Forcing Morality on Others

  • Thread starter Thread starter OrangeOwl
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
K

*Moral principles explain why homosexuality, for instance, is said to be wrong, but they don’t explain our thinking that it is wrong. In this instance, we have moral principles, but no moral facts. *

How do you distinguish between a moral principle and a moral fact? :confused:
 
How do you distinguish between a moral principle and a moral fact? :confused:
Exactly. There aren’t moral facts about the world the way there are facts about the composition of a molecule. Moral principles are ethical edicts we construct to guide our thinking and acting “in the right way.” Our moral principles can be wrong though.
 
K

Exactly. There aren’t moral facts about the world the way there are facts about the composition of a molecule.

Well, I don’t know anyone who would disagree with this. But there are still moral facts, aren’t there?

Can you give an example of a moral fact, and then an example of a moral principle, so I can see what you mean by the difference?

Or are you saying there are no such things as moral facts?

I would certainly agree that a moral principle can be wrong. Would you agree with me that a moral principle can be right?
 
Or are you saying there are no such things as moral facts?
I’m saying there are no such things.
I would certainly agree that a moral principle can be wrong. Would you agree with me that a moral principle can be right?
I should have qualified this. I would agree that moral principles can be “right” and “wrong” in a relative sense.
 
K

***I should have qualified this. I would agree that moral principles can be “right” and “wrong” in a relative sense. ***

Do you mean that there is no act that is always wrong, and no other act that is always right?

Or do you mean each person gets to decide for himself what is morally right and morally wrong?

If so, how would you know this for a fact?
 
It seems to me that there are some false premises in the OP’s concerns that she raises.

The first one is that morality is confined to religious creeds (institutionally or privately), and that thus civil society is by definition amoral (or should be). If this were true, only believers could claim a moral orientation, but we know that is not true. There are plenty of atheists and agnostics who make moral arguments on public issues. Similarly, politicians, and journalists writing about issues, concern themselves often with what is explicitly “moral.” They refer to that on the House and Senate floor - and I’m not referring to Life issues here, but issues such as jobs, war, and more. Congressional hearings are especially surrounded with moral language, such as in discussions of corporate responsibility toward individuals and society. Do you think that when a newspaper columnist decries Wall Street deception or Real Estate foreclosure practices as “immoral,” he or she is speaking from a religious point of view? The entire recent economic/governmental crisis in Wisconsin was framed by many secular commentators as a moral crisis in addition to a practical one. Accessibility to adequate education is most often characterized by secularists as a moral issue. Is that enough? (Not being sarcastic, just don’t want to belabor what should be obvious to all of us, I think.)

It is actually a fairly contemporary development, relatively speaking, that morality has been shifted & confined to religious institutions. It began in earnest about 35 years ago, and became a much more aggressive effort during the '80’s and '90s. And that has happened more from the Left, less from the Right, although frankly both the Right and the Left do it: The Right sometimes to evade corporate responsibility, the Left often to evade private responsibility. But in any case, this being an era which pursues unlimited guilt-free pleasure, naturally those most interested in protecting that pursuit are also the ones most interested in silencing the voices of morality (because moral constructs imply limits).

This brings me to the second false premise: that our society permits, would permit, the “forcing” of a specifically religious (sectarian-identified, such as Catholic, Mormon, Jewish) morality. Advocating is not forcing. We have freedom of religion in this country, not freedom from religion. It means that religions can express a viewpoint – yes, a moral viewpoint – in the public square, about public issues which affect everyone or merely someones in society. They get to do that, despite the annoyance it may cause anyone. We will never be a theocracy; we certainly are not in danger of becoming one in the near future. We are, however, increasingly in danger of the dictatorship of relativism (which eviscerates morality, being that the definitions are forever shifting and subjective). If anything is being “forced” on society – and has been for at least the last 20 years – it is immorality. (What must be in public school curricula, what explicit sex scenes and vulgarity exists unavoidably in the popular media, etc.)

So both an immorality and an amorality are being artificially imposed on a nation whose founding ideals implicitly embraced the morality of the common good, and whose institutions have always, except quite recently, embraced the development of character, and sought people of character to represent them (schools, governmental bodies, & more).

Rather than “forcing” morality on others, the Catholic Church is among a handful of bodies that remains a refuge for those seeking a morally coherent & consistent code. Like other religions, it has a legitimately moral role to play in preserving a healthy direction for society. It encourages the adoption of perimeters, without which a society can dissolve from within. (Even a non-religious moral system supports the function of order.)

Finally, the third false premise – if not by the OP, certainly adopted by contemporary society – is that morality refers specifically or mainly to sexual mores. Morality encompasses an awful lot, from the viewpoint of believers and nonbelievers alike. Civil disobedience, for example, is an outgrowth of many moral causes. Liberation movements internationally, and governmental policies about migration – these are described in moral terms by churches, by individuals, and by governments.
 
Yes. And using free will can sometimes get people into Hell. 😉

So does it mean I can support/not oppose civil unions and still be in good standing with the Church?
There’s such a think as invincible ignorance!
 
Orangeowl-Ok, fine. Wrong phrase. I was never at any point saying that the Church should recognize gay marriage. I am asking, in a secular country, if I can support giving gay people the same legal rights that married people have.Me- Here is the problem. If we use the terminology “Marriage” It denotes a religious reference. If this became law. Our priest would either have to comply with these types of ceremonies, or risk prosecution or lawsuits. I believe you can as a citizen support Civil Unions. This is purely a contract between such people and the state. It gives them pretty much the same rights as marriage, without the religious conotations. It protects our Priest. Marriage, always has been and always will be between a man and a woman, for the express purpose of procreating and raising children. Hope this clears this up. 👍 Peace 🙂
 
Interesting. This is another reason, I think this should be done on a state by state basis. I dont think Utah would accept this type of legislation in their state, and nor should they have to. I think it would break down to demographics Kind of like gun control laws, and receprocity. It may be worth a look. But we do have to safeguard our religious liberies where this would be permitted. Thanks for the info. 👍
 
Honestly my Friend, I wish I could delve deeper into this issue. I have to be careful, because I am a soldier,a nd my free speech rights are somewhat curtailed. We dont practice the constitution we defend it. There are alot of issues I would love to delve into with this, but I cannot. 😉
 
Orangeowl-Ok, fine. Wrong phrase. I was never at any point saying that the Church should recognize gay marriage. I am asking, in a secular country, if I can support giving gay people the same legal rights that married people have.Me- Here is the problem. If we use the terminology “Marriage” It denotes a religious reference. If this became law. Our priest would either have to comply with these types of ceremonies, or risk prosecution or lawsuits. I believe you can as a citizen support Civil Unions. This is purely a contract between such people and the state. It gives them pretty much the same rights as marriage, without the religious conotations. It protects our Priest. Marriage, always has been and always will be between a man and a woman, for the express purpose of procreating and raising children. Hope this clears this up. 👍 Peace 🙂
Not true …even where “gay marriage” is called gay marriage Catholic priests do not have to marry or recognize gay marriage. Churches do not have to marry anyone they don’t want to … they can deny the marriage of two Baptists they can deny the marriage of two Catholics if they so choose.
Churches are not bound by the state to marry anyone.
In some states their are clauses put into the law like in NH -
but even where there aren’t this has not been an issue. A church is not required by the law to marry anyone they are protected from this.
Always have been always will be.

Trust me as a non catholic I can’t walk in a church now and demand they wed me to a buddhist … and that wont change because of gay marriage.
 
Interesting. This is another reason, I think this should be done on a state by state basis. I dont think Utah would accept this type of legislation in their state, and nor should they have to. I think it would break down to demographics Kind of like gun control laws, and receprocity. It may be worth a look. But we do have to safeguard our religious liberies where this would be permitted. Thanks for the info. 👍
It can be done at a state level but DOMA still needs to be over turned because according to DOMA gay marriage rights don’t exist …
And if marriage is not recognized federally gay couples are not getting federal marriage rights…
Like taxes or the right for their spouse to stay in the country ect …
Just giving state rights doesn’t really give them equal rights.
 
So to expand on that a gay couple that has children would have to file state taxes as married and then file federal taxes single and they would not get the same tax credit for their children-
Think of the difference in tax burden two professional married men would have having to file their federal taxes as single. … compared to a straight married couple …
especially if only one can claim their child
 
It can be done at a state level but DOMA still needs to be over turned because according to DOMA gay marriage rights don’t exist …
And if marriage is not recognized federally gay couples are not getting federal marriage rights…
Like taxes or the right for their spouse to stay in the country ect …
Just giving state rights doesn’t really give them equal rights.
Interesting. Do you think there can be something done on the federal level that could protect all our rights, Homosexuals included? Im open to all posibilities. I am a libertarian, and do believe in equal protection under the law. I am just interested in protecting those of a more religious persuasion as well. 🙂
 
I might also add that as a Libertarian, I am always interested in limiting the power of the federal government, and putting more power in the hands of the state and local municipalities. 😉 And the people who reside there…
 
I agree to some extent… but at the same time I think it’s dangerous to allow people to vote on each other’s civil rights…
Honestly, I can see this back firing - if its ok to vote on the marriage rights of another person is it ok to vote on who can vote- I mean people have been denied voting rights in the same fashion -

Federal laws should in my opinion protect the civil rights of everyone … state laws should pertain to things like state taxes … schools - issues of the public - not basic civil rights.
As long as civil marriage grants civil rights it is not something that should be up for discrimination -
(just my two cents though!)
 
Some politicians say some incredibly idiotic things, such as Obama’s “socialism,” or some other incredibly insane thing just to get in the news. I just wish they would stop bring Christianity into the mix.
Equalt rights for all has never existed in human history and is never likely to. As it stand gays have equal rights to myself, however what you are talking of is special privileges ultimately rather than equal rights.
Marriage isn’t “special privileges.” The only reason people oppose gay marriage is solely on religious grounds. The government has no right to dedicate who can’t get married because of separation of church and state. That’s why in my opinion no true American can say no to gay marriage.
 
OrangeOwl

Well, should we make fornication illegal? It’s certainly not the current rule of law. I suspect if we made that illegal, a few more people would be unhappy.

Fornication is not a crime against nature. It is a crime against God and our own integrity as human beings.
 
Jared

**Marriage isn’t “special privileges.” The only reason people oppose gay marriage is solely on religious grounds. The government has no right to dedicate who can’t get married because of separation of church and state. That’s why in my opinion no true American can say no to gay marriage. **

Is it also your opinion that no true American can say no to incestuous marriages between parents and their children, brothers and their sisters?:eek:
 
It’s true about 99% of the time.
The govt. in America has consistently made decisions on who may or not get married in America since it’s institution like any other govt.
So what is the best secular argument the government can make to say gay people shouldn’t get married?
Much as I think America is on the whole one of the better countries to have existed I do not view it as ‘the best of all possible worlds’ to borrow a line from Voltaire, ironically given his views on Catholicism.
America is the greatest country ever in terms of individual freedom mate.😉
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top