Forgiveness FAQ

[JaneFrances]

I believe your question was asked by at least one other person. I must have answered the other person’s question after you took a leave from the discussion. The answer i gave went something like this:

During my “leave” from posting, I continued to read occasionally from this thread. I do not recall the question put as I have posed it, nor do I recall your answer as such. For my own edification, it would be great if you could point me in the direction (the post numbers or page is fine) of the exchange you recall so that I can better understand the nature and progression of that particular question/answer discussion. I can’t seem to find it myself.

The passage you offer from Matthew’s gospel is particularly of import as it pertains to false prophets and teachers. I do not see, however, how it pertains specifically to the issue regarding sins between men and the issue of withholding forgiveness.

The straightforward interpretation of the passage you cite acknowledges how good trees (good teachers) will bear good fruit (right teaching). In the same way, bad trees (false teachers) will bear bad fruit (wrong teaching).

Your interpretation seems to be that good trees (“followers of Christ”) will bear good fruit (good words and good deeds) and conversely bad trees (those who are not “followers of Chirst”) will bear bad fruit (bad words and bad deeds). Yet, as a Christian, I know that even Christians sin. Even good trees drop a bad apple every now and then. This is precisely why we rely upon and hope in the Mercy of God for the forgiveness of sins.

You explain:

“By fruit, I take Jesus to mean the words and deeds of those who claim to be followers of Himself. I would make a judgment call based on what a person says and does.”

But, what if a follower of Him says and does something wrong to you? Does this mean that they are not really a follower of Christ? Do you presume, then, that you are perceptive, discerning, and wise enough to know the inner-workings of a human’s heart and mind such that you should rely upon that “judgment call” and withhold forgiveness?

The passage you cite is taken from the middle of Matthew’s gospel, but I think the beginning of Chapter 7 in Matthew is helpful. There, Jesus says:

1"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
3"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

As a Christian and a sinner, I choose to forgive. Perhaps your eyes are clearer than my own.

I appreciate your honesty regarding your choice in withholding forgiveness from the person who you say “did wrong, and agrees that what she did was wrong, and tells me in no uncertain terms that she does not give a flying duck. . .”

This certainly is a good argument of particularity.

One does wonder, though–as it has not been described in the scenario you offer—under what circumstances did this person commit the wrong. Was there something in her formation of conscience or some defect in her mental or emotional state which weakened her such that she is only partially culpable for her trespasses against you? Was she coerced to “agree” that what she did was wrong, hoping that you would leave her alone? Are you sure that after she agreed that she was wrong that she has made no effort in the way of conversion and recompense which you can not perceive? Was her flying duck comment a function of blatant disregard or frustration? These, among others, are all helpful bits of information which truly help flesh out the full scene.

How can you know with sufficiency that what you perceive is that which is true? How can you truly know that she understood the gravity and nature of her sin? How can you truly know that she agrees it was wrong? How can you truly know that she doesn’t give a flying duck? You can’t. That’s the problem.

The extent of the mercy and forgiveness you choose to bestow and refuse a fellow sinner is, as Scripture clearly offers, directly corollary to the mercy and forgiveness God gives and refuses you. I don’t know Chuck Smith, but I have heard the “err on the side of grace” quotation before and I think it fits.

Where is the grace in refusing to forgive someone? How does this bring you and others closer to Christ?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

… Pardoning implies a certain measure of power over the person who has committed the offense. It means letting a person go without paying the price for their offense. Let’s suppose I was a citizen of a country with an autocratice ruler who whimsically decided to take my house so he could build a water park. I could meaningfully say I forgive the ruler, but saying I pardon the ruler would imply I have power to enforce some penalty that I really don’t.

Forgiveness is the disposition of one’s heart to accept a situation without the desire for vengeance. It is something any of us can achieve or not achieve. The idea of pardoning is only relevant if a person has a certain measure of power.

Jim

Jim:

Regarding your definition of forgiveness, that is:

Forgiveness is the disposition of one’s heart to accept a situation without the desire for vengeance.
I’d say you are giving a definition of either mercy or forgiveness. Your description of what forgiveness is agrees with definition #2 that i found at www.Dictionary.com.

mer·cy /ˈmɜrhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngsi/ Spelled Pronunciationmur-see]

… 2. a disposition to be kind and forgiving; “in those days a wife had to depend on the mercifulness of her husband” [syn: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/mercifulness”]mercifulness] [ant: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/mercilessness”]mercilessness] …

It also agrees with definition # 4 of forgiveness found at the same Web site: for·give /fərˈgɪv/Spelled Pronunciationfor-giv]… 4.to cease to feel resentment against: *to forgive one’s enemies. *…
However, this is not all that mercy and forgiveness require of us, i believe, for what you are describing is how you and i should forgive with our thoughts. Please tell me, Jim, should you and i show mercy and forgive those who sin against us with our thoughts only, or should we also forgive them with both our words and deeds?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

… Forgiveness encompasses more than not keeping a record of wrongs. However not keeping a record of wrongs does NOT mean entirely forgetting what happened.

If you were to entirely forget what that person had done, you would not be capable of loving them because you would not be able to help protect that person from the near occasion of sin. …

Doc:

I want to come to some sort of an agreement about what forgiveness is before i answer your questions. If we do not agree as to what forgiveness is, how will we ever agree on how to forgive?

Would you at least say that whatever else forgiveness is, and whatever other acts forgiveness requires, it must at least be that kind of love that “keeps no record of wrongs”? That is, do you agree that keeping no record of wrongs is essential to forgiving and if i keep a record of wrongs i have not forgiven?

 

[guanophore]

So, i ask God, “If i knew a person’s actions would result in her being condemned to hell and i did not rebuke her for this, would i be loving her or hating her?”

The answer i think i receive from the Holy Spirit and the reason God gave me is this: Rather than sin by forgiving her and not pointing out her sin that separates her from God, the most loving thing to do is to rebuke her (gently if possible) for her sin. Rebuking a person is, of course, keeping a record of her wrongs, especially if i must rebuke her more than once. And keeping a record of wrongs is certainly the opposite of forgiveness.

I don’t think so, Socrates. Confronting a person about their behavior is not the same as “keeping a record”. Not if the “record” is the sense of a ledger, where the person owes you because they wronged you. Scripture says “vengence is mine, saith the Lord - I will repay”. We can hold one another accountable for behavior without “charging” that person’s sin against them.

Q. 14. Since Jesus kept a record of wrongs when people refused to repent (e.g., Matthew 23) how can it be wrong for you and i to do the same?

Don’t you think that the Almighty has a few perogatives that He has reserved to Himself?

Herder:

I agree that forgiveness does not always require repentance. Jesus, for example, prayed as He suffered on the cross:

“Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.” (Luke 23:34)This is not the same as forgiving unconditionally, however. The condition, in this case, was a lack of culpability. The Roman soldiers thought they were executing a criminal who deserved the death penalty.

Well, they were still culpable, or they would not need forgiveness. Perhaps their sin was not AS serious because they did not understand who He was.

None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.(1 Corinthians 2:8)They did not know they were doing wrong.

But wrong was still done. The Lord of Glory was still unjustly put to death. However, this is an interesting passage. It seems that Jesus was clear with all the rulers, secular and religious alike. On some level they “knew”.

This is one condition a person might meet in order for you or i to forgive him. As stated earlier, Jesus gives another condition a person might meet to be forgiven:

“… if he repents, forgive him.”(Luke 17:3)There might, of course, be other conditions a person might meet to be forgiven of which i am unaware. If you have a Scripture that suggests one, please let me know.

I do not think there are conditions. I don’t think this is a condition either. I think this is an instruction to avoid nagging a person who has already repented.

"When he came to his senses, … His sin was leaving home. He repented of his sin by returning home. His father forgave him, ran to him, embraced him, kissed him, and welcomed him home.

On what basis do you determine that his “sin was leaving home”?

There is no evidence that the father in this story ever held anything against the son, or was in a state of unforgiveness.

The question i should ask you, Herder, is what about the son who never left home?  Did the father forgive him, too? Jesus says of him:

"The older brother became angry and refused to go in. So his father went out and pleaded with him. But he answered his father, ‘Look! All these years I’ve been slaving for you and never disobeyed your orders. Yet you never gave me even a young goat so I could celebrate with my friends. But when this son of yours who has squandered your property with prostitutes comes home, you kill the fattened calf for him!’ " ‘My son,’ the father said, ‘you are always with me, and everything I have is yours. But we had to celebrate and be glad, because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ "(Luke 15:28-31)The irony of the story is that the son who stayed home was just as lost as the son who left, for he did not repent of his hatred for his brother.
​

There is nothing in this story that indicates something was held against the older brother either. Why would the father need to “forgive” the older brother? He did nothing wrong…​

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

During my “leave” from posting, I continued to read occasionally from this thread. I do not recall the question put as I have posed it, nor do I recall your answer as such. For my own edification, it would be great if you could point me in the direction (the post numbers or page is fine) of the exchange you recall so that I can better understand the nature and progression of that particular question/answer discussion. I can’t seem to find it myself. …

I will be happy to do so if i can find the time. I must love others in my life besides you, dear Janet.

 

[JaneFrances]

I will be happy to do so if i can find the time. I must love others in my life besides you, dear Janet.

Oh, absolutely. I would never ask you to spend time doing something that isn’t a priority to you.

As you have already spent so much time here trying to convince us that your understanding of forgiveness is the correct one, I just assumed that you would be willing to point me in the direction of the discussion you already had. This would be so helpful as it would deter me from repeating things that you have already discussed with others.

Again, I simply can not find the disucssion you recall, so if you can find the time, I’d really appreciate a post number or page number reference.

And, when you find the time, could please clarify your position on these questions you seem to have overlooked in my last post? They are as follows:

How can you know with sufficiency that what you perceive is that which is true? How can you truly know that she understood the gravity and nature of her sin? How can you truly know that she agrees it was wrong? How can you truly know that she doesn’t give a flying duck? You can’t. That’s the problem.

The extent of the mercy and forgiveness you choose to bestow and refuse a fellow sinner is, as Scripture clearly offers, directly corollary to the mercy and forgiveness God gives and refuses you. I don’t know Chuck Smith, but I have heard the “err on the side of grace” quotation before and I think it fits.

Where is the grace in refusing to forgive someone? How does this bring you and others closer to Christ?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

… How can you know with sufficiency that what you perceive is that which is true? How can you truly know that she understood the gravity and nature of her sin? How can you truly know that she agrees it was wrong? How can you truly know that she doesn’t give a flying duck? You can’t. That’s the problem.

The extent of the mercy and forgiveness you choose to bestow and refuse a fellow sinner is, as Scripture clearly offers, directly corollary to the mercy and forgiveness God gives and refuses you. I don’t know Chuck Smith, but I have heard the “err on the side of grace” quotation before and I think it fits.

Where is the grace in refusing to forgive someone? How does this bring you and others closer to Christ?

The extent i would show mercy is to the fullest extent that is possible, for i agree with you and the good doctor that mercy should always be shown unconditionally. The extent that i would forgive is to the fullest extent that the one who needs my forgiveness will allow, because i believe Jesus teaches that forgiveness should always be shown conditionally. I know you disagree, which is why we are having this discussion.

To better understand one another, my dear Janet, i genuinely believe a discussion about the nature of mercy and the nature of forgiveness is in order. How are they alike? How are they different? Is it possible to show mercy without forgiving? The answers to these questions will give me a deeper understanding of what it means to be merciful and forgiving.

I’m one of wisdom’s lovers, so to speak, for that is what i have been told the word philosopher means. Since God is the source of all wisdom, and the one who is the Truth, understanding what mercy and forgiveness are and how to act merciful and forgiving will bring me closer to God. At least, it will help me see mercy and forgiveness more like He sees it and show me how to show mercy and forgive the way he shows mercy and forgives. Like David, i want to be a man after God’s own heart.

---

To answer your questions:

*How can you know with sufficiency that what you perceive is that which is true? How can you truly know that she understood the gravity and nature of her sin? How can you truly know that she agrees it was wrong? How can you truly know that she doesn’t give a flying duck? *I think it might help you see my point of view if i were to ask a similar question of you. I’m sure you recall that St. Paul, besides telling you that “love … keeps no record of wrongs,” also tells you that “love … always trusts”. I think you would agree that loving someone by trusting him is a conditional kind of love. That is, you should only trust those who deserve your trust by meeting the conditions for you to trust them.

With this in mind, lets say your husband, or the husband of someone close to you, has an affair. When confronted about it, he leaves you or your friend, hires a lawyer and sues for divorce. The divorce becomes final. Later the woman with whom he ran off leaves him and he comes back, begging for forgiveness and asking to remarry.

How do you (or your friend) know with sufficiency that the disloyal lech has truly repented and should be trusted again? What conditions would he have to meet before you would remarry the man, or advise your good friend or relative to remarry him?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

… Again, I simply can not find the disucssion you recall, so if you can find the time, I’d really appreciate a post number or page number reference…

If you are intent on finding it, you can do a search on each of the 25 pages of this discussion thread for the phrase Luke 6:45. As i recall, this was the passage i quoted to demonstrate that you can tell what a man is thinking by listening to his words.

 

[JaneFrances]

If you are intent on finding it, you can do a search on each of the 25 pages of this discussion thread for the phrase Luke 6:45. As i recall, this was the passage i quoted to demonstrate that you can tell what a man is thinking by listening to his words.

Thank you for your help and guidance. I will certainly begin looking for the discussion you have recounted in part.

 

[trogiah]

Jim:

/Spelled Pronunciationfor-giv]
… 4.to cease to feel resentment against: *to forgive one’s enemies. *…However, this is not all that mercy and forgiveness require of us, i believe, for what you are describing is how you and i should forgive with our thoughts. Please tell me, Jim, should you and i show mercy and forgive those who sin against us with our thoughts only, or should we also forgive them with both our words and deeds?

I remain convinced that the central meaning of forgiveness, the way in which Jesus viewed the idea, is the disposition of the heart to not feel anger, bitterness, and/or resentment.

This disposition will show itself in the way a person speaks and acts (or else the person has not really forgiven) but the words and actions that show a person has forgiven another will vary widely.

Sometimes the person that is being forgiven is already dead or in some other way completely outside the presence of the person doing the forgiving. In that case, the most someone could do is pray for the one they are forgiving.

Sometimes the person being forgiven is in daily contact with the person doing the forgiving. The words and actions that would most accurately reflect true forgiveness could vary widely. And I think, as has been discussed at length, Forgiveness can be real even though trust hasnot been reestablished nor has reconciliation been achieved. I don’t think much more could be said within the limited space of one response without knowing the details of a particular situation

Jim

 

[DrPiano]

Doc:

I want to come to some sort of an agreement about what forgiveness is before i answer your questions. If we do not agree as to what forgiveness is, how will we ever agree on how to forgive?

Would you at least say that whatever else forgiveness is, and whatever other acts forgiveness requires, it must at least be that kind of love that “keeps no record of wrongs”? That is, do you agree that keeping no record of wrongs is essential to forgiving and if i keep a record of wrongs i have not forgiven?

Soc,

I am truly sorry, but I believe I am going to bow out of this conversation. I am finding that it is taking up increasing amounts of my time and as social and family stresses have cropped up, I no longer have the emotional or mental strength to continue this conversation in charitable Christian love. I fear that very soon I may loose patience or become unkind. I am weary of trying to restate my position in new ways and do not want that to translate to becoming unloving. I am very sorry that I cannot continue - however, I will remain subscribed to the thread and as time/energy permits, I may repost sometime in the future.

I will pray that your heart will be open to the wisdom that myself and others have been sharing with you. You’ve asked for our opinions and definitions and then proceeded to nitpick them and/or twist them - fruit that indicates you may not be forthright in your statement that you are simply seeking the truth. As I’ve said, I never liked Socrates/the Socratic method - I personally find it to be disingenuous. It isn’t anything personal against you - perhaps it just doesn’t fit with my personality. I pray that you are being sincere, and I will give you the benefit of the doubt and believe that that is the case - you are simply searching for wisdom. Open your heart and listen. As many of us have tried to teach you, withholding forgiveness can cause serious damage to you and often does little to the other person.

I do not believe that you need me to again restate my definition of forgiveness or keeping a record of wrongs. I feel that I have made them perfectly clear. However, I am more interested in hearing your answers to my questions. If you feel that we need to be on the same page, you can begin answering them by defining - as carefully as you are expecting from us - the words you feel may be misunderstood. I will be interested in hearing what you say.

Please do not hold this against me. I am sorry if I offend you or hurt you by leaving the discussion. I will pray that God opens your eyes and ears to His Truth.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

I don’t think so, Socrates. Confronting a person about their behavior is not the same as “keeping a record”. Not if the “record” is the sense of a ledger, where the person owes you because they wronged you. Scripture says “vengence is mine, saith the Lord - I will repay”. We can hold one another accountable for behavior without “charging” that person’s sin against them.

Don’t you think that the Almighty has a few perogatives that He has reserved to Himself?

… There is no evidence that the father in this story ever held anything against the son, or was in a state of unforgiveness.

There is nothing in this story that indicates something was held against the older brother either. Why would the father need to “forgive” the older brother? He did nothing wrong…

Hey, Mr. G, good to have you back! You have asked a lot of questions all dealing with how God forgives and how i ought to forgive. What i’m interested in, however, is learning what you know about forgiveness. In another conversation with me, you have described a kind of mystical way of obtaining knowledge of which i have no experience, and i’m interested in seeing how God speaks to you in this way. Maybe you are in tune to a way of communicating He has that, to me, is like listening to a song sung in a foreign language. Perhaps you can interpret the lyrics of the Holy Spirit’s melody to me?

From the questions you asked, i think i understand what you believe about forgiveness, but i do not understand one thing: I do not know what the Spirit’s song has told you is the best, most virtuous, most wise and most beautiful way to forgive. Please, will you tell me, is the perfect way to forgive one that forgives conditionally or unconditionally?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

I remain convinced that the central meaning of forgiveness, the way in which Jesus viewed the idea, is the disposition of the heart to not feel anger, bitterness, and/or resentment.

This disposition will show itself in the way a person speaks and acts (or else the person has not really forgiven) but the words and actions that show a person has forgiven another will vary widely.

Sometimes the person that is being forgiven is already dead or in some other way completely outside the presence of the person doing the forgiving. In that case, the most someone could do is pray for the one they are forgiving.

Sometimes the person being forgiven is in daily contact with the person doing the forgiving. The words and actions that would most accurately reflect true forgiveness could vary widely. And I think, as has been discussed at length, Forgiveness can be real even though trust hasnot been reestablished nor has reconciliation been achieved. I don’t think much more could be said within the limited space of one response without knowing the details of a particular situation

Jim

Jim:

Yes, i agree that genuine forgiveness will result in words and deeds that demonstrate the love of forgiveness that the forgiver has in his mind. Would you say then, Jim, as we look at the definitions of forgiveness, that to pardon a person (if one has the power to do so) would be an act of love that would demonstrate a person truly forgives?for·give /fərˈgɪv/Spelled Pronunciationfor-giv]1.to grant pardon for or remission of (an offense, debt, etc.); absolve. 2.to give up all claim on account of; remit (a debt, obligation, etc.). 3.to grant pardon to (a person). 4.to cease to feel resentment against: *to forgive one’s enemies. *5.to cancel an indebtedness or liability of: *to forgive the interest owed on a loan. **–verb (used without object) *6.to pardon an offense or an offender. For a specific illustration, lets use one similar to that which i give Janet:Lets say your spouse, or the spouse of someone close to you, has an affair. When confronted about it, she leaves you or your friend, hires a lawyer and sues for divorce. The divorce becomes final. Later the guy with whom she ran off leaves her and she comes back, begging for forgiveness and asking to remarry. How would you (or how would you advise your friend) to forgive her? What action should you or he take to show you had pardoned her for her sin? How should you or your friend demonstrate you have kept no record of her wrongs?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Soc,

I am truly sorry, but I believe I am going to bow out of this conversation. I am finding that it is taking up increasing amounts of my time and as social and family stresses have cropped up, I no longer have the emotional or mental strength to continue this conversation in charitable Christian love. … However, I am more interested in hearing your answers to my questions. If you feel that we need to be on the same page, you can begin answering them by defining - as carefully as you are expecting from us - the words you feel may be misunderstood. I will be interested in hearing what you say.

Please do not hold this against me. I am sorry if I offend you or hurt you by leaving the discussion. I will pray that God opens your eyes and ears to His Truth.

Doc:

No problem! I shall be sad to see you go, but appreciate the time you have given me. I pray daily that God will give me the wisdom i do not have. Please do pray with me for the same.

I do apologize for not answering your questions earlier. I believe, now that it was selfish of me to act in this way. I will do my best to answer them now:

**Quote:***Incidentally, I was wondering if you would say that in loving another person, one is required to do all those acts of love as circumstances allow?**Also, you have not yet responded to my postulation that offering or giving forgiveness is equal to forgiving but NOT equal to receiving that forgiveness. Nor have you responded to my postulation that God offers forgiveness (forgives) us without condition but that it is us who rejects that forgiveness (by not repenting and admitting that what we did was a sin) and therefore spend eternity apart from him through our own choice. *
The answer to your 1st question is that in loving another person, i believe i should do all those acts of love as Jesus Himself would do them. I believe i should love as Jesus loves me in everything i do, including in the way i forgive others. The only circumstances i see that would not allow me to love as He loves are my own sinful desires.

In answer to your second and third questions, i would say that offering forgiveness (or being prepared to forgive) is not the same thing as forgiving. Let me give an analogy: Lets say an Olympic athlete is prepared to win a gold medal in the 2008 Olympic games in China. Being prepared to win the gold is not the same as having the medal draped around her neck as the national anthem of her nation plays. In the same way, being prepared to forgive is not the same thing as forgiving.

You asked about the way that God forgives. The same is true with Him as well. St. Peter tells you and me

The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

(2 Peter 3:9)
His being prepared to forgive is not the same thing as forgiving. If it was, then those in hell who rejected his offer of forgiveness and refused to repent would be forgiven! This, of course, is absurd.

Just what is being prepared to forgive, then, if it is not forgiveness? It is mercy, for, as you might recall, one of the definitions of mercy is to be prepared to forgive. In this sense, then, being merciful is not the same as being forgiving. Just as God wants all people to repent so He can forgive them, i want those who wronged me to repent so i can forgive them.

 

[Philthy]

Philthy:

Do you have the book and chapter where i might find the quote so i can read it in context?

Sorry - I thought it was a familiar section. Matthew 6:15. It follows the Lords Prayer…“forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us”

Im glad to see some resolution on the relationship between loving acts independent of forgiveness, and forgiveness per se. Im not sure what the big snag was, or what, exactly needed to be clarified but your amended conclusion should not have been difficult to arrive at in 3 posts…

 

[Philthy]

Q. 18. What is the difference between showing mercy and forgiving?

forgiveness necessarily involves a wrong having been commited; mercy does not ( it can be synonymous with compassion).

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Sorry - I thought it was a familiar section. Matthew 6:15. It follows the Lords Prayer…“forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us”

Im glad to see some resolution on the relationship between loving acts independent of forgiveness, and forgiveness per se. Im not sure what the big snag was, or what, exactly needed to be clarified but your amended conclusion should not have been difficult to arrive at in 3 posts…

Philthy:

Please notice that our Lord does not say

Forgive us our trespasses because we forgive those who trespass against us.Rather, what He does say is

Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.The word as means in the same way. So, what He is saying we should pray is

Forgive us our trespasses in the same way we forgive those who trespass against us.Now, how should you and i forgive each other? St. Paul has the answer, for he writes

Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you.(Colossians 3:13)Notice again that the word as is used. St. Paul is asserting that you and i should forgive others *in the same way *that God forgives you and i. Jesus says the same, for He tells us

For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.(Matthew 7:2)The way that we are to judge each other and forgive each other is the way that He will judge or forgive us. We should forgive each other the same way that He forgives us. For His way of forgiving is the only right way.

The question you and i should ask God, then, is “How do you forgive us, Father?” What do you think, Philthy? Do we have to meet any conditions before Jesus will forgive our sins?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

forgiveness necessarily involves a wrong having been commited; mercy does not ( it can be synonymous with compassion).

Yes, i can see that Philthy. An act of mercy can be an act of compassion shown to someone who has not sinned. I think it can sometimes be an act of compassion shown to someone who has sinned, too.

An example might be a judge who shows mercy to a convicted murderer by giving him life in prison instead of the death penalty. Mercy in this case is an act of compassion expressed toward a guilty person in the form of leniency.

Forgiveness, on the other hand, is more than merely being lenient. It is granting a pardon. An example of forgiveness might be where a judge gives a convicted murderer the death penalty, but the governor of the state where the murderer is to be executed grants him a pardon. The guilty man is then set free, absolved from any penalty for his crimes.

Do you think these are accurate examples of mercy and forgiveness, Philthy?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Thank you for your help and guidance. I will certainly begin looking for the discussion you have recounted in part.

My apologies, Jane. I searched for the reply i mentioned and could not find it. I now believe it was one i made in another discussion thread. I think i was responding to Michael in that discussion. I hope you did not spend too much time looking for my misplaced reply!

To summarize, the way i would sufficiently determine whether a person had repented is to observe her actions and words and make a judgement call. If she said she had repented of getting high, and i caught her shooting up, that would be a good indication she had not repented. If she flatly stated she would not stop getting high, i’d take her at her word and believe her. I admit it is a harder thing to determine whether a person is lying when she says she has repented and then hides the fact that she has not. I’m taking a risk in forgiving then, but its a risk i think i should be willing to take.

I’m curious how you would determine whether someone, once having lost your trust, should be trusted again. What would a person have to do to regain your trust?

 

[DrPiano]

Philthy:

Please notice that our Lord does not say

Bear with each other anForgive us our trespasses because we forgive those who trespass against us.Rather, what He does say is

Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.The word as means in the same way. So, what He is saying we should pray is

Forgive us our trespasses in the same way we forgive those who trespass against us.Now, how should you and i forgive each other? St. Paul has the answer, for he writes

d forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you.(Colossians 3:13)Notice again that the word as is used. St. Paul is asserting that you and i should forgive others *in the same way *that God forgives you and i. Jesus says the same, for He tells us

For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.(Matthew 7:2)The way that we are to judge each other and forgive each other is the way that He will judge or forgive us. We should forgive each other the same way that He forgives us. For His way of forgiving is the only right way.

The question you and i should ask God, then, is “How do you forgive us, Father?” What do you think, Philthy? Do we have to meet any conditions before Jesus will forgive our sins?

I know I said I wasn’t going to post but this intrigued me, so I decided to post once more. (Like I said, I am planning to at least keep up with the thread.)

The word “as” has multiple meanings, not all of which fit with your interpretation of the gospel. From www.merriam-webster.com:

1 : AS IF <looks as he had seen a ghost – S. T. Coleridge>
2 : in or to the same degree in which – usually used as a correlative after an adjective or adverb modified by adverbial as or so
3 : in the way or manner that
4 : in accordance with what or the way in which
5 : WHILE, WHEN
6 : regardless of the degree to which : THOUGH <improbable as it seems, it’s true>
7 : for the reason that : BECAUSE, SINCE
8 : that the result is

Please note that some of these definitions are different and could fit in these verses just as well. Take for example, #5

“Forgive us our trespasses WHEN we forgive those who trespass against us.” OR “Forgive us our trespasses WHEN we forgive those who trespass against us.”

Or #7: “Forgive us our trespasses SINCE we forgive those who trespass against us.” OR “Forgive us our trespasses BECAUSE we forgive those who trespass against us.”

While you’ve scolded some of us for choosing only one definition of the word, you do it to. How do you know that your choice is right?

The same could fit in

Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you.(Colossians 3:13)

This could very well work as “Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive BECAUSE the Lord forgave you.” OR “Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive SINCE the Lord forgave you.”

Perhaps you are focusing too much on a single usage of “as.”

God’s Truth be with you!