Foreplay when pregnant a sin if it doesn't go any further?

[kage_ar]

I agree that some of their language should be changed. At minimum, mortal sin should be replaced with grave matter.

.

As a reminder. For sin to be mortal it must meet three criterea:

Be Grave Matter (aka Serious Matter)

Be done with intent (you can’t commit a mortal sin accidentally or be forced with a gun to your head)

Be done with knowledge (ignorance IS bliss)

Sevral posters here have been able to show that lust and masturbation are serious.

If anyone, married or single, pregnant or barren, sick or well, make or female, black or white, pretty or ugly, rich or poor, KNOWS that lust and/or masturbation is serious and does it with intent - then, they very well may be committing a mortal sin - that is a sin that sends you to hell.

I cannot in my wildest dreams imagine why someone would want to get their spouse all “hot and bothered” if they have no intent of completing that act. Seems really cold to me.

 

[ComputerGeek25]

I don’t believe that many people on CAF are on the road to perdition. This fear mongering of going to Hell is just not healthy and it causes unnecessary fear. I hope you don’t live your life in fear of going to Hell. Obedience out of fear is not healthy. Obedience out of love is healthy.

I’m not trying to fear monger

I’m just stating that good intentions don’t make our actions any less sinful. Heck, many women who have abortions claim to have good intentions, however misguided they may be.

ComputerGeek, you seem to be a devout Catholic and strong in your faith and that’s great. There should be more people like you in this world; please don’t get me wrong.

Thanks.

When you go to heaven, I’m sure you’ll see a lot more cafeteria Catholics and non-Catholics than you would have expected. God is all merciful and loving and if we love Him, despite our mistakes, He will welcome us into heaven. We may need to do time in Purgatory and it may be painful, but God will not force us to endure anything that we cannot endure.

I don’t dispute that.

Loving God is not just about loving Him either. It’s about loving one another and not passing judgement or placing a feeling of righteousness on ourselves. It’s about praying for eachother and forgiving people that have harmed us. It’s about humility and peace.

So if a married man and woman act in a way that is not open to life and do it out of love and a desire to please one another, without the intention of just pleasing themselves, then they are still acting in a manner that may be displeasing to God -yes - but this is not mortal sin. This couple is not doomed for Hell.

How can it not have potential for mortal sin? It has been stated many times the act has to be open to life. Trying to skirt around the edges is still grave matter.

 

[ComputerGeek25]

As a reminder. For sin to be mortal it must meet three criterea:

Be Grave Matter (aka Serious Matter)

Be done with intent (you can’t commit a mortal sin accidentally or be forced with a gun to your head)

Be done with knowledge (ignorance IS bliss)

Sevral posters here have been able to show that lust and masturbation are serious.

If anyone, married or single, pregnant or barren, sick or well, make or female, black or white, pretty or ugly, rich or poor, KNOWS that lust and/or masturbation is serious and does it with intent - then, they very well may be committing a mortal sin - that is a sin that sends you to hell.

I cannot in my wildest dreams imagine why someone would want to get their spouse all “hot and bothered” if they have no intent of completing that act. Seems really cold to me.

And if you get your spouse all hot and bothered without the intention of properly completing the act, doesn’t that, at a minimum, qualify as scandal?

 

[tampagrl]

… we should respect the integrity of sperm.

“respect the sperm” lol…sorry, I couldn’t help taking that out of context…hee-heee…

But ooookay, I’ve followed this thread as best I can, and I gotta say this is so bewildering

The not being open to life issue is mute in all of this b/c this woman is already pregnant.

My hubby & I also practice NFP but when we’re engaged in the marital act during my non-fertile times, we know we’re not fertile, so aren’t we doing it “just” for pleasure? From what I’m reading, a lot of you are saying the “just for pleasure” intention is sinful. Furthermore, technically speaking, couldn’t you use NFP to always avoid children? I’m not trying to derail this convo anymore than necessary, just trying to throw out yet another perspective.

Here’s another head-scratcher: The whole issue here, as I’m understanding it, is that whatever we as married couples do in regards to foreplay is OK as long as the foreplay is followed up by and/or completed by intercourse. If that’s an accurate understanding, then haven’t we made this all about the man? In other words, my husband could make me climax manually, and that would NOT be a sin as long as he then entered me to climax himself, but if he climaxed outside of my body that IS a sin? Hello, here’s a hair, anyone care to split it w/me? I’m sorry, I’m reeeally not trying to argue an “anything goes” point of view. Honestly, but this convo sounds like the Old Testament Pharisees, “you can eat this but not that” way of thinking…

I’m just having such a difficult time w/this thread b/c I think (and have always thought) that foreplay (the physical, touching, intent to arouse kind) is a way of mutually pleasuring each other and just more ways of showing our love for each other.

After reading these posts, I’m getting the impression that we’re (along w/the original poster) are in a horrible state of mortal sin…blek. I seriously don’t see this. I really, really don’t.

For my husband and I, our sex life is a balance btwn us (via NFP) having children and not having children. In the “not having children” (not everyone is The Duggar Family - God Bless 'em!) we willingly do other things in a sexual way to keep our marriage healthy, alive, and fun.

 

[iluvmybabies]

Excellent question. A user named TLM08 also asked this question in the context of what if the wife was bed ridden ill. To turn it around, if my husband was unable to make love, then I would see it as a call for myself to chastity, but I’m a practicing Catholic.

However, in your case, the woman is healthy, but she cannot complete the act in a way that’s open to life. I think I would ask a priest this question. I am not sure what the answer would be. If the husband is not religious and doesn’t understand that he’s being called to chastity, then what does the wife do for his soul?

I would rather please my husband than know that I am pushing him to sin by masturbation and lusting after other women. This is a really tough call!

Nothing is ever black and white. That’s for sure!

Well my sis-in-law isn’t Catholic but my brother is…she’s in the process of devouting herself to Cathlecism…I am proud of her! She’s a Christian but would rather be blessed through Catholic priest…They are in the process of completing their civil marriage by getting married through the church…

She was in bedrest with her second pregnancy…And my brother had to speak with a priest and counselor often because he wanted his wife…They were newly weds, 2 years, still with the whole passion and all…She would tell me how she felt horrible that he would want but she couldn’t give…She was afraid he would go and do things outside of the marriage, like how you said you know maybe not with another woman but you know?! And I felt terrible for her but on a couple of circumstances she was rushed to the hospital and almost lost their baby…Of course eventually he stopped bothering her about it and had to be stuck with a counselor even more 2x a week basis…It hurt their marriage a lot…So much he started sleeping in a different room, with their first born because he couldn’t stand knowing she was there and he couldn’t “be” with her…And she wasn’t happy either because she too wished to enjoy her hubby…So she had asked me if it was ok for the whole you know “foreplay” thing because they would at least be satisfied to express themselves and still sleep together even if it was with that…BUT I couldnt’ answer her…They dealt with it the best they could…

But that is an interesting question because she’s healthy just was in huge risk to miscarry…

And I would like to know what is really correct or right for this so if ever anyone else asks me or if I am ever in such a position, GOD forbid, I will know what to do and how to explain it…

Your help is greatly appreciated!

 

[ComputerGeek25]

Well my sis-in-law isn’t Catholic but my brother is…she’s in the process of devouting herself to Cathlecism…I am proud of her! She’s a Christian but would rather be blessed through Catholic priest…They are in the process of completing their civil marriage by getting married through the church…

She was in bedrest with her second pregnancy…And my brother had to speak with a priest and counselor often because he wanted his wife…They were newly weds, 2 years, still with the whole passion and all…She would tell me how she felt horrible that he would want but she couldn’t give…She was afraid he would go and do things outside of the marriage, like how you said you know maybe not with another woman but you know?! And I felt terrible for her but on a couple of circumstances she was rushed to the hospital and almost lost their baby…Of course eventually he stopped bothering her about it and had to be stuck with a counselor even more 2x a week basis…It hurt their marriage a lot…So much he started sleeping in a different room, with their first born because he couldn’t stand knowing she was there and he couldn’t “be” with her…And she wasn’t happy either because she too wished to enjoy her hubby…So she had asked me if it was ok for the whole you know “foreplay” thing because they would at least be satisfied to express themselves and still sleep together even if it was with that…BUT I couldnt’ answer her…They dealt with it the best they could…

But that is an interesting question because she’s healthy just was in huge risk to miscarry…

And I would like to know what is really correct or right for this so if ever anyone else asks me or if I am ever in such a position, GOD forbid, I will know what to do and how to explain it…

Your help is greatly appreciated!

I know it’s tough, and it’s probably not what you want to hear, but it is what it is. Foreplay has to end the right way.

 

[tampagrl]

…She would tell me how she felt horrible that he would want but she couldn’t give…She was afraid he would go and do things outside of the marriage, like how you said you know maybe not with another woman but you know?! …Of course eventually he stopped bothering her about it and had to be stuck with a counselor even more 2x a week basis…It hurt their marriage a lot…So much he started sleeping in a different room, with their first born because he couldn’t stand knowing she was there and he couldn’t “be” with her…And she wasn’t happy either because she too wished to enjoy her hubby…

This is so horrible and wrong and then wrong some more…see how much it hurt their marriage!?. …this is the point I just made in my reply below.
She should have felt free to please her husband and vice-versa… i’m sorry.

 

[baylee]

Here’s another head-scratcher: The whole issue here, as I’m understanding it, is that whatever we as married couples do in regards to foreplay is OK as long as the foreplay is followed up by and/or completed by intercourse. If that’s an accurate understanding, then haven’t we made this all about the man? In other words, my husband could make me climax manually, and that would NOT be a sin as long as he then entered me to climax himself, but if he climaxed outside of my body that IS a sin? Hello, here’s a hair, anyone care to split it w/me? I’m sorry, I’m reeeally not trying to argue an “anything goes” point of view. Honestly, but this convo sounds like the Old Testament Pharisees, “you can eat this but not that” way of thinking…

Well, it’s all about the man because it’s really all about having children (and he’s the one who makes that happen). You keep hearing that it’s unitive and procreative, but in reality it’s all about having children. Couples can enjoy each other as long as they focus on the children part. No sexual enjoyment is allowed any other way…no matter your fertility, your age, your pregnancy status.

One example of where this thinking really bothers me is if the husband does not climax in the woman, he’s expected to go without…and the wife is expected to let him go without.

 

[baylee]

This is so horrible and wrong and then wrong some more…see how much it hurt their marriage!?. …this is the point I just made in my reply below.
She should have felt free to please her husband and vice-versa… i’m sorry.

Oh and don’t think this is exactly what happens in many marriages. This is why what happens between a husband and a wife can not be black and white. It involves another person…not just yourself.

 

[iluvmybabies]

All of my sources are off EWTN there are a few more too, but these are my favorites as they are clearest and most readable.

Here is one such post and reply.

Here is another reply.

Thanks for the information…and it kind of does make sense because if you are able to express and show your love to your spouse through “foreplay” but not lose control and lust over each other then you are just showing each other a different more deeper love without the need to lust and have sex…Interesting…

 

[ComputerGeek25]

“respect the sperm” lol…sorry, I couldn’t help taking that out of context…hee-heee…

But ooookay, I’ve followed this thread as best I can, and I gotta say this is so bewildering

The not being open to life issue is mute in all of this b/c this woman is already pregnant.

My hubby & I also practice NFP but when we’re engaged in the marital act during my non-fertile times, we know we’re not fertile, so aren’t we doing it “just” for pleasure? From what I’m reading, a lot of you are saying the “just for pleasure” intention is sinful. Furthermore, technically speaking, couldn’t you use NFP to always avoid children? I’m not trying to derail this convo anymore than necessary, just trying to throw out yet another perspective.

Here’s another head-scratcher: The whole issue here, as I’m understanding it, is that whatever we as married couples do in regards to foreplay is OK as long as the foreplay is followed up by and/or completed by intercourse. If that’s an accurate understanding, then haven’t we made this all about the man? In other words, my husband could make me climax manually, and that would NOT be a sin as long as he then entered me to climax himself, but if he climaxed outside of my body that IS a sin? Hello, here’s a hair, anyone care to split it w/me? I’m sorry, I’m reeeally not trying to argue an “anything goes” point of view. Honestly, but this convo sounds like the Old Testament Pharisees, “you can eat this but not that” way of thinking…

I’m just having such a difficult time w/this thread b/c I think (and have always thought) that foreplay (the physical, touching, intent to arouse kind) is a way of mutually pleasuring each other and just more ways of showing our love for each other.

After reading these posts, I’m getting the impression that we’re (along w/the original poster) are in a horrible state of mortal sin…blek. I seriously don’t see this. I really, really don’t.

For my husband and I, our sex life is a balance btwn us (via NFP) having children and not having children. In the “not having children” (not everyone is The Duggar Family - God Bless 'em!) we willingly do other things in a sexual way to keep our marriage healthy, alive, and fun.

Re: your concern about “just for pleasure” and NFP - As I stated previously, you have to be open to the possibility of life. You cannot frustrate this aspect in any way. It doesn’t matter how furtile you are. Obviously, there are going to be times when it’s near impossible to get pregnant. The church does not teach “you can only do the act if both people are furtile.” Otherwise, the church wouldn’t marry couples where at least one partner is infertile.

Also, the church recognizes that there is just cause for spacing of children. It is up to the couple to determine what the just causes are.

 

[tampagrl]

…This is why what happens between a husband and a wife can not be black and white. It involves another person…not just yourself.

That sums it up beautifully as far as i’m concerned.

 

[tampagrl]

…One example of where this thinking really bothers me is if the husband does not climax in the woman, he’s expected to go without…and the wife is expected to let him go without.

the reverse would be true as well… i can’t really imagine this…lol…but i’m sure there’s proabably at least one married man out there who doesn’t want to have frequent unions with his wife.

And what about a man who may have a medical problem where he’s physically unable to perform or complete the marital union? Is the wife expected to go w/o sexual contact from her husband?!

I think a healthy Catholic marriage is WAY more than this being all about the man and this dry, “alright honey, lie down on your back, it’s time for me to make a baby-making deposit”.

 

[iluvmybabies]

I’ve been reading these posts and I’ll admit I’m somewhat confused. I understand that sex outside of marriage is a sin (no problems there) and that we as Catholics need to be open to life. The statements that confuse me are where people talk about it being a sin if the husband and wife don’t completely finish the marital act with the husband ‘finishing’ in the wife’s womb.

My question is what happens when life gets in the way? Say the husband and wife are having relations with intent to finish correctly, but then a child starts crying or a neighbor knocks on the door or a ‘new’ position ends badly and you find yourself not finishing the act correctly. You start out with the intention to finish but never actually complete the act. Are the husband/wife still committing a sin?

OOOH that’s a good question…never thought about that either… I wonder about that too because I mean you have to keep the love growing with your husband and new things are tried well yeah what happens when you know you are about to correctly but something happens and interrupts it and ends up finishing incorrectly- or not where it should be??? Good question…

 

[Serap]

I think a healthy Catholic marriage is WAY more than this being all about the man and this dry, “alright honey, lie down on your back, it’s time for me to make a baby-making deposit”.

that’s so funny! my husband sometimes comes home and says, “Sweetie, I’m here to make a deposit.”; so when you wrote that, I laughed so hard!

I have a really hard time with all of this as well. As far as my understanding goes, the CCC does not state this as a grave matter. I think the church understands that married couples share a special bond and for the health of marriage, not everything is black and white.

Another thing, what about husbands who use their wife, but have sex the proper way. Isn’t that worse than foreplay?

 

[iluvmybabies]

the reverse would be true as well… i can’t really imagine this…lol…but i’m sure there’s proabably at least one married man out there who doesn’t want to have frequent unions with his wife.

And what about a man who may have a medical problem where he’s physically unable to perform or complete the marital union? Is the wife expected to go w/o sexual contact from her husband?!

I think a healthy Catholic marriage is WAY more than this being all about the man and this dry, “alright honey, lie down on your back, it’s time for me to make a baby-making deposit”.

“And what about a man who may have a medical problem where he’s physically unable to perform or complete the marital union? Is the wife expected to go w/o sexual contact from her husband?!” According to CCC-I believe-and Bible- it’s considered a calling to chastity…

And yup that’s what it seems like but I guess it’s the Catholic way as it’s written in the Bible and whom are we to question that??! I am learning all about this myself since in my family all that was spoken about was everything I did was a sin, I never knew what is allowed or not or what condemns me or not so I am learning about the whole relationship thing as well…SO I guess I must just accept it…And learn some more…Just need to pray for chastity help because I doubt once married I am going to contain myself!! lol

 

[Miserissima]

Well, it’s all about the man because it’s really all about having children (and he’s the one who makes that happen).

Riiight…because the man makes the woman ovulate…

I have to disagree with you there. The whole “procreative and unitive” ideas is about getting both physiological makeups to work together.

“Foreplay” is a relative term. There are ways to be physically intimate without frustrating each other because you have good communication about how you feel and when to stop. This is completely subjective to each couple. It’s an intimate act of self-giving without objectifying the other person or doing it purely for personal gain or any other ulterior motives.

Another thing, what about husbands who use their wife, but have sex the proper way. Isn’t that worse than foreplay?

That’s where perception is all based on intention, and we can’t know anyone else’s intention, in their marriage, for sure. We can only know our own intentions and dispositions, and be as open and communicative with our own spouses as possible.

 

[lifeisbeautiful]

If you refuse to have sex because you cannot get pregnant again as you are already pregnant, what happens if your husband or even your wife is tempted to have an affair.

No one should refuse to have sex because their wife cannot get pregnant again, no one here is suggesting this. The procreative aspect of intercourse basically consists of making sure the man climaxes in the correct place, that nothing is done to impede the natural act that in some does lead to pregnancy, it is independent of the couples ability to get pregnant. A marital embrace can be and should be both unitive and procreative regardless if the woman is infertile, pregnant, post-menopausal etc. An infertile couple can participate in the marital embrace to the fullest, just like any other married couple.

And one more thing about paragraph 2351…it does say sexual pleasure sought for itself…who is to say that a husband and wife are doing any of these things simply for the sexual pleasure alone? I would say that most couples are doing them for a lot more than that.

It says sought for itself isolated from the procreative and unitive purposes. Unless intercourse follows foreplay, there is no way for it to be procreative (and remember, procreative does not mean that pregnancy will result from the act, the marital embrace can have the procreative aspect regardless of the ability of the couple to get pregnant).

The not being open to life issue is mute in all of this b/c this woman is already pregnant.

The issue is not whether or not they are open to life, but whether or not the act includes the procreative aspect, which is different to being able to get pregnant. I am pregnant too, and I know we have to include the procreative aspect in the marital embrace despite the fact that we cannot get pregnant again while being pregnant. The Church’s teachings about love and lust apply to everyone.

My hubby & I also practice NFP but when we’re engaged in the marital act during my non-fertile times, we know we’re not fertile, so aren’t we doing it “just” for pleasure? From what I’m reading, a lot of you are saying the “just for pleasure” intention is sinful. Furthermore, technically speaking, couldn’t you use NFP to always avoid children? I’m not trying to derail this convo anymore than necessary, just trying to throw out yet another perspective.

From the catechism:

The Creator himself . . . established that in the [generative] function, spouses should experience pleasure and enjoyment of body and spirit. Therefore, the spouses do nothing evil in seeking this pleasure and enjoyment. They accept what the Creator has intended for them. At the same time, spouses should know how to keep themselves within the limits of just moderation.146
Whether or not the woman is fertile has nothing to do with the presence of the procreative aspect of the embrace. A couple who is participating in the marital embrace can experience both the unitive and procreative aspects, regardless if the are practicing NFP and only participating in the infertile times. The Catechism quote only says isolated from unitive and procreative, and being infertile does not mean the union is not procreative, so a couple can be participating in the act as it was designed to be, and enjoying the pleasure God put in the act, no problem.

 

[iluvmybabies]

“respect the sperm” lol…sorry, I couldn’t help taking that out of context…hee-heee…

But ooookay, I’ve followed this thread as best I can, and I gotta say this is so bewildering

The not being open to life issue is mute in all of this b/c this woman is already pregnant.

My hubby & I also practice NFP but when we’re engaged in the marital act during my non-fertile times, we know we’re not fertile, so aren’t we doing it “just” for pleasure? From what I’m reading, a lot of you are saying the “just for pleasure” intention is sinful. Furthermore, technically speaking, couldn’t you use NFP to always avoid children? I’m not trying to derail this convo anymore than necessary, just trying to throw out yet another perspective.

Here’s another head-scratcher: The whole issue here, as I’m understanding it, is that whatever we as married couples do in regards to foreplay is OK as long as the foreplay is followed up by and/or completed by intercourse. If that’s an accurate understanding, then haven’t we made this all about the man? In other words, my husband could make me climax manually, and that would NOT be a sin as long as he then entered me to climax himself, but if he climaxed outside of my body that IS a sin? Hello, here’s a hair, anyone care to split it w/me? I’m sorry, I’m reeeally not trying to argue an “anything goes” point of view. Honestly, but this convo sounds like the Old Testament Pharisees, “you can eat this but not that” way of thinking…

I’m just having such a difficult time w/this thread b/c I think (and have always thought) that foreplay (the physical, touching, intent to arouse kind) is a way of mutually pleasuring each other and just more ways of showing our love for each other.

After reading these posts, I’m getting the impression that we’re (along w/the original poster) are in a horrible state of mortal sin…blek. I seriously don’t see this. I really, really don’t.

For my husband and I, our sex life is a balance btwn us (via NFP) having children and not having children. In the “not having children” (not everyone is The Duggar Family - God Bless 'em!) we willingly do other things in a sexual way to keep our marriage healthy, alive, and fun.

Believe me I am there with you!! I barely found out that masturbation was a sin…like last year or the year before…so at 30 years old that to me is barely finding out… Secondly barely finding out about NFP, and 3rdly about this whole foreplay thing… I thought you had to do whatever you could to keep your partner-spouse- happy?? BUT I guess as long as it doesn’t turn him/her on that you are not committing a sin?.. Confucious say this is confusing…

 

[baylee]

Riiight…because the man makes the woman ovulate…

LOL…you can’t be serious…of course, we know that a woman also needs to ovulate…but you also know that what I meant was that if there is no sperm to meet the egg, there won’t be a baby. Thanks for the sarcastic, know-it-all comment.