relations. They shall furthermore be bound by the Convention in relation to the said Power, if the latter accepts and applies the provisions thereof. (Geneva Convention relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War part 1 article 2)

The enemy does not follow most of the provisions of the convention (in fact they proudly violate the treatment of prisoner provisions and other provisions). And, of course, they don’t wear uniforms, etc.

The “watchdog” agency at Geronimo is the International Committee of the Red Cross who gives reports to the Pentagon. That is also part of the Convention (see article 3 section 2). The UN’s interference is not part of the convention.

FORCED FEEDING REFERENCE

Grand Jury Subpoena John Doe v. United States, 150
F.3d 170 (2d Cir. 1998)


John Doe was a civil contemnor committed for refusing to testify before a grand jury despite being granted immunity. He began a hunger strike for political and religious reasons on the first day of his confinement. Within eight days his health deteriorated to the point that his life was in danger. As a result, the federal district court ordered his force feeding and Doe appealed. Relying on a number of federal and state court decisions upholding force feeding of prisoners in similar circumstances, the Second Circuit Court of Appeals affirmed the district court’s order. “{W}e, like the majority of courts that have considered the question, hold that such an order does not violate a hunger-striking prisoner’s constitutional rights. See, e.g., Martinez v. Turner, 977 F.2d 421, 423 (8th Cir. 1992), cert. denied, 507 U.S. 1009, 113 S.Ct. 1658, 123 L.Ed. 277 (1993); In re Caulk, 125 N.H. 226, 480 A.2d 93 (1984); Von Holden v. Chapman, 87 A.D.2d 66, 450 N.Y.S.2d 623 (4th Dept. 1982); State v. Vogel, 537 N.W.2d 358 (N.D. 1995); Commonwealth v. Kallinger, 134 Pa.Cmwlth. 415, 580 A.2d 887 (1990); Laurie v. Senecal, 666 A.2d 806 (R.I. 1995); *cf. *Commissioner of Correction v. Myers, 379 Mass. 255, 399 N.E.2d 452 (1979). Although Doe, as a civil contemnor, has been convicted of no crime, the institution where he is housed is still responsible for his care while incarcerated. Other compelling governmental interests, such as preservation of life, prevention of suicide, and enforcement of prison security, order, and discipline, outweigh the constitutional rights asserted by Doe in the circumstances of this case.”
 
Thekla said:
"

It’s hard to explain how sick I think that we as a nation have become. These people are being detained by the US government without charges or, apparently, any rights. Hundreds have been released and never charged.

But to take human beings and strap them down and force feed them?

All of those imprisioned were captured while fighting against US Troops. Thats not exactly the kind of person you take down to the courthouse and book-it has never been dione that way by any country involved in a war. The former administration tried the “lets hanlde terrorsits in the criminal justice system” procedure and it failed miserably. Do you suggest that we have roving bands of JPs in a war zone , ready to book every enemy combatant captured?

If the detained enemy combatants starved to death you would be the first in line telling us how sick it is that our country allowed these people to die.
 
40.png
gilliam:
No it isn’t. You, or Wikipedia have got things a bit mixed up (which is why Wikipedia should not be used as a definitive source).
I realize this is a political issue but distorting the facts like saying this case is similar to cases where dirty equipment is used on patients, doesn’t help.
I could go to wikepedia today and change the entry to read that force feeding is a humanitraian act and is praised by all.

Someone else could come in later and chage it to read force feeding is a gross violation of ones freedoom of speech/

Thats the proble m with Wikepedia-it is a compilation of opinion-not facts, try using it as a source in a credible research paper and you will be laughed out of your profession-try using it as a source for a college paper and you will get an F.
 
40.png
gilliam:
Thekla,

It should be noted that we are NOT obliged to follow the Geneva convention with these combatants. To quote from the convention:
gilliam,
I’m going back to look over what you wrote, but you are the one who first brought up holding them in perpetuity under the Geneva Convention. Then you point out that we aren’t obliged to follow them. Doesn’t that sound contradictory to you?

As for the Red Cross, their reports aren’t supposed to be public. That’s why Rumsfeld won’t let the UN guy on torture in; because his report would be made public.
Thekla
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top