S
Socrates4Jesus
Guest
Q. 7. Is forgiveness love?
- Status
Q. 7. Is forgiveness love?
D
davidv
Guest
No.
Q. 7. Is forgiveness love?
God is Love.
Forgiveness is only one attribute of God.
S
Socrates4Jesus
Guest
S
Socrates4Jesus
Guest
David:
Are you saying that i when i forgive someone i am not loving her?
Are you saying that i when i forgive someone i am not loving her?
D
davidv
Guest
No. But, it is only one of many types of things that show love.
S
Socrates4Jesus
Guest
Yes, that makes sense.
All forgiveness is love, but not all love is forgiveness. That changes the vote:
Forgiveness is love
1
Forgiveness is not love
0
D
davidv
Guest
No. This is like calling a ācowā an āudderā.Yes, that makes sense.
All forgiveness is love, but not all love is forgiveness. That changes the vote:
Forgiveness is love
1
Forgiveness is not love
0
J
JaneFrances
Guest
This thread specifically pertains to your assertion that ONLY repentance and lack of knowledge of sin should merit forgiveness between men. That is, you and I are only required to forgive those other men who are repentant or who are ignorant.
The witness of Scripture, instead, offers a much broader perspective which prompts men to forgive the offences of other men out of Christian charity.
But the statement emboldened above brings up an important theological concept. As forgiveness, in essence, is an act of grace (especially as we receive it from God), is it possible for man to refuse grace? Can one receive the grace of God in vain?
Sacred Scripture affirms this possibility as St. Paul warns the people of Corinth:
āAs Godās fellow workers we urge you not to receive Godās grace in vain.ā (2 Corinthians 6:1)
Thus, to answer your question, those who do not want His mercy have the freedom to refuse it in the same way one may refuse any measure of grace that God offers.
This is precisely why I offered you several other passages of Scripture which do not imply the absolute conditional doctrine of forgiveness that you have offered.
As I am keenly aware at this time that no matter how clear my explanation, you will no doubt insert nuance which I do not intend, I am hesitant to explain further.
With that said, I will attempt to clarify this time for the sake of any others who may read this.
Very simply, the text quoted above says āYou and I should forgive.ā
This passage does not offer us conditions for forgiving others.
How does the Lord forgive, Socrates4Jesus?
In His Omniscience, he knows manās heart. He knows manās weakness. He knows manās sin. He knows manās mind. His forgiveness is not bound by time or subject to the frailty of our contrition. He forgives in perfect mercy and justice with perfect perspective and sovereign grace.
So, practically speaking how do I forgive as the Lord forgives? In the same way, how do I respond to Christās words:
Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. Matthew 5:48?
Once again, you have inserted an absolute condition (āonlyā) which Scripture does not hold. Instead, a more accurate conclusion is: You and should forgive others if they forgive others.
The two conditions Socrates4Jesus offers are:
āā¦ If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him.ā
(Luke 17:3)
and
āFather, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.ā
(Luke 23:34)
And while these statements are truthful witnesses to the forgiveness Christ teaches, they do not imply the exclusive meaning Socrates4Jesus seems to think they do.
ā. . .If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive himā does not say ā. . .and ONLY if he repents, forgive him.ā It simply say that if he repents, forgive him.
āFather, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing,ā in the same way, does not say āFather, forgive them, ONLY because they do not know what they are doing.ā It is simply Christās example of forgiveness even as he hangs dying on the cross.
The Scriptural mandate for us is to forgive others. Or as Christ teaches:
āForgive us our sins, for we also forgive everyone who sins against usā Luke 11:4.
J
JaneFrances
Guest
They are related, to be sure, but they are not the same. Forgiveness is a function of love as Christ explains:
Q. 7. Is forgiveness love?
Luke 7:46-48
You did not put oil on my head, but she has poured perfume on my feet. Therefore, I tell you, her many sins have been forgivenāfor she loved much. But he who has been forgiven little loves little."
Then Jesus said to her, āYour sins are forgiven.ā
God does not love because he forgives. He forgives because he loves.
M
mikeledes
Guest
Strike two! If I havenāt answered your question to your liking Soc, itās definitely not because I lack courage. Nor am I asking you for your personal opinion on forgiveness. I am asking you what you believe Jesus taught on forgiveness. What does forgiveness mean? If someone sins against us and doesnāt repent, we should hold it against him?
God Bless,
Michael
S
Socrates4Jesus
Guest
Yes, David, i agree, for St. Paul speaks of love:
Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails. ā¦ And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
(1 Corinthians 13:4-8, 13)
If i were to quote this passage to you and say, āLove is humility, for Paul tells us that āit is not proudā.ā I would hope you would correct me and say, āYes, humility is one way of expressing love, but humility alone is not what love is. Patience, kindness, and other such virtuous qualities are attributes of love.ā or i am confident you would say something similar.
Hence, i am embarrassed by my lack of clarity in asking my question.
Rather than asking, āIs forgiveness love?ā i should have asked, āIs forgiveness an attribute of love or a result of love or both or something else?ā So this is the question i will ask instead.
S
Socrates4Jesus
Guest
Q. 7a. Is forgiveness an attribute of love, or a result of love, or both, or neither?"
S
Socrates4Jesus
Guest
I did not quote your entire reply, Jane, but i did read it all and considered what you had to say. Your reply was thoughtful and thought provoking.
To clarify my position (and iām not saying it is the truth, only that it appears at the moment to me to be the truth) rather than saying repentance or a lack of culpability are the only conditions one must meet to be forgiven by God and His children, what i am suggesting is that there in fact are conditions one must meet to be forgiven. There might be other conditions one can meet to receive forgiveness from those in heaven or on earth. For further clarification (not that you do not understand this but that someone else not paying careful attention who wishes to reply might have missed this) i am not saying that both a lack of culpability and repentance are required to be forgiven. The conditions you and i might meet to be forgiven by God, for example, might be repentance of some sins, a lack of culpability for other sins, and perhaps other conditions of which i am unaware for other sins.
Iām not sure i understand what you are trying to say in your reply. Itās not that you have failed to express yourself well but that i have likely failed to comprehend. Rather than attempt to save time by trying to spell it out in some logical form (as i did) i repent of this and now believe it best to ask you questions to help me understand. I know you grow impatient with my questions, so i was trying a different method (which appears to have failed miserably as i have misrepresented your view, as i feared i would). At the risk of offending you, then, i am going to ask you questions so that i do not continue to sin against you by way of slander. So, if you have the patience for it, iād like to ask you to explain what you mean. One thing i do not understand is how you believe God forgives. So i would like to ask this question:
Does God forgive you and i our sins conditionally or unconditionally?
S
Socrates4Jesus
Guest
It appears you and David agree about the essential nature of forgiveness. You both agree it is an attribute or act of love.
Forgiveness is an attribute or act of love
2
Forgiveness is neither an attribute nor act of love
0
S
Socrates4Jesus
Guest
Michael:
I will answer your question, and i hope you will be willing to do for me what i am willing to do for you and answer mine. In fact, i am confident you will, for you have not shown yourself to be a hypocrite, instead, your words show you to be a man of integrity. If only my words would do the same kindness for me, what a happy guy i would be!
The answer is yes and no, because it depends on whether the person is culpable or not. Remember that Jesus prayed:
āFather, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.ā
(Luke 23:34)
From His words (though not His last words) spoken with His dying breaths He teaches me that the Roman executioners who were doing what they thought was right should not be judged for this one sin. For other sins for which they knew were wrong, yes they should be judged, but not for these sins. As St. Paul wrote:None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.(Luke 23:34)
(1 Corinthians 2:8)
The word for means because. In other words, the Son was asking His Father to forgive them this one sin because they were not culpable.
Jesus also teaches
āā¦ If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him.ā
(Luke 17:3)
Therefore i would say that if a person is responsible for her actions, and she knows what she is doing is wrong, and she does not care but says, āScrew you! I donāt care about you or your God! As far as iām concerned, you can both go to hell! Who do you think you are saying i should not have an affair? Youāre not the best iāve ever had! Iāll sleep with whoever i damn well please! You donāt like it? Do me a favor and divorce me! If you think divorce is wrong, then live with it!ā
Under these circumstances, forgiveness is not warranted, i would say. You, however, might disagree? Doesnāt God say
āI hate divorce,ā says the LORD God of Israel, āand I hate a manās covering himself with violence as well as with his garment,ā says the LORD Almighty. So guard yourself in your spirit, and do not break faith.
(Malachi 2:16)
If a person tries to accomplish what God hates, and feels no remorse for doing so, and does not want forgiveness from you or God, should you or God force on her what she is unwilling to receive?
S
Socrates4Jesus
Guest
Now, Michael, if you will do as you asked me to do, please answer this question:
Q. 7a. Is forgiveness an attribute of love, or a result of love, or both, or neither?"
Q. 7a. Is forgiveness an attribute of love, or a result of love, or both, or neither?"
C
clmowry
Guest
I guess I donāt āsufferā from a philosphical linguistic point of view.
Weāve been down this road already.
To say āIf someone asks for forgiveness, forgive themā is NOT the same as saying āDonāt forgive someone who does not ask for forgiveness.ā
This is why āallā of scripture (and Apostolic Tradition) must be taken into account when interpreting scriptue.
Sola Scriptua, especially when it becomes āSola-verse-or-two-aā just doesnāt work.
Even if you do want to place more faith in your linguistic skills, you need to do it in the language of the authors.
IF the original Greek (or Aramaic?) did not make it explicit that we should not forgive those that donāt repent, then you cannot draw the definitive conclusion you try to draw.
It is clear to me that the totality of scripture and Church teaching points toward unconditional forgiveness of one another.
God gets to judge. We can not forgive āexactlyā like God does. We are not God.
I think somebody said it much better than I in post 130.
Chuck
Weāve been down this road already.
To say āIf someone asks for forgiveness, forgive themā is NOT the same as saying āDonāt forgive someone who does not ask for forgiveness.ā
This is why āallā of scripture (and Apostolic Tradition) must be taken into account when interpreting scriptue.
Sola Scriptua, especially when it becomes āSola-verse-or-two-aā just doesnāt work.
Even if you do want to place more faith in your linguistic skills, you need to do it in the language of the authors.
IF the original Greek (or Aramaic?) did not make it explicit that we should not forgive those that donāt repent, then you cannot draw the definitive conclusion you try to draw.
It is clear to me that the totality of scripture and Church teaching points toward unconditional forgiveness of one another.
God gets to judge. We can not forgive āexactlyā like God does. We are not God.
I think somebody said it much better than I in post 130.
Chuck
J
JaneFrances
Guest
Your clarification is profitable. It seems I have misunderstood your position. If, indeed, you are saying that repentance and lack of culpability are not absolute prerequisites for forgiving another person, then I agree. No problems there.
This is tricky. You are trying to understand the mind and prerogative of the Amighty God. This is impossible. You may certainly speculate, but a doctrinal stance on what conditions exist which would not require you to forgive a brother is potentially dangerous.
Simply put: We are mandated to forgive one another. In Christās words: āForgive us our sins, for we also forgive everyone who sins against usā Luke 11:4.
First, you are still moving in the direction of equating our mandate to forgive with the power of God to forgive. The two are related, to be sure, as any measure of mercy we have is a gift of Godās grace, but they are not identical, nor can they be.
To answer your question: Yes, God most certainly forgives conditionally. He knows our hearts and minds and His mercy is always dependent upon who He is.
To answer the corollary question (which you have not posed in your previous post, but which has been discussed on this thread ad nauseum) : We are to forgive those who sin against us. As we are not God, we can not possibly know the recesses and nature of manās repentance and/or culpibility, therefore, we must act in accordance with āthe greatest of theseā and forgive because we love.
C
clmowry
Guest
M
mikeledes
Guest
Soc, if someone were to knowingly harm me in a grave matter and expresses no remorse, I should not forgive that person? Is forgiveness merely for the benefit of the one being forgiven or does it benefit the one forgiving as well? What does forgiveness mean?
God Bless,
Michael
- Status