Forgiveness FAQ

[Jerry-Jet]

Tell me something: the simplest most ignorant people in the world can forgive.

Nobody has to discuss it with them.

It doesn’t take a surgeon.

It does take someone who is able to say that they don’t know.

No apology should ever be offered for that.

No forgiveness is needed.

 

[dessert]

Q. What conditions must someone meet before i should forgive her?

I am having trouble forgiving some people

They have told lies about me for years, lieing to them is like milk is to cereal for breakfast everyday. What should I do?
Dessert

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

If it’s something I am capable of doing, probably. What’s up?

If you have a dictionary handy, will you open it up to the word forgive and tell me what definitions you see?

 

[clmowry]

If you have a dictionary handy, will you open it up to the word forgive and tell me what definitions you see?

I think you need a “theological” dictionary, most likely webster will not suffice.

You need a definition for “Forgive” by God.
“Forgive” your neighbor. “Forgive” you enemy. “Forgive” in the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

I think you will find that the definition / requirements change depending on who’s doing the forgiving, who’s being forgiven and the nature of the offense.

There’s no one size fits all formula here and it seems to me that you are looking for a single way to forgive with a single set of rules.

Chuck

PS: Here’s the Dictionary.com definition. I think there is quite a difference between 3 and 4. Don’t you?

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source
for·give http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/premium.gif http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngcache.lexico.com/g/d/speaker.gif /fərˈgɪv/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciationfer-giv] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation *verb, ***-gave, -giv·en, -giv·ing. ***–verb (used with object) *1.to grant pardon for or remission of (an offense, debt, etc.); absolve. 2.to give up all claim on account of; remit (a debt, obligation, etc.). 3.to grant pardon to (a person). 4.to cease to feel resentment against: *to forgive one’s enemies. *5.to cancel an indebtedness or liability of: *to forgive the interest owed on a loan. **–verb (used without object) *6.to pardon an offense or an offender.
[Origin: bef. 900; http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=for-”]for- + give; r. ME foryiven, OE forgiefanhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.png]

—Related forms **for·giv·a·ble, ***adjective *
**for·giv·er, ***noun *

—Synonyms 1.** See excuse. 3**.** absolve, acquit.

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

I am having trouble forgiving some people

They have told lies about me for years, lieing to them is like milk is to cereal for breakfast everyday. What should I do?
Dessert

Dessert:

This will be hard, but the first step is to pray. Jesus said, “Pray for those who persecute you and do good to those who spitefully use you.” (If you want to read it for yourself, check out Matthew, chapters 5 - 7.) Pray also for yourself that the Holy Spirit will give you the love you don’t have for them.

This will be even harder, but the second step is to show them mercy. Mercy is an unconditional kind of love. It means being lenient, not holding a grudge, not taking revenge, and being ready to forgive them. If you have trouble with this one, keep praying, and keep in mind that God our Savior “saved us, not because of the righteous things we had done, but because of His mercy” (Titus 3:5).

The third step is harder still, for it is to confront them for their sins. Jesus said

“If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.”

(Matthew 18)
However, be careful that when you speak the truth about the persons’ sins, you speak the truth in love, with gentleness and respect. Keep in mind that they might get angry, but later, after they leave you, the Holy Spirit might cause the truth to sink in.

The fifth step is perhaps the hardest of them all. It is to forgive them. My dictionary tells me that to forgive means to pardon the person and absolve him from all consequences for his sins. You will treat the people as if they had never lied about you at all. This ain’t easy and is perhaps impossible, but as Jesus said, “With [the help of] God all things are [good] possible.” My opinion is that before i should pardon those who do wrong to me i should confront them with their sins (step four) and see if they admit they were wrong and promise to make a change (which is what it means to repent). For Jesus said

“So watch yourselves. If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, ‘I repent,’ forgive him.”

(Luke 17)
If the person sincerely repents, that really leaves you no option but to pardon and exonerate the person for his sins. So you should be careful to judge, by the person’s words and actions, that he has really made a change before you trust him not to lie about you again.

Please keep in mind that there is disagreement among us here at the forum as to whether one should require a person meet any conditions before you pardon him. The difference, i think, is over what the word forgive means, and not over whether someone should repent before you restore your relationship with him and trust him again.

 

[YinYangMom]

If you have a dictionary handy, will you open it up to the word forgive and tell me what definitions you see?

Mirriam:

• to give up resentment of or claim to requital for
• to grant relief from payment of
• to cease to feel resentment against an offendor
  They synonomous cross reference word is : PARDON
  A synonomous cross-reference indicates that a definition at the entry cross-refferred to can be substituted as a definition for the entry or the sense or subsense in which the cross-reference appears.

But right before you used the term pardon you defined it literally as the transitive verb, not the noun.

The noun definitions of PARDON are:

• Indulgence
• the excusing of an offense without exacting a penalty
• a release from the legal penalties of an offense
• an official warrant of remission of penalty
• excuse or forgiveness for a fault, offense or discourtesy (I beg your ~)
  The **transitive verb **definitions of PARDON are:
• to absolve from the consequences of a fault or crime
• to allow (an offense) to pass without punishment
• to relieve of a penalty imporpoerly assessed

 

[YinYangMom]

My opinion is that before i should pardon those who do wrong to me i should confront them with their sins (step four) and see if they admit they were wrong and promise to make a change (which is what it means to repent). For Jesus said

“So watch yourselves. If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, ‘I repent,’ forgive him.” (Luke 17)If the person sincerely repents, that really leaves you no option but to pardon and exonerate the person for his sins. So you should be careful to judge, by the person’s words and actions, that he has really made a change before you trust him not to lie about you again.

Please keep in mind that there is disagreement among us here at the forum as to whether one should require a person meet any conditions before you pardon him. The difference, i think, is over what the word forgive means, and not over whether someone should repent before you restore your relationship with him and trust him again.

Nicely put, Soc.
You left out the last option, however.
Yes, IF the person repents to her, Dessert is obliged to forgive them.
But if the person refuses to acknowledge the offense and does not apologize, Dessert can still choose to forgive them.
It is her gift to determine whether or not to give to them in Jesus’ name, of course, and with God’s grace.

As for the difference in our opinions in this thread, it’s more about what the word ‘forgive’ means according to scripture and the teaching of the Church (moral) and an english dictionary (secular).

As she prays for others to realize the harm they are inflicting upon her, she should also pray that the Lord helps her not take the offenses to heart, thus hardening it against them and Him.

As for restoring the relationship, that is not a requirement at all, not even scripturally.
Dessert does not have an obligation to restore or maintain any friendship with people who disrespect or harm her.
Her only obligation is to not harbor grudges against any of God’s people (you call this mercy) and to treat them with love and kindness at all times.

Relationships require trust.
She is not obliged to trust people who are dishonorable.

 

[clmowry]

Perhaps this might help, A portion from a Homily of Chrysostom on Ephesians:

newadvent.org/fathers/230117.htm

"And be ye kind one to another, tender hearted, forgiving each other, even as God also in Christ forgave you. Be therefore imitators of God, as beloved children; and walk in love, even as Christ also loved you, and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for an odor of a sweet smell."

The events which are past have greater force than those which are yet to come, and appear to be both more wonderful and more convincing. And hence accordingly Paul founds his exhortation upon the things which have already been done for us, inasmuch as they, on Christ’s account, have a greater force. For to say, “Forgive, and you shall be forgiven” (Matt. vi. 14.), and “if you forgive not, you shall in nowise be forgiven” (Matt. vi. 15.),—this addressed to men of understanding, and men who believe in the things to come, is of great weight; but Paul appeals to the conscience not by these arguments only, but also by things already done for us. In the former way we may escape punishment, whereas in this latter we may have our share of some positive good. Thou imitatest Christ. This alone is enough to recommend virtue, that it is “to imitate God.” This is a higher principle than the other, “for He makes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the just and the unjust.” (Matt. v. 45.) Because he does not merely say that we are “imitating God,” but that we do so in those things wherein we receive ourselves such benefits. He would have us cherish the tender heart of fathers towards each other. For by heart, here, is meant lovingkindness and compassion. For inasmuch as it cannot be that, being men, we shall avoid either giving pain or suffering it, he does the next thing, he devises a remedy,—that we should forgive one another. And yet there is no comparison. For if thou indeed should at this moment forgive any one, he will forgive you again in return; whereas to God you have neither given nor forgiven anything. And thou indeed art forgiving a fellow-servant; whereas God is forgiving a servant, and an enemy, and one that hates Him.
“Even as God,” says he, “also in Christ forgave you.”
And this, moreover, contains a high allusion. Not simply, he would say, has He forgiven us, and at no risk or cost, but at the sacrifice of His Son; for that He might forgive you, He sacrificed the Son; whereas thou, oftentimes, even when you see pardon to be both without risk and without cost, yet dost not grant it.
“Be therefore imitators of God as beloved children; and walk in love, even as Christ also loved you, and gave Himself up for us an offering and sacrifice to God for an odor of a sweet smell.”
That you may not then think it an act of necessity, hear how He says, that “He gave Himself up.”…

 

[Philthy]

Yes, i see what you mean, Phil. I should love my enemies. The question is how should i love my enemies? Christ tells you and me:“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you… .”
But notice that He never says, “Forgive your enemies who do not repent.”

Soc -
In no way does Christ limit the love of enemy as being different from the love of neighbor. You keep attempting to force that into the discussion. There is no distinction made by Christ.
Soc:

There are many ways to love besides forgiving.

This would be relevent if Christ specifically excluded forgiveness as part of loving an enemy - but he chose not to - and your point becomes irrelevent to the discussion. He did not limit the love of enemy to all actions other than forgiveness.
Soc:

The only way i cannot love a person who has committed no sin against me or those i love is to keep no record of wrongs. For the one who has done nothing wrong has not given me any wrongs i might hold against him.

Again, not that it is relevent, but just for the record, your analysis is flawed here. It would be very easy to keep a record of wrongs against those who have not sinned against me personally. The Pharisees did it, I have done it. Remember the Pharisee who “kept the record of wrongs” of the adulterous woman who washed Christ’s feet? There was no personal wrong done to the Pharisee, but still the woman was judged by him. The motive is pride. Your contention, then, that “The only way i cannot love a person who has comitted no sin against me those i love is to keep no record of wrongs” is erroneous. Anyhow…
Soc:

The only kind of love from St. Paul’s list that is left , is the love that “keeps no record of wrongs”. This must be an important part of the essence of what it means to forgive.

This is not a conclusion of necessity. Paul does not claim to make an exhaustive and complete discourse on all aspects of love and forgiveness. Only if he had made a claim that all the truths of love and forgiveness are contained in his discourse could you then make such a conclusion validly. He does not make such a claim, and your conclusion - which may be true or may be false - is unjustified from the actual text.
Soc:
Tell me, Phil, what do you think it means to keep no record of wrongs? Would you agree that it means to personally pardon a person for the wrongs he has committed against you?

As I demonstrated above, it can mean that, but it does not necessarily mean that.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

Forgiveness: what does Jesus command: Just do It!

 

[JaneFrances]

Why, yes they are new. . . My new question, dear Jane, is this: In this example, how does President Bush’s showing clemency differ from the other option of giving a pardon?

Clemency is a type of pardon. Both clemency and pardon are defined as acts of forgiveness, according to this dictionary source: www.dictionary.com

Clemency, in the particular case of Scooter, is a partial pardon, retaining certain elements of the initial condemnation, while releasing him from other elements. It is a legal term. Not necessarily a Biblical one, although, there are certain Biblical examples which I think would apply. One of those is from Second Book of Samuel. Here’s an exerpt:

16Then (A)Shimei the son of Gera, the Benjamite who was from Bahurim, hurried and came down with the men of Judah to meet King David.
17There were a thousand men of Benjamin with him, with (B)Ziba the servant of the house of Saul, and his fifteen sons and his twenty servants with him; and they rushed to the Jordan before the king.
18Then they kept crossing the ford to bring over the king’s household, and to do what was good in his sight. And Shimei the son of Gera fell down before the king as he was about to cross the Jordan.
19So he said to the king, “(C)Let not my lord consider me guilty, nor remember what your servant did wrong on the day when my lord the king came out from Jerusalem, so that the king would take it to heart.
20"For your servant knows that I have sinned; therefore behold, I have come today, (D)the first of all the house of Joseph to go down to meet my lord the king.”
21But Abishai the son of Zeruiah said, “(E)Should not Shimei be put to death for this, (F)because he cursed the LORD’S anointed?”
22David then said, “(G)What have I to do with you, O sons of Zeruiah, that you should this day be an adversary to me? (H)Should any man be put to death in Israel today? For do I not know that I am king over Israel today?”
23The king said to Shimei, “(I)You shall not die.” Thus the king swore to him.

It is important to note, however, that your lines of demarcation regarding judgment, clemency, and pardon are not as defined as you would want them to be.
Clemency and pardon both require judgment.
I’m really not sure what your point is? Is this just for fun? Or does this pertain to the issue of whether or not you are obligated to withhold forgiveness from an unrepentant sinner who is culpable?

 

[DrPiano]

(on Mark, 1 of 2)

My good doctor,

I will ask you one question. Answer me, and then i will comment on Mark, chapter 11: As you mentioned, Jesus said, “Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.” Does He give you and me whatever we ask for in prayer, or only what we ask for that He wants us to have?

Soc,
Sorry I have taken so long to get back to you. My reason was that I wanted to sincerely and earnestly seek an answer in prayer and study to your question before I wrote again. (I even edited this after some new insight while I was meditating on the following passages at Perpetual Adoration tonight). Here is the conclusion I have come to, and the reasons why I have come to them.

What I have done is to look for parallel passages: other places where Jesus tells his disciples to ask for something and it will be given them. I have found them in Matthew 7:7-12, Matthew 18:19-20, Matthew 21:21-22, Mark 11:22-24, Luke 11:5-13, John 14:9-21, John 15:5-8, James 1:5-8, James 4:1-3, 1 John 5:14-15. Most of these have a similar theme, one that I believe is best explained in John 15:5-8, in the “I am the Vine” passage.

5"I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you. 8This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

Here, in similar language, I think Jesus is promising his disciples that if their minds and hearts are conformed to his (If you remain in me and my words remain in you), when they ask in his name, for the things which he desires - the things that Jesus already wants to do - then it will be given them. I think you can also see this in Jesus’ prayer in Gethsemane - the idea of in prayer, conforming your will to God’s. If your will is not conformed to His (if we are asking for something that he does not want us to have), God is much less likely to give that thing to you. I’d like to point out that in several of these other Gospel passages (Matthew 7, Luke 11) Jesus talks about how the Father is happy to give “good gifts to those who ask him!” (note, in Luke, it specifically points out that this “good” gift is the Holy Spirit).

I think this reading of these passages is supported in James 4:1-3:

1What causes fights and quarrels among you? Don’t they come from your desires that battle within you? 2You want something but don’t get it. You kill and covet, but you cannot have what you want. You quarrel and fight. You do not have, because you do not ask God. 3When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures.

and 1 John 5:14-15

14This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. 15And if we know that he hears us—whatever we ask—we know that we have what we asked of him.

(to be continued)

 

[DrPiano]

(on Mark, part 2 of 2)

That being said, I do not see the same parallels for the next sentence (in the Mark 11 passage) on forgiveness. The passages that you love to quote (“if your brother repents, forgive him” and “Father, forgive them for they know not what they do”) are NOT parallels (in structure or content) to “And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.” (Mark 11:25). In fact, I think the closest parallels to this are “Forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin against us” and “Forgive as the Lord forgave you” - in fact, this passage may even shed some light on the word “as” that we previously found so tricky in those other passages. Because here, the word used is “so.” “Forgive so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.” To me, this says 2 things. One is that God is waiting to forgive our sins (thus the use of “may”) once certain conditions are met. The other is that one of the conditions we (as followers or disciples of Christ) must meet to receive forgiveness from God is that we forgive anyone that we hold anything against. Another thing I noticed is that perhaps, our forgiveness of others is one of the conditions that must be met for our Father to answer our prayers. OR perhaps forgiveness is one of those requests that the Father will answer. Perhaps when we ask God to forgive others he will honor that request. We know this is true of priests - when a priest forgives in persona Christi, that person is forgiven by God (“whatever you bind in heaven…”). I don’t think that this is always true, because as non-ordained humans we don’t act in persona Christi, however perhaps when we ask God to forgive others, he might honor that request, at least sometimes.

As a sidenote:
I noticed something at Adoration tonight in thinking about the fact that several of these passages about asking are intertwined with passages about either judging (Matthew 7) or forgiveness (Mark 11, Luke 11). So as I was thinking about these passages as a whole, I thought of several things. First - perhaps an unforgiving spirit, or unforgiveness, keeps us apart from God by keeping God from forgiving us. Perhaps it keeps us from “remaining in Him” (John 15) - and therefore, perhaps it keeps Him from answering our prayers? Just thoughts really… (sidenote over)

However - I do not see in this verse the idea of forgiving the same way that God forgives - ie, using the same conditions that God expects us to meet in determining whether we will forgive others. I think the reason for this has been hashed out by others but includes our imperfect abilities compared to God’s perfect abilities. God can see our hearts and minds - he knows if we’ve forgiven others AND he knows if we’ve repented of our sins. He knows whether our confession is sincere and our desire to change is sincere even if we mess up and sin again. We can’t know this (either of those conditions) about other people. We also can’t know how ignorant a person is of their sin and what other factors may have contributed.

I’ll address definitions (and more on the difference between God’s forgiveness and our forgiveness) in my next post…

 

[DrPiano]

(Definitions, part 1 of 2)

Then i’m afraid you are correct. We will never come to an agreement about how to show mercy and how to forgive if we mean completely different things when we say the word mercy and the word forgive.

I’m using the dictionary to determine the meaning of the words mercy and forgive. To what authority are you appealing to define these words, doctor?

mercynoun

1. 
   *]Leniency and compassion shown toward offenders by a person or agency charged with administering justice; “he threw himself on the mercy of the court” [syn: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/clemency”]clemency

1. 
   ]
   *]A disposition to be kind and forgiving; “in those days a wife had to depend on the mercifulness of her husband” [syn: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/mercifulness”]mercifulness] [ant: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/mercilessness”]mercilessness]
   *]The feeling that motivates compassion [syn: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/mercifulness”]mercifulness]
   *]Something for which to be thankful; “it was a mercy we got out alive”
   *]Alleviation of distress; showing great kindness toward the distressed; “distributing food and clothing to the flood victims was an act of mercy”
   
   WordNet® 3.0, © 2006 by Princeton University.======================================
   
   for·give http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/premium.gif cache.lexico.com/g/d/speaker.gif (fər-gĭv’, fôr-) Pronunciation Key v. for·gave (-gāv’), for·giv·en (-gĭv’ən), for·giv·ing, for·gives v. tr.
   1. 
      *]To excuse for a fault or an offense; pardon.
      *]To renounce anger or resentment against.
      *]To absolve from payment of (a debt, for example).
      
      American Heritage Dictionary Personally, i’m trying to use as broad a definition as possible for these words, doctor. For example, i’m assuming that to forgive means not just to renounce anger. Rather, it means to renounce anger AND pardon AND absolve from payment.
      
      While I applaud you for using the dictionary, I have to remind you that you are using it somewhat incorrectly. That is to say that in any given usage, only one definition of a word truly applies. Thus forgiveness of someone convicted of a crime by the President is NOT the same as forgiveness by a loan officer of a debt which is NOT the same as forgiveness by the victim of a crime by the perpetrator. Also similarly, forgiveness by God is not the same as forgiveness by a human. They’re all correct aspects and usages of the word forgiveness but they’re not all interchangable. And you can’t apply all of them to the same usage of the word.
      
      I’ll give another example of what I mean and then come back to the word forgiveness. Take the example of the word “run”. I’ll only look at verb forms for simplicity. The full definition (I think) can be found here but I’ll post a few examples:
      1. to go faster than a walk; specifically : to go steadily by springing steps so that both feet leave the ground for an instant in each step
      2. move freely at will
      3. to sail before the wind in distinction from reaching or sailing close-hauled
      4. resort
      5. to go back and forth
      6. function, operate
      7. to continue in force, operation, or production
      8. to have a specified duration, extent, or length <the manuscript runs nearly 500 pages>
      9. spread, dissolve
      As you can see, even with only 9 of the many definitions of the word “run,” there are many that aren’t interchangeable. If I use one sense of the word, I can’t be using another sense of the same word. For example:
      “My sailboat ran across the water” CANNOT mean “My sailboat resorted across the water” nor can it mean “My sailboat had a specified length across the water” and although it might almost work, trying to substitute the word “operate” for run would cause you to loose the majority of the intended meaning: “My sailboat operated across the water.”

 

[DrPiano]

(Definitions, part 2 of 2)

I, and others here, believe that substituting “pardon” for what humans do when they forgive someone who has sinned, trespassed, or transgressed against them is using the wrong definition. We cannot take away another person’s guilt. Nor would it be loving. Consider a parent whose child was running in the house and knocked over a vase. If the child came to you crying saying “I’m sorry mommy/daddy - I broke your vase,” what would be more loving? To a) entirely pardon the child and clean up the vase yourself and never say anything about it again, b) to make the child clean it up himself and bring it up every time the child did something wrong or c) hug the child, tell him that you forgive him, but that he needs to do something to make it right - in this case, cleaning up the pieces? Which action will be most likely to help the child do better in the future? I would argue that allowing the child to suffer some consequence of poor actions will help him think more carefully about running in the house in the future. You have still forgiven the child (prior to his cleaning up the pieces) but you have not pardoned it.

Similarly I think God lets us suffer the natural temporal consequences of our actions. For example, if Joan is caught stealing, and she confesses to a priest while being held prior to her trial and is absolved, God may still choose to allow her to stand trial and be found guilty and serve a prison sentence. His forgiveness of eternal penalties and Jesus’ blood covering her guilt before God does not necessarily entirely pardon her of all temporal consequences of her actions. Just as a loving parent who has forgiven their child may require that the child suffer some temporal consequence to teach the child more permanently (its called discipline), God may do the same to us (Hebrews 12).

Anyway, as an added bonus, I’ll share with you a prayer I wrote today in Adoration (forgive the choppiness - I wrote it concerning someone in particular but have removed any references to make it as generic and non-identifying as possible):
Jesus - I see that you have forgiven me so much. I also see that I am still struggling to forgive those who have hurt me deeply, particularly ___. Please help me to forgive freely and generously. Help me to let go of my anger and need for vengeance. Help me to put justice in your hands. Help me to have faith in your justice and be a conduit for your mercy. Help me to love him/her the way you love him/her and die to myself. May your peace fill my heart and life. And if the opportunity presents itself for me to confront him/her about the harms that he/she has done, help me confront her only in love - not in anger, malice, or a desire for revenge. Above all, be my surgeon - take the log out of my own eye before I try to operate on anyone else. As you are perfect, confront me in my sin, bring me to full repentance, and help me forgive. In Jesus name, Amen.

 

[JaneFrances]

Since we are talking about new stuff, I had a couple of new thoughts on the topic of forgiveness.

But first, to recap, Socrates4Jesus believes that because Jesus never said “Forgive everyone, even those who are not repentant and those are are culpable” that we are obliged to withhold forgiveness until one of those two conditions is met.

In time, Socrates4Jesus has altered his position somewhat to consider that, perhaps, it is possible to forgive another person simply as an act of Love. He, by his own admission, does not embrace this as an actuality, but rather as a possibility.

Building on possibility, I offer this. . .

Our Savior, Jesus Christ, tells us:

Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. John 15:13

So, first, let’s get one word of the way. . .Who are our “friends”?

Socrates4Jesus likes his dictionary quite alot, so we’ll appeal to dictionary.com first. . .

friend (frěnd) Pronunciation Key
n.
A person whom one knows, likes, and trusts.
A person whom one knows; an acquaintance.
A person with whom one is allied in a struggle or cause; a comrade.
One who supports, sympathizes with, or patronizes a group, cause, or movement: friends of the clean air movement.
Friend A member of the Society of Friends; a Quaker.

Obviously, not all our friends are Quakers, so we’ll look at the first four offerings. We know our friends, we like them, we generally trust them (though, not always, to be sure). We sometimes call people with whom we are not particularly close “friends” simply because we are acquainted with them. Similarly, we tend to be on the “same team” with our friends–we’re allies. Our friend support us, sympathize with us or simply align themselves with us under a particular cause. Our English usage of the word “friend” is varied to mean those close to us to those with whom we are associated.

Now, what does Scripture say? Who was Jesus friends with?

We read in Matthew 11:19 and Luke 7:34, for instance, that Jesus was “friend of publicans and sinners.” Sinners are those who offend God, right? Jesus is God, right? So, Jesus is friends with those who offend HIM?!? That’s HUGE! In Biblical language and usage, it seems, that one can be considered a friend even when they offend you and sin against you.

I think the original Greek offers us a good insight here. . .While English dictionaries are good first resources, sometimes, the original language and its meaning help.

The word used for “friend” in John 15:13 is transliterated to mean the Greek word “philos.” This describes less about the person himself and more about how you relate to this person. It is more of a descriptive term which means “friend, to be friendly to one, wish him well.” SO, it is in this way that the Lord of all Creation could associate with sinners and call them His friends. He was friendly to them. He loved them not because they were trustworthy, kind, or loving to him, but because he wanted the best for them.

How do we do this? How we love the greatest?

Christ instructs us that the greatest love is sacrificial love. The greatest love gives beyond our human inclinations allow. The greatest love requires suffering and self-denial.

So, this leads into the topic of forgiveness. . .as an act of love.

How is withholding forgiveness, though permissable by law, sacrificial? How does withholding forgiveness from an unrepentant sinner go beyond our human inclinations? How is refusing to forgive an act of self-denial and personal suffering in favor of another person?

It seems, Socrates4Jesus, that if we take our Lord’s words to heart, that forgiveness, espeically when it is not required. . .especially when we are not inclined to do so. . .especially when it is hard and even unthinkable. . .especially when the other person doesn’t deserve it, want it, or qualify for it. . .is, indeed, the kind of Love which dies to self. It may, perhaps, be one of our very best examples of the greatest Love.

If, in fact, the parable of the moneylender is true and Jesus’ message is clear, one can be led to love through a selfless act of forgiveness. It does not always, in human terms, depend on the qualifications of the sinner. Instead, forgiveness can be a initiating grace by which a sinner is moved to repentance, transformation and love.

 

[DrPiano]

I just want to take some time to thank everyone involved in this discussion (and all who were involved before I got involved, and all who might become involved later). I’ve been having my own issues with forgiveness of someone lately and in talking through all of this with you all, I’ve come a lot closer to being able to put what we’ve been talking about into practice. Thank you for being conduits of Christ for me.

 

[dessert]

Dessert:

This will be hard, but the first step is to pray. Jesus said, “Pray for those who persecute you and do good to those who spitefully use you.” (If you want to read it for yourself, check out Matthew, chapters 5 - 7.) Pray also for yourself that the Holy Spirit will give you the love you don’t have for them.

This will be even harder, but the second step is to show them mercy. Mercy is an unconditional kind of love. It means being lenient, not holding a grudge, not taking revenge, and being ready to forgive them. If you have trouble with this one, keep praying, and keep in mind that God our Savior “saved us, not because of the righteous things we had done, but because of His mercy” (Titus 3:5).

The third step is harder still, for it is to confront them for their sins. Jesus said

“If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.”

(Matthew 18)
However, be careful that when you speak the truth about the persons’ sins, you speak the truth in love, with gentleness and respect. Keep in mind that they might get angry, but later, after they leave you, the Holy Spirit might cause the truth to sink in.

The fifth step is perhaps the hardest of them all. It is to forgive them. My dictionary tells me that to forgive means to pardon the person and absolve him from all consequences for his sins. You will treat the people as if they had never lied about you at all. This ain’t easy and is perhaps impossible, but as Jesus said, “With [the help of] God all things are [good] possible.” My opinion is that before i should pardon those who do wrong to me i should confront them with their sins (step four) and see if they admit they were wrong and promise to make a change (which is what it means to repent). For Jesus said

“So watch yourselves. If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, ‘I repent,’ forgive him.”

(Luke 17)
If the person sincerely repents, that really leaves you no option but to pardon and exonerate the person for his sins. So you should be careful to judge, by the person’s words and actions, that he has really made a change before you trust him not to lie about you again.

Please keep in mind that there is disagreement among us here at the forum as to whether one should require a person meet any conditions before you pardon him. The difference, i think, is over what the word forgive means, and not over whether someone should repent before you restore your relationship with him and trust him again.

Thank you for your response it made me cry because there is the truth. Forgiveness can bring one closer or denial seperate one.
I suppose they won’t change overnight or not at all. I think I’m in the fourth step with these relationships. I’m afraid many are going to take sides. I will keep praying and forgiving, yes I have lost some of the trusting part, maybe I never had it with so much lieing going on. Confrontation or just plain honest discussion without losing emotional control would be good. It is not anything that needs to be suing over. These people are starting to ask questions a bit, but not really repenting. They are not saying oh I think I got my facts mixed up. They are asking questions. Dessert

 

[DrPiano]

I am having trouble forgiving some people

They have told lies about me for years, lieing to them is like milk is to cereal for breakfast everyday. What should I do?
Dessert

Dessert,

I empathize with you. I, too, am having difficulty forgiving some people in my life. There has been a person in my life who has hurt both myself and my family very deeply with lies, manipulations, and deceptions. For me, its a daily process. Every day I have to let go of all the frustrations and anger and bitterness and desire for revenge that I have against this person. Each day I pray for the strength to trust God to carry out Justice the way he sees fit. Each day I ask him to help me let go of all that I need to let go of.

I shared a prayer with Socrates and I’d like to share severa with you - they have helped me as I pray these things. The first I found somewhere online:
Faultless Lord, enduring death for me, You have consummated the debt of my sins; Your sacrifice of forgiveness was absolute! Grant me the strength to also forgive others, to excuse their transgressions against me. So I may truly reflect his spiritual fruit, obliterate any persistent feelings of malice. Let each trespass end as a closing chapter, my continuing on the road of righteousness. Forgive my sins as I aspire to forgive others. You are truly archetypal of forgiveness. You are a most forgiving Lord!

Oh my Jesus, forgive us our sins. Save us from the fires of hell. Lead all souls to Heaven, specially those in most need of your mercy. (this is the prayer at the end of each decade of the rosary. When I pray it, I try to lovingly meditate on the “especially those in most need of your mercy” part. I remember both myself and the person who has hurt me in that and pray that God will both forgive her and me.)

This one I wrote today (it seemed to help at the time):
Jesus - I see that you have forgiven me so much. I also see that I am still struggling to forgive those who have hurt me deeply, particularly ___. Please help me to forgive freely and generously. Help me to let go of my anger and need for vengeance. Help me to put justice in your hands. Help me to have faith in your justice and be a conduit for your mercy. Help me to love him/her the way you love him/her and die to myself. May your peace fill my heart and life. And if the opportunity presents itself for me to confront him/her about the harms that he/she has done, help me confront her only in love - not in anger, malice, or a desire for revenge. Above all, be my surgeon - take the log out of my own eye before I try to operate on anyone else. As you are perfect, confront me in my sin, bring me to full repentance, and help me forgive. In Jesus name, Amen.

I don’t know if any of this helps, but I will certainly be praying for you.

 

[dessert]

(Definitions, part 2 of 2)

I, and others here, believe that substituting “pardon” for what humans do when they forgive someone who has sinned, trespassed, or transgressed against them is using the wrong definition. We cannot take away another person’s guilt. Nor would it be loving. Consider a parent whose child was running in the house and knocked over a vase. If the child came to you crying saying “I’m sorry mommy/daddy - I broke your vase,” what would be more loving? To a) entirely pardon the child and clean up the vase yourself and never say anything about it again, b) to make the child clean it up himself and bring it up every time the child did something wrong or c) hug the child, tell him that you forgive him, but that he needs to do something to make it right - in this case, cleaning up the pieces? Which action will be most likely to help the child do better in the future? I would argue that allowing the child to suffer some consequence of poor actions will help him think more carefully about running in the house in the future. You have still forgiven the child (prior to his cleaning up the pieces) but you have not pardoned it.

Similarly I think God lets us suffer the natural temporal consequences of our actions. For example, if Joan is caught stealing, and she confesses to a priest while being held prior to her trial and is absolved, God may still choose to allow her to stand trial and be found guilty and serve a prison sentence. His forgiveness of eternal penalties and Jesus’ blood covering her guilt before God does not necessarily entirely pardon her of all temporal consequences of her actions. Just as a loving parent who has forgiven their child may require that the child suffer some temporal consequence to teach the child more permanently (its called discipline), God may do the same to us (Hebrews 12).

Anyway, as an added bonus, I’ll share with you a prayer I wrote today in Adoration (forgive the choppiness - I wrote it concerning someone in particular but have removed any references to make it as generic and non-identifying as possible):
Jesus - I see that you have forgiven me so much. I also see that I am still struggling to forgive those who have hurt me deeply, particularly ___. Please help me to forgive freely and generously. Help me to let go of my anger and need for vengeance. Help me to put justice in your hands. Help me to have faith in your justice and be a conduit for your mercy. Help me to love him/her the way you love him/her and die to myself. May your peace fill my heart and life. And if the opportunity presents itself for me to confront him/her about the harms that he/she has done, help me confront her only in love - not in anger, malice, or a desire for revenge. Above all, be my surgeon - take the log out of my own eye before I try to operate on anyone else. As you are perfect, confront me in my sin, bring me to full repentance, and help me forgive. In Jesus name, Amen.

Thank you for this prayer I may use it when I go into the confessional this saturday as I am tongue tied whenever I get in there and usually bring stuff written down. It is a nice prayer for me and the person I want to forgive. Dessert