Forensic Justification - what's your view about it?

[SteveVH]

Are you implying Protestants who have been baptized but do not partake in the Eucharist have no life in them? How can on one hand believe that Protestants are born from above (baptismal regenation) and on the other hand say we have no life in us? Are you saying when Protestants partake in communion, that we receive no grace?

Let me put it this way. We have a merciful God who judges hearts. We have a God who desires that all be saved. It was not I who said “unless you eat my body and drink my blood you will have no life in you”, it was Christ. I think a lot of this probably falls under “invincible ignorance” in which you are judged according to your understanding. As for Protestants receiving grace from receiving communion I believe you receive according to your internal disposition. You might have a spiritual communion, of sorts, but you do not have the body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus Christ which is found only in the Eucharist. This is what Christ intended.

Are you saying since we do not have the sacrament of confession through Catholic Priests that we are not fogiven when we confess our sins directly to God when will approach the throne of grace through Christ alone?

Well, you can be, if you can bring yourself to perfect contrition when confessing to God. But that doesn’t happen to most of us on a regular basis. The problem is when one doesn’t particulary consider themselves in a state of sin even when they are. The sacrament of Reconciliation is the mercy of God at work and a most wonderful thing. I think it is a shame that it was thrown out the window by most Protestants.

 

[onemangang]

I guess I was asking for that. I did open the door for more Catholic apologetics common responses. Catholic Answers is a laymen’s apologetics training ground, but canned answers are just that… From my view, you are either united to Christ or united to Adam. Union is union… without a middle ground since nobody arrives at complete transformation on this side of glory. We all know in part including the Catholic Church who refers to mysteries all the time.

You asked a question, I provided an answer!

My canned answer I guess was to simple for you to address!

Seems simple, can you provide a logically consistent epistemology!

Who is Jesus and what did He do, can you answer that with any authority other than your own?

 

[Reuben_J]

DeMaria,

I am listening to the Audio Catechism and it disagrees with you. All Baptized in the trinitarian formula are true Christians. Now those without a Hierarchal organization are not true Churches but rather are ecclesial communities and these communities often provide elements of truth that are found within the Sacrament of the Church.

I think De Maria is trying to speak in the Protestant language / context. It is not meant to be literal. It is clear when he parentheses the words “true” Christian.

 

[guanophore]

Because the Catholic Church already recognizes a Protestant Triune baptism, a Protestant is already converted and united to Christ by faith regardless if he lives out his life as a Catholic or a Protestant.  Our union with Christ by faith is everything.

Yes, so the question becomes, what does it mean to live in union with Christ? Catholics receive what the Apostles beleived and taught about this, Protestants believe what the REformers believed and taught, and those who are their successors. As I am sure you can tell, there are some vast differences.

 You are either united to Adam or united to Jesus Christ; there is no middle ground.  Being Catholic does not make you more united to Jesus Christ.  If you don’t agree, how does becoming Catholic from being Protestant change your vital union with Jesus Christ? Conversion has to do from being born from above, or moving from the kingdom of darkness (in Adam) to the kingdom of light (in Christ) by the Spirit of God.

This is a very good question, and we would be in agreement about that initial conversion. However, the apostles taught that the initial conversion was only the beginning, and that the walk by faith is a lifetime of obedience and transformation. What is it that we need to obey? What kind of transformation needs to take place, and how does it happen? This is where the differences lie.

 

[guanophore]

BTW… I do believe in infant baptism, but don’t share a belief in baptismal regeneration.

I am curious how you understand the scriptures that refer to this. It is a topic I would enjoy exploring. I know that Reformed Christians understand them differently.

 

[guanophore]

I anticipated that you would come back with the Eucharist and Catholic sacraments. Since the Catholic Church receives Protestant Triune baptism, and the Catholic Church believes in baptism regeneration, then I would say that Catholic theology would conclude that we Protestants are born from above per baptism, and are united to Christ… without receiving the Eucharist or exclusive Catholic sacraments. Do you agree?

Yes.

What is an “exclusive Catholic sacrament”?

We cannot be your separated brethren without already being in the body of Christ (united to Christ by faith). The Catholic Church does not limit the channel of grace to Catholic sacraments. We Protestants have our own means of grace too which flows from the person and work of Christ on our behalf.

Yes. And the Catholic Church teaches that these avenues exist because of the sacramental life of the Church.

If someone were to tell you that there was a grace spout, and that you could count on grace pouring through it whenever you stood under it, what would keep you from standing under the spout?

If others had a ritual about entering and standing beneath the spout, would the ritual itself be abhorrent somehow?

 

[guanophore]

 Are you implying Protestants who have been baptized but do not partake in the Eucharist have no life in them?

Actually, it was not an implication, Jesus was pretty blunt about it.

 How can on one hand believe that Protestants are born from above (baptismal regenation) and on the other hand say we have no life in us? :shrug:

Like many of the mysteries, we cannot know. Jesus said we must be born again, and taught that this happened in baptism.

Jesus said we were to eat His body and drink His blood, or we would not have life within us.

How can these things both be true?

Would a person who really wants to be “united with Christ” fail to obey, just because it did not make sense?

Are you saying when Protestants partake in communion, that we receive no grace?

God hears our prayers.

Jesus set things up a certain way, because that is how He wanted them. If He chooses to unite us to HImself in His Body and Blood, the it is for us to obey Him.

Are you saying since we do not have the sacrament of confession through Catholic Priests that we are not fogiven when we confess our sins directly to God when will approach the throne of grace through Christ alone?

It is possible to make a perfect confession, but since we do not often know of our unconscious attachments to sin, there is really no way of knowing until the day of judgement.

Confession is the means by which we can certainly know. Jesus set things up this way because He alone knows our nature, and that we need to heal from guilt and shame. We don’t heal from those by hiding our sins in our selves.

I am sure you can see the OT pattern of confession to the priest. Human beings need healing for sins.

 

[Christian_Unity]

Goodness no. And there are those who roundly condemn us. They reject infant baptism, and baptismal regeneration, confession/HolyAbsolution, and the real presence, to name but a few things.

This is correct. There are numerous things Luther said that Lutherans reject. His writings that appear in the Confessions - Small and Large Catechisms, Smalkald Articles - are clearly received by us.

Christian Unity and I have already explored some of our differences.

Jon

Cool, even though I am not Lutheran, I could easily be Lutheran. Luther is okay by me.

 

[Christian_Unity]

Yes.

What is an “exclusive Catholic sacrament”?

Yes. And the Catholic Church teaches that these avenues exist because of the sacramental life of the Church.

If someone were to tell you that there was a grace spout, and that you could count on grace pouring through it whenever you stood under it, what would keep you from standing under the spout?

If others had a ritual about entering and standing beneath the spout, would the ritual itself be abhorrent somehow?

Protestants have two sacraments, and you have 7 sacraments. Therefore, the 5 additional sacraments are exclusive Catholic sacraments or maybe the Orthodox Church has seven sacraments too.

Sure, where does the grace of God flow from? If I believed the Catholic Chuch provided more sources of grace than Protestant churches, I would be Catholic.

 

[Reuben_J]

Sure, where does the grace of God flow from? If I believed the Catholic Chuch provided more sources of grace than Protestant churches, I would be Catholic.

Sorry for the little interjection. Grace comes from God and through the Church of God of which the Sacraments are the outward signs of the inner grace. In this sense as been pointed out, Protestant churches have missed out on these graces. Yes, we cannot limit the grace of God and therefore we cannot say that God’s grace does not reach the Protestants, but they have missed much of the graces that are already in place through the Sacraments.

 

[Christian_Unity]

Sorry for the little interjection. Grace comes from God and through the Church of God of which the Sacraments are the outward signs of the inner grace. In this sense as been pointed out, Protestant churches have missed out on these graces. Yes, we cannot limit the grace of God and therefore we cannot say that God’s grace does not reach the Protestants, but they have missed much of the graces that are already in place through the Sacraments.

Your interjection is more than welcome Ruben! Scripture does teach us that we can come boldly to the throne of grace through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ who is Lord over Catholics and Protestants alike. This sounds like a sibling fight between brothers and sisters that are typical in any human family. I can say that Protestants have superior sources of grace flowing to us than you, but I won’t. Rather I wil boast in our weakness.

Botton line, Jesus Christ is full of grace and truth… which sufficent grace is given to all true children of God. Maybe Catholic grace flows from God through the Catholic Church and then to Catholics? Maybe Protestant grace flows directly from God to individual Protestants directly since you guys seem to imply that Protestants are weaker Christians. Thank God in our weakness, we are strong in Him… because He promises that His grace is sufficent for us weaker Christians. I am content in weakness.

And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that having all sufficiency in all things at all times, you may abound in every good work. - Apostle Paul

But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me. For the sake of Christ, then, I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities. For when I am weak, then I am strong. - Apostle Paul

 

[guanophore]

Protestants have two sacraments, and you have 7 sacraments. Therefore, the 5 additional sacraments are exclusive Catholic sacraments or maybe the Orthodox Church has seven sacraments too.

Oh, thanks for explaining that. Yes, the Orthodox have also preserved the Apostolic faith that has been handed down through the paradosis, so they also retain the 7 sacraments.

They are not exclusive in the sense that they are not available to all, though.

Sure, where does the grace of God flow from? If I believed the Catholic Chuch provided more sources of grace than Protestant churches, I would be Catholic.

This is very good to know. It means that you are open to whatever God reveals to you, even if it may not seem to appeal to you on the surface. It shows a deep commitment to the Way.

Jesus instituted the sacraments as channels through which His grace flows. If He did not intend to work through them, I don’t think He would have established them. They are part of the once for all divine deposit of faith entrusted to the Church.

Catholics believe that we do not have the right to excise or set aside any parts of that One Faith, even if certain parts of it don’t seem “necessary” or “essential” to us. We may not know the value of certain elements from our point of view, but God does.

Scripture does teach us that we can come boldly to the throne of grace through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ who is Lord over Catholics and Protestants alike.

Indeed He does, and in some ways He has specified precisely HOW He wants us to come. This “how” is contained in the Sacred Tradition that has been preserved from the Apostles.

2 Thess 2:14-15
15 So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by our letter.

The Churches founded by the Apostles have obeyed this Apostolic instruction, and faithfully preserved the traditions, whether by word of mouth, or by letter. These two strands form one cord of inerrant and inspired revelation. They were never intended to be separated from one another, and when they were (during the Reformation) both aspects began to degrade in the ecclesial communities that were formed.

Botton line, Jesus Christ is full of grace and truth… which sufficent grace is given to all true children of God. Maybe Catholic grace flows from God through the Catholic Church and then to Catholics?

If they are ready to receive it, yes, but more than that, all the graces that flow through Protestant ecclesial commuities also originate in the One Church founded by Christ. To the extent that our separated brethren have retained the contents of the once for all divine deposit of faith, the HS works through these communities to draw others to Himself.

There is no doubt that grace flows from God to all of His people, whether they are identifiable as members of His One Body, or not. I don’t think it is accurate to say that “Protestants are weaker Christians” (though I am sure there is at least one person on this thread that would affirm that)

It would be more accurate to say that Protestants are making the journey with less resources. There is a smaller portion of the divine deposit of faith, and in some communities, more gets jettisoned by the day!

That being said, I personally think that many Protestants do more with less, to the shame of Catholics. When I was sojourning among my separated brethren, I found many devoted and committed Christians - more than I had met over the course of a lifetime in the Catholic Church. And when I have seen those fervent brothers and sisters come into the fullness of the faith, they are absolute powerhouses (Scott Hahn is a good example).

Thank God in our weakness, we are strong in Him… because He promises that His grace is sufficent for us weaker Christians. I am content in weakness.

This is a decision that each person has to make for themselves. You have said that, if you believed that the CC could provide you with more grace, you would become Catholic, and that is the most important point. In the meantime, of course, we will pray for you and try to pursuade you.

And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that having all sufficiency in all things at all times, you may abound in every good work. - Apostle Paul

But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me. For the sake of Christ, then, I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities. For when I am weak, then I am strong. - Apostle Paul

 

[Christian_Unity]

I have to say, this is a very nice and enjoyable thread. I’m have a great time on Catholic Answers. I wanted to say that Catholics and Protestants can get along and co-exist to the glory of our God.

Scott Hahn is not a good example because he was Catholic before he became Protestant, and returned to his roots.

 

[guanophore]

I have to say, this is a very nice and enjoyable thread. I’m have a great time on Catholic Answers. I wanted to say that Catholics and Protestants can get along and co-exist to the glory of our God.

Scott Hahn is not a good example because he was Catholic before he became Protestant, and returned to his roots.

But I think he was the same kind of Catholic I was, one who did not know their faith. I left that which I had never really understood or embraced. Like him, I studied my way back. I spent 3 years in an evangelical seminary, and when I started reading the early church fathers, I had to pull myself up short. Instead of seeking ordination, as I had planned, in the Methodist church, I had to return and reconcile my misunderstandings with Catholicism. I am one of those people about whom it is said “to be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant”.

I am glad you are enjoying our discussion. I am as well. Still looking forward to more on the regenerative nature of baptism.

 

[KathleenGee]

Problem is universal Christianity has focused on the Eucharist for 2,000 years, and the Protestants did as well until Luther.

Baptism seals us in Christ. We belong to Christ. We image Christ. But He said that we are to eat of Him to have eternal life. And we also believe in the sacrament of confirmation that strengthens us and matures our faith. And we have the sacrament of confession/reconciliation/penance to remove grave sin from us and restore us to communion with Christ in the Church. With that are those consecrated in truth and spirit to become priests, and to serve at the altar.

And our greatest work…as shown in Scripture, is to worship God, to love Him above all things.

You then get to the issue of how you worship. Protestant Bible services and the Mass are two extremely different forms of worship. Our greatest work is to be united with the wounded but triumphant Lord at the altar of the heavenly Father, and the Eucharist is our communion with Him in heaven.

It is the Eucharist Who feeds us to grow into more and more the image of Christ Himself…and we receive His body, blood, soul, and divinity.

 

[CopticChristian]

Protestants have two sacraments, and you have 7 sacraments. Therefore, the 5 additional sacraments are exclusive Catholic sacraments or maybe the Orthodox Church has seven sacraments too.

Sure, where does the grace of God flow from? If I believed the Catholic Chuch provided more sources of grace than Protestant churches, I would be Catholic.

CU,

You view this wrongly. It is not 5 additional Sacraments…it is 5 fewer Sacraments and by whose authority and why?

 

[CopticChristian]

I have to say, this is a very nice and enjoyable thread. I’m have a great time on Catholic Answers. I wanted to say that Catholics and Protestants can get along and co-exist to the glory of our God.

Scott Hahn is not a good example because he was Catholic before he became Protestant, and returned to his roots.

CU,

Would Augustine, fathering a child, Manichiest, and liar qualify?

 

[onemangang]

Your interjection is more than welcome Ruben! Scripture does teach us that we can come boldly to the throne of grace through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ who is Lord over Catholics and Protestants alike. This sounds like a sibling fight between brothers and sisters that are typical in any human family. I can say that Protestants have superior sources of grace flowing to us than you, but I won’t. Rather I wil boast in our weakness.

Funny thing, for the Catholic individual, one can not boast of their grace or faith, being that they are given by God! I do not have to learn the Greek, or Hebrew, Jewish Customs, hermeneutical or grammatical structures, or know more bible verses than the next guy, all I have to do is trust Christ, who has revealed Himself to us through the Church!

In other words, God did not leave us alone to discern, who He is by our own intellect, If that were true, then He would be reserved for the Intelligentsia, and not the common man! Instead Christ has given us, the manifold wisdom of God, the Church so that our faith might not stand on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God.

Botton line, Jesus Christ is full of grace and truth… which sufficent grace is given to all true children of God. Maybe Catholic grace flows from God through the Catholic Church and then to Catholics? Maybe Protestant grace flows directly from God to individual Protestants directly since you guys seem to imply that Protestants are weaker Christians. Thank God in our weakness, we are strong in Him… because He promises that His grace is sufficent for us weaker Christians. I am content in weakness.

The grace that Protestants receive from God through faith in Christ, is due to the work of Christ Church, in which He founded! If it was not for the Church, man would be grasping at straws trying to know the unknowable God. Good thing Christ established a Church to proclaim His Glory and deliver the proclamation of Good News throughout the world.

Has God infallibly revealed Himself to man, in the Person of Jesus Christ? If So what was the mode that He chose to reveal Himself? Was it a visible social order, or a text? I can say that Christ intentionally and infallibly chose a visible social order (the Church) to be an active participant in the mediation of His Authority, and to dispense His grace, this very Social order wrote, compiled, and discerned Holy Writ, to be profitable for teaching, correction and reproof, has been a conduit of Grace from the beginning, and Christ makes Himself present through Her daily. She is truly partaking in His Divine nature!

And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that having all sufficiency in all things at all times, you may abound in every good work. - Apostle Paul

In Christ who is the Manifold Wisdom of God, that has been revealed to you, through the Church!

But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me. For the sake of Christ, then, I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities. For when I am weak, then I am strong. - Apostle Paul

Hard thing for most Protestant to do when speaking on questions like Who is Jesus, and What did He Do, they must rely on their own ability to discern scripture better than the next man. Many Protestants must formulate the beliefs they have, on their own ability to discern and reason, which is rendering authority to ones self. As a Catholic I can only say, thank you Lord Jesus, for handing down a Deposit of Faith through your Church, so that I may know you, and love you!

I guess since you left off with a Quote from a famous Catholic, I will too

St. Augustine
“Your design clearly is to deprive Scripture of all authority and to make every man’s mind the authority of what he is to approve or disapprove of. This is not to be subject to Scripture, but to make Scripture subject to you. If you discard authority, to what, I beseech you, will you take yourself?” (Reply to Faustus the Manichaean, 32:19 [A.D. 400])

 

[Christian_Unity]

CU,

You view this wrongly. It is not 5 additional Sacraments…it is 5 fewer Sacraments and by whose authority and why?

Please educate me on the 5 additonal Catholic sacraments. Since I’m from Protestantism, it will help me understand the 5 additional Catholic sacraments through a Scripture alone presentation. Quoting official Catholic sources does not mean much from my circle of Christianity as compared to Scripture references .

 

[Christian_Unity]

Funny thing, for the Catholic individual, one can not boast of their grace or faith, being that they are given by God! I do not have to learn the Greek, or Hebrew, Jewish Customs, hermeneutical or grammatical structures, or know more bible verses than the next guy, all I have to do is trust Christ, who has revealed Himself to us through the Church!

In other words, God did not leave us alone to discern, who He is by our own intellect, If that were true, then He would be reserved for the Intelligentsia, and not the common man! Instead Christ has given us, the manifold wisdom of God, the Church so that our faith might not stand on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God.

The grace that Protestants receive from God through faith in Christ, is due to the work of Christ Church, in which He founded! If it was not for the Church, man would be grasping at straws trying to know the unknowable God. Good thing Christ established a Church to proclaim His Glory and deliver the proclamation of Good News throughout the world.

Has God infallibly revealed Himself to man, in the Person of Jesus Christ? If So what was the mode that He chose to reveal Himself? Was it a visible social order, or a text? I can say that Christ intentionally and infallibly chose a visible social order (the Church) to be an active participant in the mediation of His Authority, and to dispense His grace, this very Social order wrote, compiled, and discerned Holy Writ, to be profitable for teaching, correction and reproof, has been a conduit of Grace from the beginning, and Christ makes Himself present through Her daily. She is truly partaking in His Divine nature!

In Christ who is the Manifold Wisdom of God, that has been revealed to you, through the Church!

Hard thing for most Protestant to do when speaking on questions like Who is Jesus, and What did He Do, they must rely on their own ability to discern scripture better than the next man. Many Protestants must formulate the beliefs they have, on their own ability to discern and reason, which is rendering authority to ones self. As a Catholic I can only say, thank you Lord Jesus, for handing down a Deposit of Faith through your Church, so that I may know you, and love you!

I guess since you left off with a Quote from a famous Catholic, I will too

St. Augustine
“Your design clearly is to deprive Scripture of all authority and to make every man’s mind the authority of what he is to approve or disapprove of. This is not to be subject to Scripture, but to make Scripture subject to you. If you discard authority, to what, I beseech you, will you take yourself?” (Reply to Faustus the Manichaean, 32:19 [A.D. 400])

Augustine would have been a Calviinist if he was born after the Reformaton.

monergism.com/directory/search.php?action=search_links_simple&search_kind=and&phrase=augustine&B1.x=0&B1.y=0