Forgiveness FAQ

[JaneFrances]

The fifth step is perhaps the hardest of them all. It is to forgive them. My dictionary tells me that to forgive means to pardon the person and absolve him from all consequences for his sins. You will treat the people as if they had never lied about you at all.

First. . .God does not abide by dictionary terms. They are man made tools useful for communication.

Second. . .the above statement is entirely absurd. There are those repentant sinners whose sins are so awful, so unthinkable, so offensive and abusive, who can not be pardoned from “all consequences.” There are those sinners, truly sorry for their crimes, who must not be treated as if they never sinned at all.

These people, though wholly repentant, must still suffer certain temporal (perhaps even civil) consequences for their sin. For these people, the suffering endured is penitential, not removed. Forgiveness among men does not take away all consequence.

 

[dessert]

Dessert,

I empathize with you. I, too, am having difficulty forgiving some people in my life. There has been a person in my life who has hurt both myself and my family very deeply with lies, manipulations, and deceptions. For me, its a daily process. Every day I have to let go of all the frustrations and anger and bitterness and desire for revenge that I have against this person. Each day I pray for the strength to trust God to carry out Justice the way he sees fit. Each day I ask him to help me let go of all that I need to let go of.

I shared a prayer with Socrates and I’d like to share severa with you - they have helped me as I pray these things. The first I found somewhere online:
Faultless Lord, enduring death for me, You have consummated the debt of my sins; Your sacrifice of forgiveness was absolute! Grant me the strength to also forgive others, to excuse their transgressions against me. So I may truly reflect his spiritual fruit, obliterate any persistent feelings of malice. Let each trespass end as a closing chapter, my continuing on the road of righteousness. Forgive my sins as I aspire to forgive others. You are truly archetypal of forgiveness. You are a most forgiving Lord!

Oh my Jesus, forgive us our sins. Save us from the fires of hell. Lead all souls to Heaven, specially those in most need of your mercy. (this is the prayer at the end of each decade of the rosary. When I pray it, I try to lovingly meditate on the “especially those in most need of your mercy” part. I remember both myself and the person who has hurt me in that and pray that God will both forgive her and me.)

This one I wrote today (it seemed to help at the time):
Jesus - I see that you have forgiven me so much. I also see that I am still struggling to forgive those who have hurt me deeply, particularly ___. Please help me to forgive freely and generously. Help me to let go of my anger and need for vengeance. Help me to put justice in your hands. Help me to have faith in your justice and be a conduit for your mercy. Help me to love him/her the way you love him/her and die to myself. May your peace fill my heart and life. And if the opportunity presents itself for me to confront him/her about the harms that he/she has done, help me confront her only in love - not in anger, malice, or a desire for revenge. Above all, be my surgeon - take the log out of my own eye before I try to operate on anyone else. As you are perfect, confront me in my sin, bring me to full repentance, and help me forgive. In Jesus name, Amen.

I don’t know if any of this helps, but I will certainly be praying for you.

I must have been reading your prayer while you wrote this it is so different and I am crying now so I need to go pray now, thank you for your prayers Dessert

 

[DrPiano]

I must have been reading your prayer while you wrote this it is so different and I am crying now so I need to go pray now, thank you for your prayers Dessert

Dessert,

You are more than welcome. I pray that God will give his never ending grace and mercy to both of us, strengthening us to forgive.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

First. . .God does not abide by dictionary terms. They are man made tools useful for communication.

Second. . .the above statement is entirely absurd. There are those repentant sinners whose sins are so awful, so unthinkable, so offensive and abusive, who can not be pardoned from “all consequences.” There are those sinners, truly sorry for their crimes, who must not be treated as if they never sinned at all.

These people, though wholly repentant, must still suffer certain temporal (perhaps even civil) consequences for their sin. For these people, the suffering endured is penitential, not removed. Forgiveness among men does not take away all consequence.

Is it more absurd to abide by the definition of a word in a dictionary or to make up your own definition, Jane? If you are not making up your own definition for the word forgiveness, then by what definition of forgiveness from the Bible or the Catechism are you abiding? Please quote it word for word.

My dear Jane, please try to think objectively about this. Can anyone say with certainty she knows how to forgive if she does not put in words what the word forgive means? When two people disagree about something, they need a standard by which to compare their ideas. If you and i, for example, disagree about how far it is from your home to the nearest shopping mall, we should resolve our differences by using the odometer in your car. If we disagree on how hot it is today, we will consult a thermometer. If we disagree about whether i’m overweight, we will have me stand on a scale and then consult the given standard adopted by the American Medical Association on what weight constitutes obesity. If we disagree on the spelling of a word, we will consult a dictionary. If we disagree on the meaning of the word, we will likewise consult a dictionary. To say that one should not consult a dictionary to find the meaning of a word is to say that one can make up any definition he wants for every word, which is absurd.

I’m looking for a definition of the word forgive, a standard by which i can compare my actions to see if they measure up. If you have such a definition, please do not keep it any longer from me. If you do not, then please explain how you know for certain you are forgiving if you do not know what forgiveness is.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Dessert,

I empathize with you. I, too, am having difficulty forgiving some people in my life. There has been a person in my life who has hurt both myself and my family very deeply with lies, manipulations, and deceptions. For me, its a daily process. Every day I have to let go of all the frustrations and anger and bitterness and desire for revenge that I have against this person. Each day I pray for the strength to trust God to carry out Justice the way he sees fit. Each day I ask him to help me let go of all that I need to let go of.
… This one I wrote today (it seemed to help at the time):
Jesus - I see that you have forgiven me so much. I also see that I am still struggling to forgive those who have hurt me deeply, particularly ___. Please help me to forgive freely and generously. Help me to let go of my anger and need for vengeance. Help me to put justice in your hands. Help me to have faith in your justice and be a conduit for your mercy. Help me to love him/her the way you love him/her and die to myself. May your peace fill my heart and life. And if the opportunity presents itself for me to confront him/her about the harms that he/she has done, help me confront her only in love - not in anger, malice, or a desire for revenge. Above all, be my surgeon - take the log out of my own eye before I try to operate on anyone else. As you are perfect, confront me in my sin, bring me to full repentance, and help me forgive. In Jesus name, Amen.

I don’t know if any of this helps, but I will certainly be praying for you.

Well said, Doc. I’ve prayed prayers like that myself for those who have hurt me deeply, except i asked God to help me *show mercy *instead of *forgive. *I have also prayed that God would change the circumstances of the lives of those who have sinned against me so that they will want to make a change and seek forgiveness. I’ve prayed that He would also bring people in their lives to convince, by word or example, to repent and turn to God and be forgiven.

My hope is that they will receive God’s forgiveness and be reconciled at least to Him, if not to me. For if they are reconciled to Him, then even if i never see them again in time, i will embrace them and shed tears of joy in eternity. The answers to some prayers, i think, are only realized when we finally see Jesus face to face.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

I must have been reading your prayer while you wrote this it is so different and I am crying now so I need to go pray now, thank you for your prayers Dessert

Jesus, you know what it is to weep for those who sinned. You wept over the results of sin (which is death) when you stood at the graveyard near the tomb of your dear friend Lazarus. Your tears were not just for him, i think, but for all of us.

Lord, i pray that you will help desert to continue to love and pray and do good to those who have treated him/her so wrongly. Give desert the love s/he does not have, the love that is found only in being close to you. Flow streams of living water through the desert of his/her heart, not by her own might nor by her power, but by your Spirit. If you do not take this trial away, we trust you will take him/her safely through.

Be also with those who continue to sin against him/her. Work as only You can in their lives and their minds. Help them to see what You see, which is their sin in all its ugliness. Help them want to want to repent, to weep as you weep for them, and turn to you and be forgiven. If it is what you will, let desert share in the joy of forgiving them, too. O Father, may they be reconciled to him/her as well as you.

In Jesus’ precious name i pray,
let it be so.
Amen.

 

[DrPiano]

I have also prayed that God would change the circumstances of the lives of those who have sinned against me so that they will want to make a change and seek forgiveness. I’ve prayed that He would also bring people in their lives to convince, by word or example, to repent and turn to God and be forgiven.

While I can understand the motive might be pure here, I’ve found in my own life that this kind of prayer can be indicative of my own anger finding a clever disguise to get out. While I think its healthy at first to wish that the circumstances of the life of the person who has harmed me change, once you begin to show true mercy, I’m not sure that this has a place. It sounds more vindictive than loving to me…

But that is just my own experience with these prayers. I suppose it could be done lovingly. I would, however, caution you to be very very careful. Do not let a desire for revenge disguise itself as a prayer of love. Then you’re only fooling yourself.

As far as your statement here goes:

I’ve prayed prayers like that myself for those who have hurt me deeply, except i asked God to help me show mercy instead of forgive.

I think the major difference is a difference in terminology (although I suspect there is still something different between your mercy and my forgiveness.)

 

[Jerry-Jet]

There were people in concentration camps in Germany that were Jewish that were able to forgive their captors and torturers and they didn’t have Jesus helping them.

Come on now–I doubt very seriously if too many people were treated worse than they were.

If they can forgive without Christ are you going to tell me that it is hard to forgive much lessor hurts with Christ?

I don’t believe it–I don’t think being able to forgive is that impossible and I wonder if the reason some people aren’t able to frogive is that they don’t have the love of Christ in the first place.

If they did they could at least be as forgiving as some of the Jews who were concentration camp survivors.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

… I suppose it could be done lovingly. I would, however, caution you to be very very careful. Do not let a desire for revenge disguise itself as a prayer of love. Then you’re only fooling yourself.

As far as your statement here goes: I think the major difference is a difference in terminology (although I suspect there is still something different between your mercy and my forgiveness.)

Thank you, doc. Would you like to discuss what the words forgiveness and mercy actually mean? I think that if i better understand what the word forgive means i will better understand how to forgive, don’t you?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

There were people in concentration camps in Germany that were Jewish that were able to forgive their captors and torturers and they didn’t have Jesus helping them.

Come on now–I doubt very seriously if too many people were treated worse than they were.

If they can forgive without Christ are you going to tell me that it is hard to forgive much lessor hurts with Christ?

I don’t believe it–I don’t think being able to forgive is that impossible and I wonder if the reason some people aren’t able to frogive is that they don’t have the love of Christ in the first place.

If they did they could at least be as forgiving as some of the Jews who were concentration camp survivors.

JJ:

How do you know they really forgave the Nazis since you do not know what the word forgive means?

 

[DrPiano]

Thank you, doc. Would you like to discuss what the words forgiveness and mercy actually mean? I think that if i better understand what the word forgive means i will better understand how to forgive, don’t you?

Soc,

I believe you and I have already done so. I also discussed meanings in my posts last night (see the pair on definitions).

As far as your logic (previously stated several times) about forgiveness being an aspect of love… for me its like staring at a picture and knowing something is wrong with that picture but not being able to verbalize exactly what that something is. Your logical flow is wrong somewhere. Unfortunately, I can’t place my finger on what place (or places) or statement (or statements) are off. Perhaps I will think and pray on it some more.

If your interested in what I believe forgiveness and mercy are (I’ve spent a LOT of time working through a definition of forgiveness with you), please see my previous posts.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

i know what love is without choosing to define it.

what is so different about forgiveness?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

… If your interested in what I believe forgiveness and mercy are (I’ve spent a LOT of time working through a definition of forgiveness with you), please see my previous posts.

Sorry, doctor, my memory is not what it used to be. Will you please type your definition of the word forgive one more time for me? Please just fill in the blanks:

Forgiveness is __________________________________________________ .I’d really appreciate this, as it would save me much time searching through more than 600 posts. You do not have to answer, of course, if you think it is a sin for me to ask.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

i know what love is without choosing to define it.

what is so different about forgiveness?

JJ:

Let me give you an example of why it is important to not misunderstand what a word means. My family and i were and taking a trip via automobile. My youngest son kept asking, “Are we there yet?” In response, i told him we were not and that he should be patient. He kept asking, “Are we there yet?” and “How long will this take?” and “Can’t you drive any faster, Dad?”

Finally i gently said to him, “Didn’t i tell you to be patient?” and his answer was, “I am patient! I didn’t get mad, did i?”

I then had to explain to him that while he was kind and was calm, he certainly was not patient. What he thought was patience was really just kindness or calmness. He disagreed with me, so I asked him what patience was, and he said it was not getting angry when someone is taking too darn long to get there!

I then had to explain that patience is the kind of love you show your Dad or someone else by waiting for them to do what you want them to do without getting angry AND without asking them over and over to get it done. I think i told him the correct definition, for my dictionary tells me that patience is “the quality of enduring something without complaint.” My son, in this example, was not patient because he complained a lot.

Now, JJ, what do you do when someone disagrees with you about the meaning of a word. How do you settle the dispute if not by opening up a dictionary and reading how it defines the word?

 

[DrPiano]

Sorry, doctor, my memory is not what it used to be. Will you please type your definition of the word forgive one more time for me? Please just fill in the blanks:

Forgiveness is __________________________________________________ .I’d really appreciate this, as it would save me much time searching through more than 600 posts. You do not have to answer, of course, if you think it is a sin for me to ask.

No, its not a sin for me to redefine it for you - I just didn’t really want to go through and retype again what I’ve already said a million times. By the way, rather than going through the thread, I went to my own profile and clicked “show posts by…” As I only have 61 posts, and not all of them are from this thread, it was fairly easy to pick out the germane posts. I’ve quoted relevant parts below (referenced with post numbers, so you can look them up if you wish to see them in context).

Post 320

Forgiveness is letting go of your personal “right” to revenge or retribution and giving it to God, who is truly the only one who can exact it. It is human nature to want to get back at someone who has hurt you - to repay them evil for evil. Forgiveness is letting go of that and giving it to God. (see, for example, Rom 12:19-21). So Forgiveness begins with an act of the will - an inner decision…words (and thoughts) require fruit - so what is the fruit (the actions) of forgiveness? I think these start at their utmost with prayer for the other person. This can take a variety of forms but at their core ought to be to pray for their soul - that they will be reconciled to God. Ultimately forgiveness results in praying for good for the person who has hurt you. … Forgiveness is NOT reconciliation. … However, forgiveness results in the willingness to go through the process of reconciliation with the person who has hurt me if that person wishes to do so and if that person comes and repents.

Post 352

Keeping a record of wrongs is keeping a list (mentally or physically) of things that another has done to hurt you for the purposes of bringing those wrongs up later (in arguments, discussions, or other such contexts) in order to hurt that person or make him/her look bad (or some other such similar circumstance).

Post 360

forgiveness is not “acting as though he had never sinned at all.” Forgiveness is letting go of your anger, bitterness, and need/desire for revenge or vengeance, giving it over to God, and not hanging on tightly to the specific circumstances of the incident OR bringing up those specifics in a way that is designed to hurt the person who has harmed you… The italicized part is the portion of forgiveness that is not keeping a record of wrongs.

I’m using the dictionary to determine the meaning of the words mercy and forgive. To what authority are you appealing to define these words, doctor?

for·give
v. for·gave (-gāv’), for·giv·en (-gĭv’ən), for·giv·ing, for·gives v. tr.

1. 
   *]To excuse for a fault or an offense; pardon.
   *]To renounce anger or resentment against.
   *]To absolve from payment of (a debt, for example).
   
   American Heritage Dictionary

1. 
   In short, I am roughly defining forgiveness as "forgiveness is to renounce anger or resentment against. (ie - definition #2 from your above post) combined with allowing that inner reality to manifest in your life (in such actions as praying for good for that person, being willing to reconcile under appropriate conditions, etc.).

 

[dessert]

Jesus, you know what it is to weep for those who sinned. You wept over the results of sin (which is death) when you stood at the graveyard near the tomb of your dear friend Lazarus. Your tears were not just for him, i think, but for all of us.

Lord, i pray that you will help desert to continue to love and pray and do good to those who have treated him/her so wrongly. Give desert the love s/he does not have, the love that is found only in being close to you. Flow streams of living water through the desert of his/her heart, not by her own might nor by her power, but by your Spirit. If you do not take this trial away, we trust you will take him/her safely through.

Be also with those who continue to sin against him/her. Work as only You can in their lives and their minds. Help them to see what You see, which is their sin in all its ugliness. Help them want to want to repent, to weep as you weep for them, and turn to you and be forgiven. If it is what you will, let desert share in the joy of forgiving them, too. O Father, may they be reconciled to him/her as well as you.

In Jesus’ precious name i pray,
let it be so.
Amen.

Thank you for this prayer also. Yes I need to have joy in forgiving and the love restored and reconcilled compassion and mercy so I hope I can get through this next step ie; 3 and 4 .
I pray for all you have in Jesus name. Desert

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Thank you for this prayer also. Yes I need to have joy in forgiving and the love restored and reconcilled compassion and mercy so I hope I can get through this next step ie; 3 and 4 .
I pray for all you have in Jesus name. Desert

Still praying for you, desert. Don’t give up hope. God will use the paint to make you better, not bitter. Just ask Him and know that He will.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

… In short, I am roughly defining forgiveness as "forgiveness is to renounce anger or resentment against. (ie - definition #2 from your above post) combined with allowing that inner reality to manifest in your life (in such actions as praying for good for that person, being willing to reconcile under appropriate conditions, etc.).

Keep in mind that it is not my definition of forgiveness, it is the definition of the dictionary in which i found it. If you have a dictionary handy there, doc, and you turned to the word forgive, you might find similar definitions to these, which are in the dictionary sitting on the desk in front of me:

for.givev. **for.gave, for.gave, for.giv.en, for.giv.ing ***v.t.*1. To grant pardon for or remission of (something).2. To cease to blame or feel resentment against.3. To remit, as a debt; to absolve from payment.Are you saying that i cannot forgive someone by personally pardoning him for the wrongs he committed against me? Are you saying i cannot forgive someone by cancelling the debt she owes me? I do not understand how you do not see these as acts of forgiveness.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Doctor:

Perhaps if we do not use the word forgive, and just consider the definitions, it will help us come to an agreement:

1. To grant pardon for or remission of (something).2. To cease to blame or feel resentment against.3. To remit, as a debt; to absolve from payment.You and i agree, i think, that to do (2) i should never require the person to meet any conditions (such as repenting or being ignorant of her sins). That is ceasing to blame and feel resentment against someone should be done unconditionally.

Lets say (1) and (3) are not forgiveness. Would you agree, Doc that to do (1) or (3) i probably should require a person to meet some conditions, such as repentance in both words and deeds? For example, lets say someone stole my car and sold it for cash and spent it all. Lets say he later showed genuine remorse and repentance and made a sincere attempt to pay me back the full price for the car. Would you say that it might then be good for me to not call the police and even tell him to keep the money, or give it to the poor, as long as he promises to never steal another car?

Do you think this is reasonable for me to personally pardon someone or absolve him from a debt he owes me, as long as i do so conditionally?

 

[DrPiano]

Keep in mind that it is not my definition of forgiveness, it is the definition of the dictionary in which i found it. If you have a dictionary handy there, doc, and you turned to the word forgive, you might find similar definitions to these, which are in the dictionary sitting on the desk in front of me:

for.givev. **for.gave, for.gave, for.giv.en, for.giv.ing ***v.t.*1. To grant pardon for or remission of (something).2. To cease to blame or feel resentment against.3. To remit, as a debt; to absolve from payment.Are you saying that i cannot forgive someone by personally pardoning him for the wrongs he committed against me? Are you saying i cannot forgive someone by cancelling the debt she owes me? I do not understand how you do not see these as acts of forgiveness.

Socrates,
Its not that I don’t see them as adequate definitions of the term forgiveness in certain contexts. Nor do I not see these as “acts of forgiveness” in certain contexts. However, you asked me to define forgiveness and I defined it as it pertains to the current context. As you know (and as I’ve specified multiple times) - words have different, fully accurate meanings in different contexts (see my previous post on definitions - its only a few of my posts back). In the current context - of forgiving someone who sins against me - the definition I gave in my last post is the one I see as being the most accurate - as what is required of us as Christians.