Forgiveness FAQ

[trogiah]

The question to answer, Jim, is this: How do we know whether forgiveness (or keeping no record of wrongs) is a conditional act of love like trust or an unconditional act of love like kindness?

I’m afraid no answer comes to mind at the moment. Thought I would say, since I’ve been part of this thread a while, that I will likely be out of touch with computers for a while.

For me this discussion has been somewhat fruitful.

peace
Jim

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

I’m afraid no answer comes to mind at the moment. Thought I would say, since I’ve been part of this thread a while, that I will likely be out of touch with computers for a while.

For me this discussion has been somewhat fruitful.

peace
Jim

Thank you for the time you devoted for the sake of love and truth, Jim.

Something to think about while you are away: Isn’t the answer to the question that you and i should show mercy unconditionally but forgive conditionally, because this is the way God forgives?

He, of course, forgives only those who (1) are not responsible for their sins or (2) repent of their sins. So, we should love others unconditionally in every way EXCEPT trusting them and forgiving them. It takes two to trust; it takes two to forgive the way God forgives.

Embrace the grace,
Soc

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

I think it a stroke of genius that St. Paul put the word always next to the word trusts in this passage

4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. 8Love never fails.

(1 Corinthians 13)
It makes it difficult to read without stopping to think.

The first time i read this with an attitude to learn i asked God, “What do you mean by saying love always trust? I cannot trust everyone!” That was years ago, and i think it has not been until now that i have better understood what St. Paul was up to. Yes, i should always trust, but only those who meet the conditions to receive my trust.

These words have taught me that not all expressions of love are unconditional. It helped me consider whether other expressions of love (like forgiveness) might also be conditional. Were it not for the word always, i might have never stopped to take a closer look and wrestle with the meaning of the love chapter.

 

[Philthy]

Now i am the one confused, Philthy! For you just said that the most virtuous, most righteous, most God-like, most wise, most beautiful, most holy, most loving and perfect way to forgive is to forgive as God Himself forgives.

Now you are saying that the most virtuous, most righteous, most God-like, most wise, most beautiful, most holy, most loving and perfect way to forgive is to forgive everyone, even if they meet no conditions at all.

You must believe then, Philthy, that God forgives everyone regardless of what conditions they meet, because that is how i am supposed to forgive. Are you saying that repentance is not a condition required to escape God’s judgement and hell?

If you attempt to equate YOUR forgiving someone with GOD forgiving someone you will remain confused. Let me reveal your confusion to you with 2 simple questions:
Does everyone you forgive go to Heaven by virtue of your having forgiven them? Y or N
Does everyone whom God forgives go to Heaven by virtue of His having forgiven them? Y or N

Just remember when God was in the midst of his passion he said, “Forgive them for they know not what they do” What conditions do you suppose they met to merit that request?

 

[Philthy]

Q. 21. Shouldn’t you and i forgive in the best, most virtuous, most righteous, most wise, most beautiful, most holy, most God-like, most loving and most nearly perfect way we can?

We should love as God loves and forgive as He forgives. Isn’t this truth self-evident?

Yes and No.

We CANNOT forgive as God forgives in the fullest sense. God is worthy of judging all of creation. God’s forgiveness communicates grace and restores the relationship between Himself and the sinner which is eternal life.
We are not worthy of judging another. Our forgiveness does not communicate grace and has no bearing on the relationship between God and the sinner. Our forgiving another has a bearing on OUR OWN relationship with God. Forgiving another unconditionally is a form of dying to one’s self. Relegating eternal judgement to God alone is an act of faith which glorifies God.
For the purposes of what I think you are trying to discern in forgiving, your forgiveness should be modeled after Christ and his example while on earth.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

… Just remember when God was in the midst of his passion he said, “Forgive them for they know not what they do” What conditions do you suppose they met to merit that request?

The condition the Roman executioners met was that they did not know the gravity of their sin. They thought the one they were torturing was guilty and deserved His punishment. They were not responsible for their sin because they had no idea that what they were doing was wrong. As St. Paul wrote

None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

(1 Corinthians 2:8)

Jesus also gives us insight into how God forgives, for He rebuked His enemies with this warning:

Jesus said, “If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains.”

(John 9:41)
The self-righteous religious leaders who opposed Jesus knew He received His power from God, so they knew full well what they were doing was wrong when they arranged for Him to be crucified.

The Roman guards met the condition to be forgiven by not being culpable, the hypocritical religious enemies of Jesus did not. I think God holds us accountable for what we know, not for what we don’t know, don’t you Philthy?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Philthy:

Do you think God forgives conditionally or unconditionally? That is, do you think He requires you and i to meet conditions (such as being unaware of our sin or repenting of our sin) before He forgives us?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

…Does everyone you forgive go to Heaven by virtue of your having forgiven them? Y or N

Does everyone whom God forgives go to Heaven by virtue of His having forgiven them? Y or N
…

N

N

 

[guanophore]

Simply remembering the wrongs of another is not “keeping a record” of those wrongs. Acting on those memories is worse than simply keeping a record of wrongs. Christ remembered all the wrongs of the woman at the well, but he still forgave her perfectly. “keeping no record of wrongs” is probably best viewed metaphorically as something impossibly pure - to not even remember them.

No, I think it is more like a ledger of debt and payment. Jesus did not hold her wrongs against her. He told her to go get the man, and He would give them both Living Water. He was not expecting any payment, as He knew He would pay the price of her sins. He expected repentance, and obedience, only.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Yes and No.

We CANNOT forgive as God forgives in the fullest sense. God is worthy of judging all of creation. God’s forgiveness communicates grace and restores the relationship between Himself and the sinner which is eternal life.
We are not worthy of judging another. Our forgiveness does not communicate grace and has no bearing on the relationship between God and the sinner. Our forgiving another has a bearing on OUR OWN relationship with God. Forgiving another unconditionally is a form of dying to one’s self. Relegating eternal judgement to God alone is an act of faith which glorifies God.
For the purposes of what I think you are trying to discern in forgiving, your forgiveness should be modeled after Christ and his example while on earth.

Please answer my question in the previous reply (#407), Philthy, so i will know how to respond to your reply quoted above.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

… He expected repentance, and obedience, only.

Should you and i expect nothing less before we forgive, Guano? Should we not require, as Jesus requires, that the one who sins against us repents of his sin and obeys God?

 

[guanophore]

God hates divorce as much as He hates domestic violence. It’s a true tragedy when a woman must choose to suffer either one or the other. We should weep with such women, and with God, when we pray for them. Perhaps even righteous indignation against those who seek to harm their spouses (in either sin) might also be in order? Another great topic for another discussion thread. It’s a sad subject, but one worthy of discussion.

A woman should not commit a sin (divorce) to avoid another sin (violence).

Back to our discussion, Jim: You said, “Is that keeping a record of wrongs? Maybe…” and i say you are correct. For one can hold a record of wrongs without holding a grudge.

I don’t agree with this assertion. Please demonstrate how one can hold a record of wrongs without a grudge? I think this is impossible.

Simply remembering the wrongs of another and taking action to hold the person responsible for those wrongs, and liable for those wrongs, and culpable for those wrongs, and so on is indeed keeping a record of wrongs.

I contest this definition of record keeping.

If this is not an example of keeping a record of wrongs, then of what is? Whatever we choose to call it, recalling the sins of another is essential to holding another accountable for his sins.

Maybe I missed the “example”. It DOES matter what you choose to call it. Accountability is not the same as holding a grudge.

Would you not say then, Jim, that the condition that one who wronged must meet in order to regain the trust of the one who was wronged is this—he must demonstrate his sorrow for those wrongs and his intent to never commit those wrongs again?

I think this is an example of keeping a record. this is a requirement for forgiveness.

In the case of divorce, it might be wise to advise the divorcer to go to counseling with the divorcee and a qualified priest. Perhaps an honest, emotional discussion between the three of them would reveal the true state of mind of the one who had committed the sins of divorce and infidelity and perhaps violence?

The divorce should not be obtained in the first place, since committing a sin will not solve another sin. Perhaps counseling may be able to restore the relationship, but not without forgiveness first.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Guano:

Should you and i expect nothing less before we forgive? Should we not require, as Jesus requires, that the one who sins against us repents of his sin and obeys God?

 

[Philthy]

Philthy:

Do you think God forgives conditionally or unconditionally? That is, do you think He requires you and i to meet conditions (such as being unaware of our sin or repenting of our sin) before He forgives us?

Im confused - are you asking how God the son forgave while on earth as a man or are you asking how God the Father forgives?
They are different considerations, I think. Jesus was unconditional as a man forgiving men; God the Father has conditions. Im bracing for the heat which will undoubtedly follow…

 

[Philthy]

N

N

Really? Are you a universalist or something? Do you believe all souls go to Heaven? If you have no guilt from sin death has no power over you, does it? If God declares someone free of guilt who will condemn them?

 

[Philthy]

Guano:

Should you and i expect nothing less before we forgive? Should we not require, as Jesus requires, that the one who sins against us repents of his sin and obeys God?

Hmmmm, lets see. God has perfect knowledge of when someone has repented and is in obedience - do any of us???
No, we don’t. What we do have perfect knowledge of is that God is the one to make such judgements - we cannot. And if we try to, we try to make ourselves gods. ringing any bells???

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Im confused - are you asking how God the son forgave while on earth as a man or are you asking how God the Father forgives?
They are different considerations, I think. Jesus was unconditional as a man forgiving men; God the Father has conditions. Im bracing for the heat which will undoubtedly follow…

That’s an interesting viewpoint which i have not considered, Philty. Does God the Son forgive those who God the Father does not? Does God the Son forgive in a different way from God the Father?

I know there are many passages in St. John’s gospel where Jesus compares Himself to the Father. For example, He says

“I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.”(John 5:19)

and"You do not know me or my Father," Jesus replied. “If you knew me, you would know my Father also.”

(John 8:20)

and “I and the Father are one.”

(John 10:30)
and

Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father."

(John 10:37-38)

andJesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?”

(John 14:9)

If you and i want to know God the Father, says Jesus, just look at Jesus Himself. What Jesus thinks, God thinks; what Jesus believes, God believes; what Jesus says, God says; and what Jesus does God does.

It seems to me that if Jesus forgave a different way from God the Father, He and the Father could not both be God, for God does not disagree with Himself. God is both the Father and the Son, so God will not act one way as the Father and a different way as the Son. If He did, He would not be one God, but two (or worse, yet, He would be one God who is schizophrenic).

Jesus even prays about you and me, saying

“My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one.”

(John 17:20-22)

I think it pleases God when you and i try to be one with Him the way Jesus was one with Him. It seems to me that being one with God the Father means trying to do everything the way that He does, such as loving the way that He does, and forgiving the way that He does. What else would it mean to be one with God?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Hmmmm, lets see. God has perfect knowledge of when someone has repented and is in obedience - do any of us???
No, we don’t. What we do have perfect knowledge of is that God is the one to make such judgements - we cannot. And if we try to, we try to make ourselves gods. ringing any bells???

True, Philthy, only God can forgive perfectly!

However, didn’t Jesus tell us to, “Be perfect…just as your Father in heaven is perfect.” (Matthew 5:48)?

Should not you and i forgive as perfectly as we can? Doesn’t forgiving as perfectly as we can mean forgiving as close to the way God forgives as we can?

 

[trogiah]

Something to think about while you are away: Isn’t the answer to the question that you and i should show mercy unconditionally but forgive conditionally, because this is the way God forgives?

He, of course, forgives only those who (1) are not responsible for their sins or (2) repent of their sins. So, we should love others unconditionally in every way EXCEPT trusting them and forgiving them. It takes two to trust; it takes two to forgive the way God forgives.

Embrace the grace,
Soc

I guess I couldn’t stay away.

I am wondering how you came to the conclusion that God forgives according to the two conditions you stated. My understanding of Scripture leads me to believe that the only condition a person MUST meet in order to be forgiven of sins is to practice the forgiveness of others.

Also, I was considering a post or two about Jesus saying on the cross “Forgive them Father for they don’t know what they do.” I don’t think Jesus saying this had much to do with the actual forgiveness of the people who were crucifying him. The statement had everything to do with Jesus continuing to be a person who practiced forgiveness in all aspects of his life. Jesus was the one who was “saved” by Jesus being able to forgive his tormentors. That probably seems like an odd idea, (it does to me) but the more I think about it, the more it makes sense. Jesus was fully human, subject to temptation up to the moment of his death. One temptation at that point would have been to feel bitterness and resentment agains someone or something. He showed that he did not and thus overcame that last temptation.

Whether or not those who crucified Jesus were forgiven of their sins depended on whether or not they practiced forgiveness in their own lives.

Jim

 

[byrdele]

Hello, I am byrdele and please to meet all of you. This is directed to a comment made by LilyM and is also to anyone who can answer this dilemma scripturally and based on Catholic tradition.

My brother hurt me very badly by blurting some hateful things out about my personality and my quest to get where I am today (he feels I have always got what I wanted - wrong. I have always got what I needed, though, and am happy with that because I don’t dwell on the disappointments and the failures - I learn from them). OK, I sent him back a detailed email in which I bring up everything he said and show him that that is not the case (he forgets we wanted children and didn’t get them, that I grabbed a job opportunity I didn’t even want because I needed to get to work out of university whereas he did not - he turned down two. Unfortunately, our youthful decisions live on). He has not responded. What brought all this on actually was the way he was treating my elderly mom. We all support her and he stopped his payment even while he is still employed. He has done this before and I found out after the fact and made it up until he could start paying again. I understand not having the money, that’s one thing, but we requested he let us know if it ever happened again, which he did not do. He is prideful and could have just phoned us and asked for help. We would have all (all the siblings) been ok with that. He has come up with all these ideas on how to lessen the support we pay Mom. Some of them are good ideas on paper but poor ideas in practicality and have already been looked into, but he keeps insisting on carrying them out.

I do forgive him because he is stressed out. He also has recently married and is torn between his new wife, a love for which he did wait for 50 years. so obviously he is going to have a different take on the situation than those of us who were married earlier and whose spouses are supportive of our efforts with Mom. It is easy for him to see me, in the superior financial position I am, in a twisted way - in fact, it’s human. But obviously these ideas have been simmering for some time. I know my brother - he once confided in me about my sis and then exploded on her with exactly what he had said to me, including the “you’ve always got what you wanted”. My sis has not, btw, and what she has gotten she has worked very hard to get. And she has also taken the unwanted jobs to do what she had to do.

Now, finally, the question: I forgive him and his wife, but I don’t really want to be around him or have communications with him. Even if he does get around to apologising, it will really be for blurting out what he was really thinking, not for somehow remembering me just sliding up the golden stairway to success rather than working for it and doing the things he refused to do. In other words, he resents me and does not like me. I don’t like him right now. I love him and pray for him, but just don’t want to be around someone who does not like me. Is this wrong? Can I forgive someone and still avoid him because he has revealed his contempt for me?

Also, there is my mom. He has already upset her by making these suggestions to her - she already is sensitive about “being a burden” (which she is not) and I’ve told him how she has opened up to me about it in the past and said that she wished she were dead rather than “be a burden” and cried for a half hour at time. He knows this, and chose to confront her with these issues anyway. We think that he might be heading for not paying at all, because 3 of us siblings have voted to leave things as they are while he is trying to dictate my mom’s lifestyle to her. He has insulted her by calling her extravagant because she has milk delivered to her door. She is very frugal, in fact. Since he is outvoted, we think he is going to pull away and leave us with the tab. Thank God right now we can pick it up. So there is everything.

Please help me out. Thank you.

In Christ