Forgiveness FAQ

[Socrates4Jesus]

You typed two posts with of text and I still don’t know what you think the difference between them are. Too many words that didn’t say anything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mlldrl forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
*What is your idea of the difference between the two? You’re smart…think abou it and let me know.

M*

My answer is that there is no difference between the two. Reconciliation is forgiveness. It is always trusting, not keeping a record of any wrongs, and completely restoring the relationship with the person.

ML:

Do you think reconciliation is possible if only the offended and not the offender wants the relationship to be reconciled?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Q. #3. Are we to forgive others in the same way God forgives us, or in a different way?

 

[clmowry]

I don’t think there is a “clean” answer to this question.

It depends upon the nature of the sin and the consequences of a potential recurence.

I’m not sure a child molester should ever be left in a situation where they might be tempted again.

A mass murder who trys to injure everyone he comes in contact with, pobably needs to stay locked up.

A guy that killed some one while drinking and driving might need some monitoring once he’s relseased if he’s an alcoholic

I guess the biggest forgiving job I’ve had is with my ex.

My ex-wife had an affair. I was fully prepaired to completely forgive her and trust her again. Made the offer ad assured her I meant it.

When despite professing that I was “her best friend” she proceeded to destroy our family because “she” had the opportunity to be “truly happy” and firmly professed that that was more important than our family because if “she was happy they’d be happy”, she received my forgiveness, but lost my trust in her ability to “love” anyone but herslef. In the 10 years that have passed her actions have done nothing to restore that trust (in fact they have renforced that beliwf in dramatic fashion). So I’ve forgiven her. I “love” her as I would anyone else, and I thank God for her role in giving me three wonderful boys. I pray frequently that her relationship with them is completely healed. But they’ve been raised in our home, with my loving wife.

Chuck

Yes, Chuck, that makes sense! In fact, one might even make a good case that the most loving thing one might do, in certain circumstances, is to not trust a person who has not earned that trust.

The question, then, is what must a person, who once having lost your trust, have to do before he can regain your trust? What condition must he meet before you should trust him once again?

 

[clmowry]

I don’t know that we can or should even try to “forgive like God does.”

We are so far removed from him it is not even possible.

God knows the hearts of all His children in a way we never can.

God has given us the free gift of His forgiveness and has taken extrordinary steps to do so.

But He is not just the God of Love and forgiveness, He is also the God of Justice and will judge all of us who refuse to accept His grace in a way that we are not capable and should not try to emulate.

His forgiveness is conditional. He requires Repentance and Faith in His Word.

We cannot require either from those who have offended us.

Chuck

Yes, Katie, it does. Your Lord and mine taught us to prayForgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.(Matthew 6:12)Which brings to mind something extremely interesting that i would like to share with you.

IfA = How God forgivesand B = How we forgivethen isn’t Jesus saying that you and i should pray this?A = Bor B = AThat is, i think He was teaching us to pray, “Forgive us, God, in the same way we forgive others” or “Use the same method we use to forgive one another when you forgive us, Father” or “Whatever conditions you require people to meet before we forgive them, require us to meet the same conditions before you forgive us.”

What do you think?

 

[mlldrl]

Quote:
My answer is that there is no difference between the two. Reconciliation is forgiveness. It is always trusting, not keeping a record of any wrongs, and completely restoring the relationship with the person.

Wrong. Simply looking at a dictionary will tell you that they are not the same thing. This is from Webster’s Online Dictionary.

reconcile
Main Entry: rec·on·cile
Pronunciation: 're-k&n-"sI(-&)l
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): -ciled; -cil·ing
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French or Latin; Anglo-French reconciler, from Latin reconciliare, from re- + conciliare to conciliate
transitive verb
1 a : to restore to friendship or harmony b : SETTLE, RESOLVE
2 : to make consistent or congruous
3 : to cause to submit to or accept something unpleasant
4 a : to check (a financial account) against another for accuracy b : to account for
intransitive verb : to become reconciled

forgive
Main Entry: for·give
Pronunciation: f&r-'giv, for-
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): for·gave /-'gAv/; for·giv·en /-'gi-v&n/; -giv·ing
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English forgifan, from for- + gifan to give
transitive verb
1 a : to give up resentment of or claim to requital for b : to grant relief from payment of
2 : to cease to feel resentment against (an offender) : PARDON <forgive one’s enemies>
intransitive verb : to grant forgiveness

Quote: Do you think reconciliation is possible if only the offended and not the offender wants the relationship to be reconciled

Given the meaning of the word, you cannot reconcile unless there was a relationship to begin with. If someone cuts me off in traffic I will forgive him but there is no relationship to reconcile. If a friend wrongs me I will forgive him. If he wants to reconcile then we can become fast friend again. If he doesn’t then we remain ‘un-reconciled’ but I still hold no malice in my heart against him. It does take two.

Just like the wonderful sacrament of reconciliation. God forgives us and wants to reconcile. He’s just waiting for us to reach out to him. To repent. To tell him we are sorry for sinning against him. At that point we are reconciled. The relationship is restored.

Does this make sense? Are you a native English speaker?

M

 

[trogiah]

This discussion is very interesting. It seems to highlight the fact that forgiveness and trust are two different things.

Clearly the Scriptures tell us we should forgive others the wrongs they have done us. However, this is what is says regarding whom we should trust.

**Thus says the LORD: Cursed is the man who trusts in human beings, who seeks his strength in flesh, whose heart turns away from the LORD. ****6 ****He is like a barren bush in the desert that enjoys no change of season, But stands in a lava waste, a salt and empty earth. ****7 ****Blessed is the man who trusts in the LORD, whose hope is the LORD. ****8 ****He is like a tree planted beside the waters that stretches out its roots to the stream: It fears not the heat when it comes, its leaves stay green; In the year of drought it shows no distress, but still bears fruit. ****9 ****More tortuous than all else is the human heart, beyond remedy; who can understand it? ****10 **I, the LORD, alone probe the mind and test the heart, To reward everyone according to his ways, according to the merit of his deeds.
Those who have honest, open and trusting relationships with all family members are fortunate. Putting one’s absolute trust in another person, even one who is generally reliable, is not commanded to us by God, is not a sign of a perfect relationship with that person (because there is no such thing), and is not a good idea. Putting one’s absolute trust in oneself is also not a good idea. None of us are worthy of such trust.

A person should be trusted to the extent that they have showed they are worthy of such trust. Denying trust to someone who is not worthy of it is not an act of unkindness. It is deference to reality.

With respect to forgiveness, letting go of bitterness, resentment or rage is always a good idea, no matter how great the sin. But again that is not the same as trusting another person.

Jim

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

I don’t think there is a “clean” answer to this question.

It depends upon the nature of the sin and the consequences of a potential recurence.

I’m not sure a child molester should ever be left in a situation where they might be tempted again.

A mass murder who trys to injure everyone he comes in contact with, pobably needs to stay locked up.

A guy that killed some one while drinking and driving might need some monitoring once he’s relseased if he’s an alcoholic

I guess the biggest forgiving job I’ve had is with my ex.

My ex-wife had an affair. I was fully prepaired to completely forgive her and trust her again. Made the offer ad assured her I meant it.

When despite professing that I was “her best friend” she proceeded to destroy our family because “she” had the opportunity to be “truly happy” and firmly professed that that was more important than our family because if “she was happy they’d be happy”, she received my forgiveness, but lost my trust in her ability to “love” anyone but herslef. In the 10 years that have passed her actions have done nothing to restore that trust (in fact they have renforced that beliwf in dramatic fashion). So I’ve forgiven her. I “love” her as I would anyone else, and I thank God for her role in giving me three wonderful boys. I pray frequently that her relationship with them is completely healed. But they’ve been raised in our home, with my loving wife.

Chuck

I cannot imagine what you have gone through.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Wrong. Simply looking at a dictionary will tell you that they are not the same thing. This is from Webster’s Online Dictionary.

reconcile
Main Entry: rec·on·cile
Pronunciation: 're-k&n-"sI(-&)l
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): -ciled; -cil·ing
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French or Latin; Anglo-French reconciler, from Latin reconciliare, from re- + conciliare to conciliate
transitive verb
1 a : to restore to friendship or harmony b : SETTLE, RESOLVE
2 : to make consistent or congruous
3 : to cause to submit to or accept something unpleasant
4 a : to check (a financial account) against another for accuracy b : to account for
intransitive verb : to become reconciled

forgive
Main Entry: for·give
Pronunciation: f&r-'giv, for-
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): for·gave /-'gAv/; for·giv·en /-'gi-v&n/; -giv·ing
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English forgifan, from for- + gifan to give
transitive verb
1 a : to give up resentment of or claim to requital for b : to grant relief from payment of
2 : to cease to feel resentment against (an offender) : PARDON <forgive one’s enemies>
intransitive verb : to grant forgiveness

Given the meaning of the word, you cannot reconcile unless there was a relationship to begin with. If someone cuts me off in traffic I will forgive him but there is no relationship to reconcile. If a friend wrongs me I will forgive him. If he wants to reconcile then we can become fast friend again. If he doesn’t then we remain ‘un-reconciled’ but I still hold no malice in my heart against him. It does take two.

Just like the wonderful sacrament of reconciliation. God forgives us and wants to reconcile. He’s just waiting for us to reach out to him. To repent. To tell him we are sorry for sinning against him. At that point we are reconciled. The relationship is restored.

Does this make sense? Are you a native English speaker?

M

M:

Socrates said that “arguments, like men, are often pretenders” and i now see that my argument has fooled me. What i thought to be an impenetrable battleship has been sunk by one shot of your logic to my port bow.

I’m now treading water, embarrassed that i so easily put my trust in believing that forgiveness is what i say and do. The big guns of your force of logic, M, have fired straight and true and sent my ship of lies hissing to the bottom of the sea.

Perhaps now, in your pity, you will come along side me and throw me a line so i can let your ship safely take me to the port of truth?

 

[mlldrl]

Perhaps now, in your pity, you will come along side me and throw me a line so i can let your ship safely take me to the port of truth?

You crack me up! Keep seeking the truth but do try to stop over complicating things.

God Bless,
M

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Its both. I don’t believe you can legitimately separate the two.

David:

I have not heard from you during this “battle” for truth. My ship is sunk, but yours is still sailing. If you care to come within range of the formidable cannons of the USS M, perhaps you can rescue me from certain death by sharks or capture by my “foe”.

It seems there are three possible natures of forgiveness:

T - Forgiveness is what i think
S - Forgiveness is what i say
D - Forgiveness is what i do

Now i, foolishly, tried to argue that forgiveness is (S) and (D) but not (T). M appears to have destroyed that logical argument. So the idea that

(F1) Forgiveness = S and D but not T
Is shown to be false.

Now M and LM and others reason that

(F2) Forgiveness = T but not S nor D
You, David, are sailing a battleship flying a different flag. You hold that

(F3) Forgiveness = T and S and D

Will you come to my aid in this sea battle? or are you going to lower your flag and raise that of the “enemy”?

(PLEASE NOTE: I’m playing with words, here. I do not really think M or LM are my enemies; they are actually being friends to me by helping me discover the truth.)

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

You crack me up! Keep seeking the truth but do try to stop over complicating things.

God Bless,
M

Glad to make you chuckle, M!

I have found that the Bible on one level is so simple a child can understand it, but on other levels is so deep a professional theologian can drown in it. As soon as i think i fully understand something, i learn something new that challenges what i thought to be the truth.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

M:

This might be more complicated to express, but i think it makes it easier to understand. There are three ways of understanding forgiveness that we are considering:
(F1) Forgiveness = S and D but not T

(F2) Forgiveness = T but not S nor D
(F3) Forgiveness = T and S and D

where

T = What we think
S = What we say
and
D = What we do

Am i correct in suggesting that you believe (F2) to be the truth and reject (F1) and (F3) on the grounds that they are untrue?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

I don’t know that we can or should even try to “forgive like God does.”

We are so far removed from him it is not even possible.

God knows the hearts of all His children in a way we never can.

God has given us the free gift of His forgiveness and has taken extrordinary steps to do so.

But He is not just the God of Love and forgiveness, He is also the God of Justice and will judge all of us who refuse to accept His grace in a way that we are not capable and should not try to emulate.

His forgiveness is conditional. He requires Repentance and Faith in His Word.

We cannot require either from those who have offended us.

Chuck

Chuck:

You make some extremely good points, here.

I do want to discuss this with you after i better understand what M is saying to me. Please keep checking back at this discussion thread for my reply to this post, which i will give as soon as i am able.

 

[clmowry]

Isn’t S included in D so you realy only have F1 and F3?

I believe F3 BTW.

Chuck

M:

This might be more complicated to express, but i think it makes it easier to understand. There are three ways of understanding forgiveness that we are considering:
(F1) Forgiveness = S and D but not T

(F2) Forgiveness = T but not S nor D
(F3) Forgiveness = T and S and D

where

T = What we think
S = What we say
and
D = What we do

Am i correct in suggesting that you believe (F2) to be the truth and reject (F1) and (F3) on the grounds that they are untrue?

 

[mlldrl]

This might be more complicated to express…

You’ve got that right. I think I suggested not over complicating issues.

Am i correct in suggesting that you believe (F2) to be the truth and reject (F1) and (F3) on the grounds that they are untrue?

This is ridiculous. I believe I explained myself clearly. Forgiveness is an act of the will. What you may or may not do or say is irreverent to the act of forgiving. Those things come after, they are responses to the act (of the will) of forgiving.

M

 

[Deidre]

This is ridiculous. I believe I explained myself clearly. Forgiveness is an act of the will. What you may or may not do or say is irreverent to the act of forgiving. Those things come after, they are responses to the act (of the will) of forgiving.

M

Do you really think it’s an act of will? I’m not arguing by any means, I’m just asking because I’m in a situation that has really been bugging me lately and I thought of going to talk to my priest.

There’s a person from my past, who I want to forgive, who I can say I forgive, but if I’m honest with myself I don’t think I’m really feeling it in my heart. I think I’m still angry.

I don’t wish anything bad on this person. I don’t hate him. I’ve even asked God to forgive him. But the thing about it is - my heart doesn’t feel settled in the matter. I’m afraid I might be fooling myself because I want to be right with God. And since God knows my heart, I feel like I’m praying without a clean heart. And that’s really bugging me.

But I’ve not been able to figure out how to make my heart feel what I want it to feel. But could you possibly be saying that wanting to forgive him is enough? Is that an act of will?

Sorry, I’m really not trying to overcomplicate things. This thread just really came up in a timely matter for me and as I’ve been struggling with this issue I just thought I’d try to get some (name removed by moderator)ut. Could I be putting too much emphasis on feeling? Or could God be trying to tell me I still have some work to do?

 

[mlldrl]

Do you really think it’s an act of will? I’m not arguing by any means, I’m just asking because I’m in a situation that has really been bugging me lately and I thought of going to talk to my priest.

There’s a person from my past, who I want to forgive, who I can say I forgive, but if I’m honest with myself I don’t think I’m really feeling it in my heart. I think I’m still angry.

I don’t wish anything bad on this person. I don’t hate him. I’ve even asked God to forgive him. But the thing about it is - my heart doesn’t feel settled in the matter. I’m afraid I might be fooling myself because I want to be right with God. And since God knows my heart, I feel like I’m praying without a clean heart. And that’s really bugging me.

But I’ve not been able to figure out how to make my heart feel what I want it to feel. But could you possibly be saying that wanting to forgive him is enough? Is that an act of will?

Sorry, I’m really not trying to overcomplicate things. This thread just really came up in a timely matter for me and as I’ve been struggling with this issue I just thought I’d try to get some (name removed by moderator)ut. Could I be putting too much emphasis on feeling? Or could God be trying to tell me I still have some work to do?

Deidre,

I can sense how much this hurts you. Give me some time to respond…I’ve been through this very same thing.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Isn’t S included in D so you realy only have F1 and F3?

I believe F3 BTW.

Chuck

Yes, i agree that S and D are alike, in that they are both actions, and unlike T, in that it is merely thought. Perhaps i should rephrase (F2) to make it clearer:

(F1) Forgiveness = S and D but not T

(F2) Forgiveness = T but not S and not D(F3) Forgiveness = T and S and D

where

T = What we thinkS = What we sayandD = What we do
Thank you for your reply, Chuck. Both you and David hold that (F3) is the truth and M and LM hold that (F1) is the truth. Can you think of any way to show (F1) is false? or will you explain why you believe (F3) is not false?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

…With respect to forgiveness, letting go of bitterness, resentment or rage is always a good idea, no matter how great the sin. But again that is not the same as trusting another person.

Jim

Yes, Jim, i agree. Yet, both trusting a person who deserves to be trusted and keeping no record of wrongs are attributes of love, are they not? Would you say, then, that forgiveness is really just one aspect of love, and that love is the best of all motivators which includes forgiveness, patience, trust and all other ways of good and righteous thinking?

 

[clmowry]

Not that I think a little more about it, I guess it realy depends upon from who’s perspective your evaluating the act of forgiveness.

From the point of view of the forgiven, F1 and F3 would both appear to be forgiveness.

From the point of view of the forgiving (or at the risk of being presumptious, from God’s point of view since he know are hearts and our deed) F3 would be true forgiveness.

But I think I could make a case for F1 being forgiveness from the perspective of the forgiving and God as well. I might still have thoughts about the forgiven that reek of unforgiveness, but if I do not take any actions in response to those thougths, and I work on eliminating those negative thoughts over time, then that would appear to be nothing more than resisting a temptation to be unforgiving.

F2 would only appear to be forgiveness for someone who has decided that their intentions are more important than their actions.

Chuck

Perhaps i should rephrase F2:

(F1) Forgiveness = S and D but not T

(F2) Forgiveness = T but not S and not D(F3) Forgiveness = T and S and D

where

T = What we thinkS = What we sayandD = What we do
Thank you for your reply, Chuck. Both you and David hold that (F3) is the truth and M and LM hold that (F1) is the truth. Can you think of any way to show (F1) is false? or will you explain why you believe (F3) is not false?