Foreplay when pregnant a sin if it doesn't go any further?

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jwashu said:
No you can’t…

However even those you list have changed drastically throughout the years except for murder which in a sense makes them little d dogmas.

Abortion is murder since we have learned through science and faith that life begins at conception.

Gay marriage is difficult because the Church teaches that the State can “marry” anyway. So why not reduce to the state to civil unions for everyone. If the state wants to allow to people to share property it’s none of our business. However if they want to get married it becomes an issue for their religion to deal with. Problem solved and we know there will be none in the Catholic Church.

Contraception has been consistent however it’s difficult to support for a theological standpoint IMHO and my guess is that it will change as have other moral sexual teachings as new information was learned. Study Augustine and Aquinas, the Church use to teach their teachings on sexuality which we now know are completely off base and incorrect. IMHO Augustine’s were based more off his own guilt than anything else.

The problem with this though is that the definitions aren’t clear and this whole thread has, for the most part, been about arguing over semantics. That is why it’s so difficult to determine if it’s a mortal sin or not, there are extraneous variables. It’s not murder, it’s not abortion…

I’m not saying who is right or who is wrong or even what I exactly believe… rather I’m trying to point out it’s not as black and white as some of you try to make it seem.
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I’m with you. Here is yet another thread that dissects love between a husband and wife. Every time I read one of them, I can’t help but think how wrong this is.

I noticed that paragraph 2351 keeps getting quoted. It does say morally disordered, but nowhere does it say gravely disordered…a very important distinction, don’t you think?
 
baylee said:
I’m with you. Here is yet another thread that dissects love between a husband and wife. Every time I read one of them, I can’t help but think how wrong this is.

I noticed that paragraph 2351 keeps getting quoted. It does say morally disordered, but nowhere does it say gravely disordered…a very important distinction, don’t you think?
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I think we’re reading into the wording too much. Shouldn’t we be trying to avoid things that are disordered in the first place, whether it’s morally disordered or gravely disordered?
 
baylee said:
I’m with you. Here is yet another thread that dissects love between a husband and wife. Every time I read one of them, I can’t help but think how wrong this is.

I noticed that paragraph 2351 keeps getting quoted. It does say morally disordered, but nowhere does it say gravely disordered…a very important distinction, don’t you think?
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Thank you! …and this is why I do not believe that it’s mortal sin. It may be a sin, a venial sin, but I do not believe mortal sin is involved here.

I also very much resent a previous poster who compared a marital embrace not open to life as being tarramount to murder and abortion. That is just a cruel comparison. It was uncalled for also.
 
ComputerGeek25 said:
I think we’re reading into the wording too much. Shouldn’t we be trying to avoid things that are disordered in the first place, whether it’s morally disordered or gravely disordered?
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I have no problem with that, but in reality every single thread about sex between husband and wife mentions mortal sin…and I think it’s incredibly irresponsible.
 
You can’t live according to the letter of the law. If it is sexual pleasure between husband and wife and it is not outside marriage then it should be pleasing to God. If you refuse to have sex because you cannot get pregnant again as you are already pregnant, what happens if your husband or even your wife is tempted to have an affair. You also have conjugal rights in marriage and have to look after each others’ needs to ensure the other person doesn’t go astray. Don’t write to me.
 
baylee said:
I have no problem with that, but in reality every single thread about sex between husband and wife mentions mortal sin…and I think it’s incredibly irresponsible.
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And one more thing about paragraph 2351…it does say sexual pleasure sought for itself…who is to say that a husband and wife are doing any of these things simply for the sexual pleasure alone? I would say that most couples are doing them for a lot more than that.
 
baylee said:
I have no problem with that, but in reality every single thread about sex between husband and wife mentions mortal sin…and I think it’s incredibly irresponsible.
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I’ve been saying it’s grave matter, or at least trying to, which is only one component of mortal sin. Only the parties involved, the confessor and God probably know.
 
baylee said:
And one more thing about paragraph 2351…it does say sexual pleasure sought for itself…who is to say that a husband and wife are doing any of these things simply for the sexual pleasure alone? I would say that most couples are doing them for a lot more than that.
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Again, doesn’t make it right. If something is “disordered” we probably shouldn’t do it.

The issue here is “how close can we get to the line without crossing it.” In all honesty, we probably shouldn’t even be close to the line to begin with. I think we’re trying to find loopholes in language of various Internet articles, CCC quotes, etc. It’s akin to “no animals were harmed in the filming of this TV show.”

The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.
 
Serap said:
Where does it say it’s a Grave Matter?
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I think you have plenty of material on this thread to work from. You have several quotes from the CCC and other places that outright say it’s disordered, to defining the purpose of said acts.
 
Serap said:
My question is, if you’re already pregnant, is it still a sin if you have foreplay without completely making love? You already have life inside of you, so you’re not opting out of creating life.

Just a thought that I would like answered b/c my husband and I engaged in foreplay and it stopped there. I knew by how tired we were that it would likely just be foreplay also.

Did we still sin?
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Hi there!! That’s a good question…I am interested to know as well…

I have another question on top of that question…What if you were told by the doctor’s you couldn’t have sexual relations-intercourse or your baby would suffer and you would suffer, even have a miscarriage, kind of like what happened with my sister-in-law. She was placed on bedrest and told no more sex…well what happens when the hubby wants sex and would at least be satisfied with foreplay? Is that a sin if it’s not completed?!
 
ComputerGeek25 said:
Again, doesn’t make it right. If something is “disordered” we probably shouldn’t do it.

The issue here is “how close can we get to the line without crossing it.” In all honesty, we probably shouldn’t even be close to the line to begin with. I think we’re trying to find loopholes in language of various Internet articles, CCC quotes, etc. It’s akin to “no animals were harmed in the filming of this TV show.”
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Yes, but the difference between disordered and gravely disordered is the difference between being able to receive communion and not being able to…venial and mortal sin…the need to confess it and not confess it, etc.

I also think there are those on here who interpret CCC quotes the way they want to in the other direction (ie. grave matter, mortal sin, etc.)
 
baylee said:
Yes, but the difference between disordered and gravely disordered is the difference between being able to receive communion and not being able to…venial and mortal sin…the need to confess it and not confess it, etc.

I also think there are those on here who interpret CCC quotes the way they want to in the other direction (ie. grave matter, mortal sin, etc.)
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Some of us take a more conservative approach. I mean it is our immortal soul we are talking about. 😉
 
iluvmybabies said:
Hi there!! That’s a good question…I am interested to know as well…

I have another question on top of that question…What if you were told by the doctor’s you couldn’t have sexual relations-intercourse or your baby would suffer and you would suffer, even have a miscarriage, kind of like what happened with my sister-in-law. She was placed on bedrest and told no more sex…well what happens when the hubby wants sex and would at least be satisfied with foreplay? Is that a sin if it’s not completed?!
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Again, that’s the couples’ cross to bear. We all have our problems.

No one said it would be easy, just that it would be worth it.
 
ComputerGeek25 said:
Again, doesn’t make it right. If something is “disordered” we probably shouldn’t do it.

The issue here is “how close can we get to the line without crossing it.” In all honesty, we probably shouldn’t even be close to the line to begin with. I think we’re trying to find loopholes in language of various Internet articles, CCC quotes, etc. It’s akin to “no animals were harmed in the filming of this TV show.”

The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.
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I don’t believe that many people on CAF are on the road to perdition. This fear mongering of going to Hell is just not healthy and it causes unnecessary fear. I hope you don’t live your life in fear of going to Hell. Obedience out of fear is not healthy. Obedience out of love is healthy.

ComputerGeek, you seem to be a devout Catholic and strong in your faith and that’s great. There should be more people like you in this world; please don’t get me wrong.

When you go to heaven, I’m sure you’ll see a lot more cafeteria Catholics and non-Catholics than you would have expected. God is all merciful and loving and if we love Him, despite our mistakes, He will welcome us into heaven. We may need to do time in Purgatory and it may be painful, but God will not force us to endure anything that we cannot endure.

Loving God is not just about loving Him either. It’s about loving one another and not passing judgement or placing a feeling of righteousness on ourselves. It’s about praying for eachother and forgiving people that have harmed us. It’s about humility and peace.

So if a married man and woman act in a way that is not open to life and do it out of love and a desire to please one another, without the intention of just pleasing themselves, then they are still acting in a manner that may be displeasing to God -yes - but this is not mortal sin. This couple is not doomed for Hell.
 
ComputerGeek25 said:
Some of us take a more conservative approach. I mean it is our immortal soul we are talking about. 😉
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And that’s fine, but people speak here as if they know that their more conservative approach is the right one. It’s still incredibly irresponsible (at the very least) for someone to give others the impression that they are committing a mortal sin when the CCC does not support that.
 
iluvmybabies said:
Hi there!! That’s a good question…I am interested to know as well…

I have another question on top of that question…What if you were told by the doctor’s you couldn’t have sexual relations-intercourse or your baby would suffer and you would suffer, even have a miscarriage, kind of like what happened with my sister-in-law. She was placed on bedrest and told no more sex…well what happens when the hubby wants sex and would at least be satisfied with foreplay? Is that a sin if it’s not completed?!
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Excellent question. A user named TLM08 also asked this question in the context of what if the wife was bed ridden ill. To turn it around, if my husband was unable to make love, then I would see it as a call for myself to chastity, but I’m a practicing Catholic.

However, in your case, the woman is healthy, but she cannot complete the act in a way that’s open to life. I think I would ask a priest this question. I am not sure what the answer would be. If the husband is not religious and doesn’t understand that he’s being called to chastity, then what does the wife do for his soul?

I would rather please my husband than know that I am pushing him to sin by masturbation and lusting after other women. This is a really tough call!

Nothing is ever black and white. That’s for sure!
 
baylee said:
And that’s fine, but people speak here as if they know that their more conservative approach is the right one. It’s still incredibly irresponsible (at the very least) for someone to give others the impression that they are committing a mortal sin when the CCC does not support that.
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I agree that some of their language should be changed. At minimum, mortal sin should be replaced with grave matter.

There is a scriptural basis for taking a conservative approach and encouraging others to do the same. Jesus spoke to the fact that it isn’t enough to just follow the law - he said don’t even think about breaking the law (Matthew 5:28), or encourage others to break the law (Matthew 18:6).
 
baylee said:
I have found that my life as a single woman was much more black and white. However, my life as a married woman is very different.
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Tell me about it! Throw children into the mix and it becomes very complicated!
 
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