Forgiveness FAQ

[guanophore]

What condition does He say someone must meet before you and i forgive her?

None. Repentance of the offender is not required. Jesus forgave His crucifiers, Stephen forgave his murderers.

I can think of no passage of the Bible that says, “Forgive your enemies” can you? Instead, what Jesus says is

"You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
(Matthew Matthew 5:42-45)
Do you think it is possible that all forgiveness is love but not all love is forgiveness?

No, this is not possible. When Jesus tells us to pray for our enemies, He means to pray in His name. Since God desires that all be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth, a pure prayer will want only the best of God’s plan for that person. Forgiveness is an integral part of that plan.

Rom 12:14-13:1

14 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse them. 15 Rejoice with those who rejoice, weep with those who weep. 16 Live in harmony with one another; do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly; never be conceited. 17 Repay no one evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all. 18 If possible, so far as it depends upon you, live peaceably with all. 19 Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God; for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.” 20 No, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals upon his head.” 21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good. "

God calls us to do our part. That means we are to be at peace with all. That does not mean that they will change. that is also why we do not wait for people to repent before they can be forgiven.

Does anyone else want to give their vote as to the essential nature of forgiveness? Once all the votes are in and we have a definition of forgiveness on which we can keep our eyes, we should proceed to inquire as to how this definition applies to the question of how we should forgive.

Next time I think you should create a poll at the same time you open the thread!

Are you saying that forgiveness has to do with your thoughts but not with your actions? or are you saying something else?

It is both. Forgiveness is an act of the will. Often it takes the mind and emotions quite some time to follow the will. Forgiveness will also manifest itself in loving behavior toward the offender.

 

[JaneFrances]

I believe, Jane, your disagreement is not with me.

Your assertion that I am in “disagreement” with St. Paul is not only offensive, but wrong.

Rather than trying to use my limited faculties to discern whether or not I “agree” with Scripture, I simply place my faith in my Lord and Savior when he says,
“Forgive us our sins, for we also forgive everyone who sins against us” Luke 11:4.
It is not for me to agree or disagree, I must simply obey.

Out of obedience to the Word, I am to forgive everyone who sins against me.

It is not my opinion that you and i should try to forgive as God forgives, it is the opinion of St. Paul.

Your argument, then, is with him, for he wrote

Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.

(Ephesians 4:32)

Interestingly, you have entirely avoided my question regarding how it is that God forgives. . .To remind you, I asked (from post #148):

How does the Lord forgive, Socrates4Jesus?

In His Omniscience, he knows man’s heart. He knows man’s weakness. He knows man’s sin. He knows man’s mind. His forgiveness is not bound by time or subject to the frailty of our contrition. He forgives in perfect mercy and justice with perfect perspective and sovereign grace.

So, practically speaking how do I forgive as the Lord forgives? In the same way, how do I respond to Christ’s words:
Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. Matthew 5:48?

In another thread, you have maintained that it is impossible for one to be practically perfect, thus you have espoused a “positionally perfect” doctrine. So, using your professed method of comparing Scripture to Scripture to derive truth, do you also contend that it is practically impossible to forgive as God forgives?

How does your understanding of forgiveness flow logically from this comparison?

If you can not be practically perfect as God is perfect, how can you practically forgive as God forgives?

and as you quoted him earlierBear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you.

(Colossians 3:13)

What does it mean, Jane, to forgive “just as in Christ God forgave you”?

I will offer you this possiblity. . .Just as we are called to perfection, in Christ, as human beings. We are also called to forgiveness in Him, as our nature allows.

This means, you and I are human beings. We have a human nature which limits us in ways that God intends. Even before the Fall, human beings were made limited in knowledge. As human beings even with grace, by God’s own Design, we can not know, as God knows, the depths of any man’s repentance and/or culpability. So, we are simply called by Christ to forgive as an act of Love.

Christ’s mercy is perfect. By all estimates, my contrition and knowledge are all imperfect. Thus, Christ forgives me despite myself.

In the same way, especially as I can not perceive as Christ perceives a man’s contrition and knowledge, I am called to forgive others despite themselves.

Q. for S4J: What measure of repentance and/or lack of culpability is necessary for you to discern whether you must forgive another person?

 

[Tweety]

Tweety:

I cannot imagine what you have gone through. I think Jesus would agree you were right to keep your daughter safe from the evil man, for as St. Paul said, “Love … always protects” (1 Corinthians 13).

I trust that Jesus will judge the man if he never repents. I also know that Jesus tells you and me to love even our enemies. He is certainly an enemy of you and any others that he has harmed and might harm.

If it is too personal a pair of questions to ask, please do not answer. What do you think is the appropriate way to love him if he never repents? What do you think is the appropriate way to love those he might soon molest? They’re not easy questions, and your answer is none of my business. They’re just something to think about.

Hi Socrates4Jesus,

Firstly, Gemma was my flowergirl, my best friend’s daughter… not my daughter, i am not blessed with one as yet…but i do have an adorable son.

What is the appropriate way to love him if he never repents? Just as i do now… I have forgiven, i cannot go back… He has a sickness, his own doing, but it is still a perverse sickness. My aunty and he separated and all through the marriage he was unfaithful. I wanted my aunty to tell my cousins before i got married and she did, and let’s say that i got mixed reactions… but the truth is the truth, even if it comes out 20 years later… He at 65, has had another relationship and has a daughter from it. (His older daughter - my cousin is 8 days younger than me and she also has a daughter who is now 18 yrs of age, and apparently, he has never touched his grandchild.) and his daughter from his new relationship would now be 7 i think. To be honest with you, i don’t think he would touch his own flesh… i was a very shy, timid, placid little girl. He knew i would not say anything… whereas his daughter, my cousin would have, her daughter would have too… He does not live full time with his partner and their child. They visit i believe and stay over… I pray that he leaves Claudia alone…

What do i think is the appropriate way to love those he might soon molest? Well i pray that he molests no-one in the future, but that being said, i don’t really understand your question? The appropriate way to love someone is unconditionally. The victim is not to blame, and should be loved and understood…

For me, i trust in God, and leave it up to him. If this man is truly sorry for what he has done to me, God will forgive him, and i have no problem with that… If Jesus can forgive, so can i. I want to be welcome in his Father’s home, and i must forgive to be forgiven. Now, if he is not sorry, then so be it, it is out of my hands. I don’t ask God to forgive him, i forgive him. That is between God and he, as i am God’s child. This man told my mother many, many years ago “What God?”. I really do feel sorry for him now days. He is a sleaze etc… but even though i have forgiven, i will not lie about him. He is disgusting, and the thought of seeing him for one micro second turns my stomach, but i wish no harm on him. My husband could still do something permanent to this man as he puts it, but wouldn’t actually do it… I have been to hell and back, but God sees all, and knows it happened. One day his family who are in denial - will too, when they reach heaven… He is not my enemy, he WAS. I have truly forgiven, so i cannot say that anymore. I ask God to bless him every time i am in Mass, and i do that for me, not for him. I also ask that he never touches his young daughter.

It is really quite simple for me now, as i am, but years ago… a different story… You really have to LET GO of things… which is easier said than done mind you, but true.

Forgiveness saved me.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

…God calls us to do our part. That means we are to be at peace with all. That does not mean that they will change. that is also why we do not wait for people to repent before they can be forgiven. …

Guano:

Does God speak through St. Paul saying, “live at peace with everyone” or saying, “If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone”?

Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay,"says the Lord. On the contrary:
“If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.
In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.” Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.
(Romans 12:17-21)

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

… Next time I think you should create a poll at the same time you open the thread!

It is both. Forgiveness is an act of the will. Often it takes the mind and emotions quite some time to follow the will. Forgiveness will also manifest itself in loving behavior toward the offender.

Yes, perhaps i should! Thank you for adding your vote to the poll:

Forgiveness is an attribute of love or act of love
6

Forgiveness is not an attribute of love nor an act of love
0

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Your assertion that I am in “disagreement” with St. Paul is not only offensive, but wrong.

Rather than trying to use my limited faculties to discern whether or not I “agree” with Scripture, I simply place my faith in my Lord and Savior when he says,

“Forgive us our sins, for we also forgive everyone who sins against us” Luke 11:4.

It is not for me to agree or disagree, I must simply obey.

Out of obedience to the Word, I am to forgive everyone who sins against me.
…

Jane, your words cause me pain. Please try to see it from my point of view. If i believe your beliefs contradict those of St. Paul and i do not tell you, would that be an expression of love or hate? I’m not trying to debate. I’m trying to discover the truth for myself. If i do not tell you why i cannot accept a premise you have, am i attacking you, personally? No. I’m simply being sincere with you. I could ignore what you say to avoid offending you, but i think this would be rude. The best course of action i believe i should take is to speak the truth, as i see it, in love, and with as much gentleness and respect as i can muster. If you can think of a more gentle, respectful and less offensive way that i should say that i think you and St. Paul disagree, please tell me.

 

[JaneFrances]

Jane, your words cause me pain. Please try to see it from my point of view. If i believe your beliefs contradict those of St. Paul and i do not tell you, would that be an expression of love or hate? I’m not trying to debate. I’m trying to discover the truth for myself. If i do not tell you why i cannot accept a premise you have, am i attacking you, personally? No. I’m simply being sincere with you. I could ignore what you say to avoid offending you, but i think this would be rude. The best course of action i believe i should take is to speak the truth, as i see it, in love, and with as much gentleness and respect as i can muster. If you can think of a more gentle, respectful and less offensive way that i should say that i think you and St. Paul disagree, please tell me.

Oh, goodness gracious. . .please don’t be pained. That’s just silly.

I never said that you were attacking me. I said I am offended by your assertion that I “disagree” with St. Paul, when you have provided no proof and no sound reasoning which would suggest this is the case.

Please do not become distracted.

Honestly, I don’t care in the least of you are “gentle” in your approach. The offense I take is based entirely on your baseless claim that I disagree with St. Paul.

There is no disconnect in the truth of the Word.

Yes, we are instructed by St. Paul to
"Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you" (Eph. 4:32).

Thus far, you have entirely avoided my challenge to explain how exactly you can do this. I ask again: If you maintain that you can not be perfect as God is perfect, how can you practically forgive as He forgives? It’s a simple question and one you must be able to answer for your position to stand.

The Lord teaches us to pray:
Forgive us our sins, for we also forgive everyone who sins against us. (Luke 11:4).

Our Savior also tells us:
"For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins." Matthew 6:14-15

And the Son also teaches:
"Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. "(Luke 6:37)

You have created a quasi-doctrinal positon which allows you to withhold your forgiveness from a brother based on a set of conditions which you perceive are implicit in Scripture. Thus far, you assert that you are free to not forgive someone who is not repentant and/or is culpable for their sin.

This position, as I have demonstrated in numerous previous posts, is not sound as it clearly ignores the Scriptural mandate we have to “forgive everyone who sins against us.”

Further, your position is faulty as it requires you to rightly discern, as God does, whether a sinner is sufficiently repentant and/or culpable. This is practically impossible for you. You are not God, thus you can not judge as He judges. St. Paul instructs us to simply forgive as He forgives.

Our Lord God, in perfect mercy and justice, forgives us in spite of ourselves. We, then, are to forgive others in spite of themselves.

The harmony of truth and the seamless garment of Sacred Scripture would then offer that for human beings to forgive other human beings as God forgives does not entail following rubric of conditional prerequisites. Instead Christian forgiveness is simply an act. . .a function. . .an attribute. . .an expression of the unconditional Love of Christ. Christ offers forgiveness because he loves in spite of our frailty, shortcomings, and fault. We, in turn, forgive because we love.

When you can offer a sound defense of your position which opposes the Scriptural mandate to “forgive everyone who sins against you,” this dialogue can progress.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Jane:

What does St. Paul mean when he tell you and i to forgive “just as in Christ God forgave you” (Eph. 4:32)?

Does he mean that you and i should forgive, in as far as we are able, the way that God forgives us? If not, then what does he mean?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

… I pray that he leaves Claudia alone…

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects …

(1 Corinthians 13:4-7)
Tweety:

St. Paul tells you and me that “love … always protects”. Is praying for Claudia all that you can do to protect her? Have you asked Jesus during prayer whether you yourself should take any action to protect her?

 

[clmowry]

Freely, completely and without having done anything to deserve it…

While we were “enemies” un-reconciled with God He came and sacraficed Himself.

He didn’t wait for the world to repent first.

Chuck

Jane:

What does St. Paul mean when he tell you and i to forgive “just as in Christ God forgave you” (Eph. 4:32)?

Does he mean that you and i should forgive, in as far as we are able, the way that God forgives us? If not, then what does he mean?

 

[Tweety]

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects …

(1 Corinthians 13:4-7)
Tweety:

St. Paul tells you and me that “love … always protects”. Is praying for Claudia all that you can do to protect her? Have you asked Jesus during prayer whether you yourself should take any action to protect her?

Socrates4Jesus,

Firstly i love Corinthians - that was one of the readings at my wedding (i suppose many, many, many, many people have that as a reading at weddings.)

I was molested AND i was loved by JESUS. God allowed it to happen, i do not question him as to WHY? I would never DARE ask either… This man has free will, and did/does as he pleases. He is a very, very, very well known, influential man in my city and i have no proof to go to the authorities - it happened roughly from 1971 to 1974 - a long time ago… but i did make it known to his family. It is out of my hands now and all i can do is ask God to protect this sweet innocent girl… His 2 children from the marriage to my aunty know the truth and that is good enough for me.

I do not need a *guilt trip *for Claudia - his child from his new relationship. I have had more than enough guilt trips in my life and **refuse to go back down that path… I will not be held responsible for his actions - that is unfair to me. I pray that he does not touch his flesh and blood and i don’t think he would as everyone in his family knows what he did to me…and have open eyes. That being said, i am only in touch with my aunty and my male cousin as my female cousin feels that it is between me and her father and does not believe me as i kept it held in for sooo many years… yet her brother told his father off and told him he believed me… IF they do or don’t - it’s out of my hands.
**
Forgiveness is a choice.

You must decide to forgive truly and completely from your heart - that is true forgiveness, anything less will just bring back all the negativity/anger etc…

You can forgive someone, but not want to be a part of their lives you know? You don’t have to trust them again… We have to decide what/who is good for us, our family, our lives and our relationship with God. You can love someone without liking them, and let’s face it - it is very hard to like everybody - but you can ask God to bless them and i think he appreciates that.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

No guilt trip is necessary for me to give you, Tweety. If i had asked you the question and you would have said that praying for Claudia is all that you had done, and you had not tried to warn anyone about the wicked man, then i might have considered a gentle and respectful rebuke. As you said, it sounds like you have done all you can do and prayer is the best course of action. As Jesus tells you and me"But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you."

(Luke 6:27-28)
I was thinking that the most good you could do for such a man would be to see that he spends time in prison. Such an experience might bring Him to repentance, and as St. Peter wrote

The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

(2 Peter 3:9)

I have no cause to lay a guilt trip on you, but you certainly have cause to lay a guilt trip on him. Loving him means helping him repent, doesn’t it? If he does not repent, isn’t he in danger of God’s judgement?

Again, i cannot say i know what you are feeling. I have no idea of what you went through and are going through. All i know is what i’ve learned from the those through whom God spoke in the Bible. I’m not judging what you have done as wrong, just raising possibilities for you to think about.

As for crying out to God and asking Him why He allowed this to happen, i think this can be a healthy way of dealing with the emotional pain. Jesus Himself cried out on the cross

“My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”

(Matthew 27:46)
If it was not a sin for Him who never sinned, it would not be a sin for you. When i have suffered betrayal, i have asked Him why and trusted Him to use the pain to make me better and not bitter.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Freely, completely and without having done anything to deserve it…

While we were “enemies” un-reconciled with God He came and sacraficed Himself.

He didn’t wait for the world to repent first.

Chuck

Chuck:

Yes, i agree that Father loved you and i first. When my wife was pregnant i spoke to my sons through her abdomen. I loved them before they even knew me. I think God loves us something like that. I also think He loved us long before He forgave us.

Since He loves us before He forgives us, that means love is possible without forgiveness, because He can love first and forgive later. He loved us and made the way for us to be forgiven long before we are even born and committed any sins for which we needed to be forgiven. The question is, when do we receive His free gift of forgiveness? The answer, i believe, is when we repent.

St. Peter wrote

The Lord is … patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.(2 Peter 3:9)
and St. Paul urged people to

“Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord … .”(Acts 3:19)and St. John tells us

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.(1 John 1:19)and our Savior and Judge Jesus, before He ever spoke the words, “your sins are forgiven” first said

“The kingdom of God is near. Repent and believe the good news!”(Mark 1:5)and later He explained

“I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”(Luke 5:32)If repentance is not a condition to receive God’s forgiveness, then why did Jesus and His followers tell everyone that they must repent to be forgiven by God?

I believe Jane is correct that God forgives you and me conditionally. Since forgiveness is an attribute or act of love, it seems, then that God loves us in some ways unconditionally and in other ways conditionally. What do you think?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

The question i have asked everyone to help me answer is this:

* **Q. 7a. Is forgiveness an attribute of love, or an act of love, or both, or neither?"*The the results of our unscientific opinion poll, is (after my vote) this:

Forgiveness is an attribute of love or act of love
7

Forgiveness is not an attribute nor an act of love
0

Seven, the ancient Jewish rabbis tell us, is a number representing God’s perfection. It seems fitting, then, to close the poll and say that we have our definition of forgiveness:

(M) Forgiveness is either an attribute of love, or an act of love, or both.This appears a reasonable premise, for St. Paul tell us

And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.(1 Corinthians 13:13)so that i believe we should conclude that all virtues (all that we think, say or do that pleases God) is an attribute or act of faith or hope or love. Forgiveness does not seem to be either hope or faith, so i think i am correct in thinking it is one of many attributes or acts of love.

If anyone objects, let her speak now, or forever hold her peace.

If there are no objections by tomorrow, i’d like us to use this definition to teach me how i should apply it to my actions. I will take the definition to its logical conclusion and let it be my guide and instructor and show me how to forgive. With God’s help, the reason He gave me, the Word of God He gave all of us, and all of you as my teachers, i trust i will learn in what way i should forgive. I hope you will all help me.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Thank you. And the answer to question 7a?

Forgiveness, like love, is not a feeling. It is an act of the will.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Forgiveness, like love, is not a feeling. It is an act of the will.

Thank you, RC. The polling results are now

Forgiveness is an attribute of love or act of love
8

Forgiveness is not an attribute nor an act of love
0

The number 8, the ancient rabbis tell us, is a number representing new beginnings. If no one objects to our definition of love, we will begin this dialog with a new direction, tomorrow. We shall let this definition teach us how to forgive. I hope you will join us.

 

[guanophore]

Q. What conditions must someone meet before i should forgive her?

I question the basic premise of this inquiry. What makes you think that anyone should meet conditions? In later posts you state “if your brother repents, forgive him”, and this is also true, but forgiveness is not limited to repentent persons.

Guano:

Does God speak through St. Paul saying, “live at peace with everyone” or saying, “If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone”?

Because there is evil in the world, and within people, it is impossible to be at peace with everyone. Even in Genesis, God states that He places enmity between the devil and the seed of Eve.

However, it is possible for a believer to be at peace with oneself, with God, and with others, so much as it depends upon that person. By that I think it means that we have no control over others, and cannot compel them to be at peace toward us. Our challenge is to be at peace with those who wish the opposite!

Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay,"says the Lord. On the contrary:
“If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.
In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.” Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.
(Romans 12:17-21)

My current dilemma is trying to understand how this principle should be applied in the middle east, and on this Memorial Day, reflecting on the events of 9/11 and how to respond peacefully to such atrocities.

 

[guanophore]

As for crying out to God and asking Him why He allowed this to happen, i think this can be a healthy way of dealing with the emotional pain. Jesus Himself cried out on the cross

“My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”

(Matthew 27:46)
If it was not a sin for Him who never sinned, it would not be a sin for you. When i have suffered betrayal, i have asked Him why and trusted Him to use the pain to make me better and not bitter.

This is a good course of action. Harboring unforgiveness and resentment in one’s heart is like drinking poison, and expecting the other person to die.

 

[JaneFrances]

Jane:

What does St. Paul mean when he tell you and i to forgive “**just as **in Christ God forgave you” (Eph. 4:32)?

God is perfect. His knowledge of our sin, contrition, and culpability is boundless. He searches our hearts and knows us better than we know ourselves. Even to human beings who have imperfect contrition and varying degrees of culpability, God still offers forgiveness through Jesus Christ.

You are very stuck on the phrase “just as.” I will help you. The Greek (which I remember has been an issue for you, but since you have referenced it yourself, I imagine you now accept it as a reliable source) renders this phrase: “kathos.” The Biblical usage is not limited to your understanding of “just as” to mean “in exactly the very same way without any differences.” Instead, it is a broader phrase which offers a reasonable comparison. This is also interpreted, in other translations, as “according as” or “even as” or “so as.”

Here’s an example in a non-Biblical sense. A mother says to her sons, “Boys, it is time to clean up. John, see how Matthew is cleaning up the puzzle, please clean up the playdough just as your brother is cleaning up.” It is impossible for John to do the very exact same thing that Matthew is doing, yet he is explicitly told to clean up just as his brother is cleaning up.

In the same way, God forgives as only He can, with all Knowledge, perfect Mercy, and right Judgement. Any measure of forgiveness we have is, at best, reflective of the mercy we have received from Him. Thus, just as he Forgives us in spite of our imperfections, we are told to forgive others in spite of their imperfections.

As Scripture holds, the Lord teaches us to pray:
“Forgive us our sins,
for we also forgive everyone who sins against us.” Luke 11:4

If indeed, your interpretation of St. Paul’s words to the Ephesians is correct and you need only forgive others who meet certain conditions, how do you, not being God, determine the measure of repentance and/or lack of culpabilty which is sufficient for you to dole your forgiveness?

And further, you seem to see a disconnect between St. Paul and Jesus. If your interpretation of St. Paul’s words to the Ephesians is sound, how do you reconcile the instruction of St. Paul and the teaching of Jesus Christ which calls us to “forgive everyone who sins against us”?

 

[Tweety]

No guilt trip is necessary for me to give you, Tweety. If i had asked you the question and you would have said that praying for Claudia is all that you had done, and you had not tried to warn anyone about the wicked man, then i might have considered a gentle and respectful rebuke. As you said, it sounds like you have done all you can do and prayer is the best course of action. As Jesus tells you and me"But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you."

(Luke 6:27-28)
I was thinking that the most good you could do for such a man would be to see that he spends time in prison. Such an experience might bring Him to repentance, and as St. Peter wrote

The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

(2 Peter 3:9)

I have no cause to lay a guilt trip on you, but you certainly have cause to lay a guilt trip on him. Loving him means helping him repent, doesn’t it? If he does not repent, isn’t he in danger of God’s judgement?

Again, i cannot say i know what you are feeling. I have no idea of what you went through and are going through. All i know is what i’ve learned from the those through whom God spoke in the Bible. I’m not judging what you have done as wrong, just raising possibilities for you to think about.

As for crying out to God and asking Him why He allowed this to happen, i think this can be a healthy way of dealing with the emotional pain. Jesus Himself cried out on the cross

“My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”

(Matthew 27:46)
If it was not a sin for Him who never sinned, it would not be a sin for you. When i have suffered betrayal, i have asked Him why and trusted Him to use the pain to make me better and not bitter.

Sorry, i am defensive as people have tried to put the guilt trip on me in regards to Claudia before.

Yes, he is in danger of God’s judgement if he doesn’t repent as we are all responsible for our own actions, God gave us FREE WILL. It has nothing to do with me if he repents or not. I do not see him, and I have no desire to look at this man ever again, let alone sit down and have a discussion with him. I have forgiven but i have not forgotten.

Yes in the perfect world, he would have gone to prison for what he did, but he hasn’t. I heard that he has visited Asia where there are little boys too, but this could just be rumours, i really don’t know if this is 100% true. No evidence anyway, just my word against his and when you hold things in for so many years, people don’t seem to believe you. “Why didn’t she say something years ago, why did she keep it all in…did it really happen?” etc…

I believe that it is healthy to ask God why, I find it easier when it comes to other people, but rarely for myself. We all have crosses to carry on this earth, it is not up to me as to why? I have questioned God a few times - when my daddy committed suicide (he was very sick) but still i questioned then, and when i had a miscarriage at 3 months was the other time i questioned God.

When i was diagnosed with liver tumours, we were waiting on the biopsy report, my mum said to God that she trusted in him and put me into his hands… Let Thy will be done… When she was diagnosed with 3 months to live 9 years ago, she said the same thing to God and i asked her “Why you mama?” and she looked at me so sweetly and said “But why not me? - who am i sweetie?” So very humble, was so accepting of God’s will - no matter what the outcome. Pray, Trust and Don’t Worry as St Padre Pio said. I know it’s good to question, but i also believe that it’s good to ‘accept’ things too. I know a lady who had been battling with leukemia for 4 years i think… and i saw her in the shops and we stopped to talk. She was so upset and i asked if she was ok and she said to me “I have never asked God why i got leukemia, but i have to ask him why Ann?” Ann was the wife of our boss at St Vincent De Paul, who had breast cancer years before, but the cancer returned years later and she passed away. 3 weeks later, i attended Gai’s funeral. She left behind a husband and 3 children, the youngest being 9 i think, a little girl. I admire Gai so very much.

If he is truly sorry, God will forgive him. I believe that God forgives anyone who is truly sorry, how could he not??? If that happens - good! If it doesn’t it is his loss, and has absolutely **nothing **to do with me. If that is the case up in heaven, i will embrace him. I can’t say that i have lost any sleep over whether or not one day he will believe in God or admit to it. Either way, God knows the truth.

Off to playgroup with my little angel.

Shalom.