Forgiveness FAQ

[mikeledes]

He must have more patience than I do.

M

I had a lot in the beginning, but it’s starting to run out.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[JaneFrances]

Two things struck me - first - the 2 Cor 2:5-11 passage may not be referring to the same man or situation as in the 1 Cor 5 passage. Is there another passage that leads you to believe it is the same man?

It is commonly understood by wide consensus among Biblical theologians (Catholic and Protestant alike) that the man accused of incest in 1 Corinthians is the same man referred to by St. Paul in 2 Corinthians 2.

And second, in the 2 Cor 2 passage it still does not say to take the man back into the fellowship of the believers. It says to forgive him and love him and give him comfort so that his sorrow is not overwhelming to him. I see that as to encourage this brother in the love of Christ. I don’t necessarily see it as allowing him (if still in sin) into the fellowship.

What do you think?

I do not understand your point. I wholly understand how one can forgive another person without being “in fellowship,” but I do not understand in practical terms how one can be comforted/encouraged/supported (these three terms can be found in 3 major translations) by a community with whom one is not “in fellowship.”

In any case, whether or not the man is physically allowed in the fellowship is not necessary to the point I was trying to make. Instead of:

Here, St. Paul, for the benefit of the offender and the edification of the community at large, instructs that this man should **now be welcomed back **after a time of chastening.

, I could just as well have said “that this man should be now forgiven and comforted/encouraged/supported. . .”

My point was that the example of St. Paul excommunicating the man in 1 Corinthians does not support Socrates4Jesus’ position that one is only required to forgive another when the offender is repentant as this is not demonstrated by the Scriptures in question.

 

[Foxfire2]

Good points JaneFrancis and thank you.
I hope I didn’t appear confrontational - as that was not my intent.
I think I’m looking at things from a different perspective is all - based on something that my extended family is currently going through. I wrote about it in another thread and would welcome yours and everyone’s comments.

 

[JaneFrances]

Good points JaneFrancis and thank you.
I hope I didn’t appear confrontational - as that was not my intent.
I think I’m looking at things from a different perspective is all - based on something that my extended family is currently going through. I wrote about it in another thread and would welcome yours and everyone’s comments.

Oh, I didn’t sense any confrontation. . .no worries.

I just didn’t (and still don’t) understand your point regarding “welcoming back” the sinner. Sorry if my tone was harsh. Believe it or not, I pray for a gentle spirit daily!!!

 

[clmowry]

Why do you give no weight in the argument to the verses that simply say to forgive (without conditions)?

Chuck

Michael:

Well, one point i’m trying to make is that sometimes you and i do not really understand Jesus the way we think we do. I might read one quote spoken by him on forgiveness and think i have it all figured out. The truth i have found, however, is that i really cannot be certain i understand Him until i listen to everything He has to say on a subject.

Take our beloved Redeemer’s words spoken as He suffered on the cross

*Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.” …**(Luke 23:34)*I might read this and say to myself, “Self, isn’t Jesus saying i should only forgive those who are ignorant of their sin, but no one else?” If i were to hold this belief, i would be making a grave mistake, for i might never forgive someone who repents. I would hope you, Michael, would gently and respectfully tell me what an unforgiving arse i would have become!

The question to ask Jesus when you and i read every command is why? "Why, Jesus, should the Father forgive those who mocked you, spit on you, beat you about the face until you were hardly recognizable, whipped your back with a cat of nine tails that ripped your flesh until it resembled quivering hamburger, nailed you to a cross, and forced you to continually rip open the wounds on your back as you pulled yourself up on the nails through your wrists just so you could exhale and take another breath? "

Jesus’ answer to the question why: “for they do not know what they are doing.” That is, the condition that these Roman executioners met was that they did not know they were doing wrong. So, the Father forgave them this one sin (though their other sins would not have been forgiven unless they repented and put their trust in the sacrificial death of Christ).

Then i read Luke 17:3-4, where Jesus says

*“So watch yourselves. **If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, ‘I repent,’ forgive him.”*and i have this kind of conversation with Christ as i think this through:

Soc. Why should i forgive my Christian brother, Jesus? Jesus. Because he repents, for i said that “if he repents, forgive him.” Soc. But didn’t you say i should forgive only those who don’t know what they are doing is wrong?Jesus. Yes, you should forgive them, but not only them. You should forgive everyone who meets the conditions for you to forgive them.Soc. You mean, if a person is ignorant of her sin, she has met the condition for me to forgive her?Jesus. Yes.Soc. And you also mean that if a person is not ignorant of her sin, yet she sincerely repents, i should forgive her?Jesus. Yes. Soc. So, forgiveness is not unconditional, it’s conditional?Jesus. Yes, it’s conditional. But if you love me, you will do what i command. And my command to you, Soc, is that you love others as much as i love you. I have a question for you, Soc.Soc. Ask me anything, Lord.Jesus. Do you love me?Soc. Honestly?Jesus. Of course!Soc. I really don’t know. I mean, i want to love you. I just don’t think i have it in me to love you by loving others as much as you love me. But i will try. Will you help me?Jesus. Of course i will! Lets start with forgiving her. Is she ignorant of her sin?Soc. No, she knows what she did is wrong. Jesus. Has she repented of her sin?Soc. She says she has, but i don’t know if i believer her. I think she might be sincere. Are you saying i should give her another chance?Jesus. How many other chances have i given you?Soc. Good point. Please pray for me.Jesus. I already have, and i will continue to do so. {PAUSE AS SOC THINKS} Soc?Soc. Yes?Jesus. I love you.Soc. I know. Father, help me love others half as much as you love me. Teach me to do so not by might, nor by power, but by your Spirit.Jesus. Amen.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

This is a very interesting case in point not only concerning forgiveness, but also authority.

Yes, as Socrates4Jesus has pointed out, St. Paul instructs, by his episcopal authority, the Corinthians to expel a certain man from their church community because of his sinful behavior. St. Paul tells the people how to discipline this certain offender.

Before we go any further, however, one must understand the nature of excommunication. From newadvent.com:

But we must not stop there. The story continues in 2 Corinthians 2: 5-11:

Here, St. Paul, for the benefit of the offender and the edification of the community at large, instructs that this man should now be welcomed back after a time of chastening. We have absolutely no indication that this offender has asked for forgiveness or that he has formally repented. Instead, St. Paul seems to be taking a merciful and preemptive measure to prevent this man from being “overwhelmed by excessive sorrow.” One may certainly presume that the man must have made some sort of effort towards amending his state, but Scriptures simply do not indicate that he has appealed to St. Paul or the Corinthians for forgiveness. Creating a doctrinal/moral position, which supposes repentence as an absolute prerequisite for forgiveness, can not be supported by this Scriptural text.

It also appears, from the text, that St. Paul’s act of forgiveness is motivated by his love for the community and his concern for them as he explains: “what I have forgiven. . .I have forgiven in the sight of Christ for your sake.” St. Paul is very clear that is not indicative of a response to repentance, but an act of charity, mercy, and communal healing.

Jane:

Good to hear from you again! Thank you for contributing to the conversation. Regarding excommunication, once excommunicated, are there any conditions that a person must meet to be welcomed back into the Roman Catholic community, or is excommunication a punishment for life without parole?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

So we should forgive only those who have repented of their sin against us? So if someone someone offends me and they fully know that what they did was wrong, I should withhold forgiveness and hold it against them? What does forgiveness mean, Soc?

God Bless,
Michael

Michael:

What i think forgiveness is and what i think about how you and i should forgive means little. What Jesus thinks forgiveness is and how you and i should forgive means everything!

Thus far, Jesus has given us two statements to help us see how we are to forgive:

“… If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him.”

(Luke 17:3)

and

“Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.”

(Luke 23:34)

I’ve asked you, and others here, several times what these two statements of our Lord, whom we should obey, teaches us about how we are to forgive. I’m asking you again, Michael. Have courage, man! Read Jesus’ words, ask Him to show you what He means, and then please tell me.

 

[JaneFrances]

Jane:

Good to hear from you again! Thank you for contributing to the conversation. Regarding excommunication, once excommunicated, are there any conditions that a person must meet to be welcomed back into the Roman Catholic community, or is excommunication a punishment for life without parole?

For a full treatment of Excommunication, please see newadvent.org/cathen/05678a.htm

You may, of course, also seek further explanation in the Catechism of the Catholic Church and the Code of Canon Law, both of which you can access online.

 

[Randy_Carson]

I think your disagreement is with Jesus, RC, and not so much with me. Didn’t He say “if he repents, forgive him”?

If he repents, then you should forgive him while he is standing there asking for your forgiveness.

If he does not repent, then you should forgive him in your heart even if you never see him again for the rest of your life.

Is this not obvious as to how we should love even those who harm us?

46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

May the Lord add His blessing to the reading of His Holy Word.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

 

[JaneFrances]

Thus far, Jesus has given us two statements to help us see how we are to forgive:

Thus far, you have provided an incomplete picture of Jesus’ teaching on forgiveness. In addition, Scripture offers these things, too:

Mark 11:25
And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.

Luke 5:19-20
19When they could not find a way to do this because of the crowd, they went up on the roof and lowered him on his mat through the tiles into the middle of the crowd, right in front of Jesus.
20When Jesus saw their faith, he said, “Friend, your sins are forgiven.”

Luke 6:37
"Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.

Colossians 3:13
Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you.

None of these quotations fall into the categories of
A) “… If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him.”
(repentance = forgiveness)

or

B) “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.”
(lack of knowledge = forgiveness).

Instead, they all represent another aspect of forgiveness as a function of Christian charity and mercy.

I’ve asked you, and others here, several times what these two statements of our Lord, whom we should obey, teaches us about how we are to forgive.

The two statements you have provided give a limited perspective of the whole topic of forgiveness.

The first statement: **"… If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him.", **simply says that if your brother repents, forgive him. It does not say what you have implied it says. It does not say “If your brother sins. . .and ONLY if he repents, forgive him.” Instead it is an appeal for one to forgive a brother who is repentant.

Regarding this statement, what is the measure and quality of the repentance required for forgiveness in your construct? Must one have perfect contrition of heart to be forgiven? Or is it possible for one to be repentant to a lesser extent (i.e., for fear of punishement, out of self-preservation, etc.)? And futher, how is the one forgiving supposed to perceive the nature of the repentance. If an offender is outwardly repentant, yet still holds the sin in his heart, is the forgiveness extended to him deemed null even if the one doing the forgiving is unaware of it?

The second statement: **“Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.”, **shows very clearly the mercy of Jesus Christ even as he hangs dying upon the Cross. Again, you have derived an exclusive doctrinal stance here which the whole context of Scripture does not support. Nowhere does Christ say, “Father, ONLY forgive them because they do not know what they are doing.”

And further, regarding the second statement, one could reasonably argue that none of us, not one, can possibly understand and have full knowledge of the consequences of our offenses against our neighbors and God. So, this statement could apply to everyone who has ever sinned against anyone. We are not God.

There is no way that we can know the full extent of our sin, thus your contention that one must be ignorant of sin in order to be forgiven could apply in some degree to everyone who has ever sinned. None of us knows the full measure of our sin.

 

[JaneFrances]

Good points JaneFrancis and thank you.
I hope I didn’t appear confrontational - as that was not my intent.
I think I’m looking at things from a different perspective is all - based on something that my extended family is currently going through. I wrote about it in another thread and would welcome yours and everyone’s comments.

Foxfire2, I wanted to follow up and let you know that I did read your other thread regarding your family predicament. Now I better understand your hesitance about accepting the passage of 2 Cor. 2 to mean “welcome back.”

Once again, I think the physical fellowship is strongly implied in this specific text, but in general it is not necessary to the issue of forgiveness.

I have no interest in derailing this thread to address your family’s issue at any length (your other thread is a perfect forum for that discussion), but suffice it to say forgiveness is absolutely possible regardless of whether or not it is prudent to extend physical fellowship to a sinner. To be sure, there are those cases in which physical fellowship would do more harm than good. I pray that your family situation is resolved according to God’s will and in His time!

 

[Foxfire2]

Thank you JaneFrancis - I truly appreciate you taking the time to do that. May God bless and keep you!

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

It seems that Socrates4Jesus, who may certainly clarify if he disagrees, contends that forgiveness is necessarily conditional. If Socrates4Jesus is correct, then forgiveness, in essence, is a debt paid to us for a work performed.

On the other hand, it seems as though many others believe that forgiveness is an unconditional act of mercy.

If the latter proves the more truthful position, then we can properly understand repentance and penance as free responses to grace.

Perhaps, is this the more accurate Scriptural portrayal of forgiveness? Christ’s Cross resulting in redemption is the source of the grace which prompts us and makes it possible for us to seek reconciliation through repentance and penance.

In truth, it is perfectly plausible in the scheme of salvation that our Lord would lovingly extend his free gift of forgiveness to all mankind and one could still refuse that grace. This is the mystery of freedom and unthinkable mercy and justice.

In the case of the Prodigal Son, for instance, would one assume that the loving Father withheld his forgiveness until the son returns and asks for it? OR, did the Father mercifully forgive his son even as he walked away with purses filled and back turned?

Let us note the sequence of events:

Quote:
The Parable of the Lost Son
11Jesus continued: "There was a man who had two sons. 12The younger one said to his father, ‘Father, give me my share of the estate.’ So he divided his property between them.
13"Not long after that, the younger son got together all he had, set off for a distant country and there squandered his wealth in wild living. 14After he had spent everything, there was a severe famine in that whole country, and he began to be in need. 15So he went and hired himself out to a citizen of that country, who sent him to his fields to feed pigs. 16He longed to fill his stomach with the pods that the pigs were eating, but no one gave him anything.

17"When he came to his senses, he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired men have food to spare, and here I am starving to death! 18I will set out and go back to my father and say to him: Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. 19I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me like one of your hired men.’ 20So he got up and went to his father.
**"But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him. **
21"The son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.[a]’

22"But the father said to his servants, 'Quick! Bring the best robe and put it on him. Put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet.

The Father’s joyful and loving reception of the Son does not indicate that he has withheld forgiveness until the Son asks for it, as he runs to him even before a word is spoken between them.

Instead, we have a picture of forgiveness awaiting repentance and reconciliation with hope and love.

NOW, to be sure, full healing and reconciliation can not be realized without repentance and penance, but we simply have no Scriptural dictate which requires forgiveness to be withheld. Instead, the Father’s heart is primed for reconciliation through his own act of forgiveness.

In the philosophical terms, the pragmatism of our Creator can never be overestimated.

Dear Jane:

The parable you mention is one that is dear to me. In many ways i’ve lived the story of the lost son. It is an excellent illustration of the Father’s love for those who repent. I think the question to answer regarding the parable is at what point does the son’s father forgive him? It’s obvious that the father in the story does forgive his son and embrace and kiss him and welcome him home. It’s also obvious that the son repented of his sin long before his dad’s embrace, for Jesus said that when he was still far from home

"… he came to his senses [and] he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired men have food to spare, and here I am starving to death! I will set out and go back to my father and say to him: Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me like one of your hired men.’ So he got up and went to his father.
(Luke 15:17-20)
The order of events was that first the son repented, then his dad forgave him. I would agree, however, that his father never stopped loving him. His son just refused to accept his father’s love.

Jane, please think about this from what you know of God’s point of view. Please, answer this question (if not for me, then for yourself):

Does God forgive everyone, even those who never repent?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Q. 6. Does God forgive everyone, even those who never repent?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Why do you give no weight in the argument to the verses that simply say to forgive (without conditions)?

Chuck

Chuck:

I will answer your question (sincerely and fully) if you will answer mine: Why do you give no weight to Jesus’ words that clearly show there are conditions one must meet to be forgiven?

“So watch yourselves. If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, ‘I repent,’ forgive him.”
(Luke 17:3-4)
Jesus used the word IF. An if - then statement is a conditional statement. I can say to my son

• If you do your chores, then i’ll give you your allowance.
• If you love your mother, then you will show it by saying and doing good things for her.
• If you are really sorry, then do your best to not continue this bad behavior.
• If you don’t think i love you even when your bad, you must be nuts!

In every statement with an if, there is a condition that must be met before the then can take place. I’m having trouble understanding how anyone could say a conditional statement is a statement without conditions.

 

[Randy_Carson]

If he repents, then you should forgive him while he is standing there asking for your forgiveness.

If he does not repent, then you should forgive him in your heart even if you never see him again for the rest of your life.

Is this not obvious as to how we should love even those who harm us?

46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

May the Lord add His blessing to the reading of His Holy Word.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

Bump, Socrates. Bump, bump, bump.

 

[JaneFrances]

Q. 6. Does God forgive everyone, even those who never repent?

The witness of Scripture is that God is merciful even to those who do not deserve mercy.

His mercy and justice are beyond our comprehension. I do not pretend to know the bounds of my Savior’s mercy.

For us, in turn, we are told to forgive. The mandate is clear: “Forgive and you will be forgiven.”

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Bump, Socrates. Bump, bump, bump.

If bump means ban me from the forum, i’d like to ask why. Do you think i should be banned because:

A. I’m mistaken in what i think might be the truth
B. I’m being unloving to you or others
C. Some other reason

Please explain, RC.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

The witness of Scripture is that God is merciful even to those who do not deserve mercy.

His mercy and justice are beyond our comprehension. I do not pretend to know the bounds of my Savior’s mercy.

For us, in turn, we are told to forgive. The mandate is clear: “Forgive and you will be forgiven.”

Thank you, Jane, for answering the question.

I agree with you that God is merciful even to those who do not deserve mercy. I would add that those who repent still do not deserve His mercy. (Maybe you disagree?) What i am trying to learn is whether those who do not want His mercy still receive His forgiveness.

I also agree that on some level the ideas of God’s judgement and forgiveness are beyond comprehension. What i’m trying to do, however, is first apprehend what the Bible says about His justice and mercy. Once i know what the Bible says, then i can begin the journey of attempting to learn why what the Bible says is true.

I agree that we should not ignore what our Merciful Savior and Equitable Judge says regarding forgiveness. You and i should try our best to apprehend, if not comprehend, what He meant by the words you quoted

Luke 6:37.“Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.”
I think what you believe is that these words mean

(L1) If you and i do not forgive, God will not forgive you and i, because God forgives only those who forgive others.
while i’m considering that His words mean

(L2) You and i should forgive, because God forgave you and i, and we forgive out of love for Him rather than out of fear of not being forgiven by Him.
If i have misrepresented (L1) as what you believe, Jane, then please forgive me and do not hold my carelessness against me. If i have not misrepresented your premise, then i should seek to understand what you are telling me by following it through to its logical conclusion, as follows.

You earlier quoted the passage to me

Colossians 3:13.Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you.
The word as means in the same way, so Jesus’ words should be understood to mean, “Forgive others in the same way the Lord forgave you.” Thus, the premise that Jesus is proposing for us to consider is

(M1) You and i should forgive the same way that God forgives us.
The logical argument then goes like this

(L1) If you and i do not forgive, God will not forgive you and i, because God forgives only those who forgive others.

(M1) You and i should forgive the same way that God forgives us.

therefore

(Conclusion 1a) You and i should forgive others only if they forgive others.

and what follows from (1a) is

(Conclusion 2a) You and i should forgive conditionally
Now, if i have misrepresented what you believe and you actually hold (L2) to be true (or some other premise), then please have mercy on me and please tell me so.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

As my user name Socrates4Jesus suggests, i try to be a follower of Jesus 1st and a follower of Socrates 2nd. Where Socrates and Jesus disagree, of course, i choose to obey Jesus rather than him. Where they agree, of course, i must obey.

Now, i’ve been asking myself why so many disagree with me about forgiveness. Socrates said something that i find answers the question in a most helpful way:

No matter what the subject, there is for those who wish to deliberate well upon it always one and the same starting point: you must know what it is you are deliberating about, or you will inevitably fail altogether.

(Plato’s Phaedrus, 237b)
The kind and gentle Philosopher then went on to explain to his friend

Most people, however, are not aware of their ignorance of a thing’s essential nature, and because they think they know all about it, they fail to secure agreement about the premises of their inquiry at its beginning, and as they proceed, they reap the predictable harvest of this oversight: they disagree with one another and even contradict themselves.
Then i think that if only i had taken the time to listened to Socrates’ words prior to starting this discussion thread, much frustration might have been avoided. For i would have followed his advice and said to all of you what he said to his friend

Now, you and I must not be guilty of this fundamental error which we condemn in others.
After reading Socrates’ advice to his friend, it dawns on me that our problem is not with our conclusions but with our primary premise. That is, our error is not with our ending, but our beginning. There is nothing wrong with any of your conclusions, as they follow from your premises. You all, for the most part, are thinking as logically (or even more so) than i am. The problem is that we are beginning with different presuppositions.

An example might help. Lets say all of you and i work at an orchard and we are having a disagreement. I say the tree that will grow from the seed in my hand will produce apples and you say it will produce oranges. The problem lies not with our conclusions but with our premises. I think i am grasping an apple seed and you think i have an orange seed in my grasp. The way to settle the disagreement is to figure out exactly whether we are talking about apples or oranges. That is, we should determine the essence or nature of the seed at hand.

The helpful application of the example to our dialog, and the answer to our frustrations (i hope), is this: Before all of you and i go any further with the conversation, we must first agree on a definition of the essential nature of forgiveness, and then, as Socrates said

… keeping our eyes upon the definition and constantly referring to it, let us further inquire …

With this in mind, i hope everyone will help me see what you all see. Tell me, please, is forgiveness love? (All that is necessary is a brief answer of “Yes” or “No” or “I’m not sure”.)