Forgiveness FAQ

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I’d have to say yes to both of these.

Though the other attributes of love are other acts / attributes we will share with those we forgive. “The” act of love that “is” forgiveness would be “keeps no record of wrongs.”

Chuck
Socrates4Jesus said:
🤷

Q. 9. We should love those we forgive in every way that is wise. However, is forgiveness only that attribute or act of love that “keeps no record of wrongs” (1 Corinthians 13:4)?
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clmowry said:
I’d have to say yes to both of these.

Though the other attributes of love are other acts / attributes we will share with those we forgive. “The” act of love that “is” forgiveness would be “keeps no record of wrongs.”

Chuck
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Thank you, Chuck. 🙂

I should ask you the same question i asked Guano, as he appears to have left for the moment. Would you say that forgiveness is:
(a) Keeping no record of wrongs in my thoughts, but keeping a record of wrongs in my words and deeds?

or

(b) Keeping no record of wrongs in my thoughts and words, but keeping a record of wrongs with my actions?

or

(c) Keeping no record of wrongs in my thoughts, words and deeds?
 
Perfect forgiveness would be c.

I’m not sure that we are “truly” capable of c, however, perhaps the “best” we can do…is:

d.) Keeping no record of wrongs in my words and deeds, while we attempt to keep no record in our thoughts.

Unlike God, I don’t know how to “blot out” offenses. Maybe we can come up with a pill for it?😉

Chuck
Socrates4Jesus said:
Thank you, Chuck. 🙂

I should ask you the same question i asked Guano, as he appears to have left for the moment. Would you say that forgiveness is:(a) Keeping no record of wrongs in my thoughts, but keeping a record of wrongs in my words and deeds?

or

(b) Keeping no record of wrongs in my thoughts and words, but keeping a record of wrongs with my actions?

or

(c) Keeping no record of wrongs in my thoughts, words and deeds?
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clmowry said:
Perfect forgiveness would be c.

I’m not sure that we are “truly” capable of c, however, perhaps the “best” we can do…is:

d.) Keeping no record of wrongs in my words and deeds, while we attempt to keep no record in our thoughts.

Unlike God, I don’t know how to “blot out” offenses. Maybe we can come up with a pill for it?😉

Chuck
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Chuck:

Is there ever a time when it is OK to love with our words but not with our actions? Lets look at the example you gave of loving the poor. What does St. John say?

If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him? Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth.(1 John 3:17-18)St. James also agrees:

What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, “Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.(James 2:14-17)If it is wrong to love those who need our possessions with merely our thoughts and words, can we sincerely say it is right to love those who need our forgiveness with merely our thoughts and words? Should not our words of forgiveness be accompanied by actions that demonstrate the truth of our words?
 
Perhaps it will help to look at St. Paul’s list and see if there is any instance where one might love a person with thought and words but not with deeds:

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails.(1 Corinthians 13:4-8) Lets look at each one of these acts of love and see whether it is good to say we love and yet not show it by our actions:
  • If i were to say i’m patient, but what i do is impatient, my actions would prove me to be a liar.
  • If i were to say kind words, but treat a person in an unkind way, my actions would prove me to be a liar.
  • If i were to say i do not envy, yet what i do proves i actually do envy, my actions would prove me a liar.
  • If i say i am not proud, but what i do proves i am arrogant, my actions prove me a liar.
  • If i say i am not self seeking, but what i do is selfish, my actions prove me a liar.
  • If i say i am not easily angered, but i quickly lose my temper, my actions prove me a liar.
  • If i say i do not delight in evil, but i approve of those who commit all kinds of sins in the movies and shows i watch, my actions prove me a liar.
  • If i say i rejoice in the truth, but i live the life of a hypocrite, my actions prove me a liar.
  • If i say i always trust someone, but i will not allow her to take have any position of responsibility, my actions prove me a liar.
    In every case, if i do not demonstrate my love by my actions, i prove myself a liar. How can forgiveness, which is an act of love, be any different?
  • Therefore, if i say i forgive someone, yet what i do shows i am still keeping a record of wrongs, my actions, of course, prove me to be a liar.
 
Don’t know if anyone has pointed this out yet, but love (and forgiveness) are acts of will and not necessarily of feelings.

I can’t wish someone harm, or plot their demise, but I must forgive the wrongdoing (sometimes an act of sheer will–certainly not of feeling) and pray to GOD that I want for that person what HE wants for that person. Sometimes, this is not easy. We are human (surprise, surprise, surprise.) God knows that better than anyone.

My husband’s brother literally stole my husband’s inheritance. Sounds quite biblical, doesn’t it? This happened three years ago. My husband has gone from being absolutely livid (I was right in there with him,) to praying that his brother learns to live within God’s will. My husband still feels some anger, but he no longer wants vengeance. My brother-in-law, doesn’t want our forgiveness and certainly avoids us (guilt, maybe?) Our priest told us we don’t have to be lovey-dovey-best-buddies. That is not practical or likely at this point. We don’t live anywhere near him, and in any case, we never saw much of him even before my mother-in-law died. But, our priest warned that we must continue to pray for him, not wish him ill, and if he ever seeks a rapprochement with my husband, we must accept it as lovingly as we are able. Here again, this would take an act of the will.
 
There is a word for a person whose actions do not agree with his words. Jesus used the word to describe His enemies. It is the word hypocrite. So we read in St. Matthew’s gospel:

Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: "The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.
(Matthew 23:1-3)

St. Paul also teaches that “love must be sincere” (Romans 12:9), as does St. Peter, who wrote:

Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for your brothers, love one another deeply, from the heart.
(1 Peter 1:22)
and
Therefore, rid yourselves of all malice and all deceit, hypocrisy, envy, and slander of every kind.
(1 Peter 2:1)

These witnesses all agree that love (including the act of love of forgiveness) must be sincere and without hypocrisy. We must not be like the enemies of Christ who said one thing with their words and did the opposite with their deeds. If we say we forgive, we must show we forgive. Our actions must be those that demonstrate we genuinely love and keep no record of wrongs.
 
udoc89 said:
Don’t know if anyone has pointed this out yet, but love (and forgiveness) are acts of will and not necessarily of feelings.

I can’t wish someone harm, or plot their demise, but I must forgive the wrongdoing (sometimes an act of sheer will–certainly not of feeling) and pray to GOD that I want for that person what HE wants for that person. Sometimes, this is not easy. We are human (surprise, surprise, surprise.) God knows that better than anyone.

My husband’s brother literally stole my husband’s inheritance. Sounds quite biblical, doesn’t it? This happened three years ago. My husband has gone from being absolutely livid (I was right in there with him,) to praying that his brother learns to live within God’s will. My husband still feels some anger, but he no longer wants vengeance. My brother-in-law, doesn’t want our forgiveness and certainly avoids us (guilt, maybe?) Our priest told us we don’t have to be lovey-dovey-best-buddies. That is not practical or likely at this point. We don’t live anywhere near him, and in any case, we never saw much of him even before my mother-in-law died. But, our priest warned that we must continue to pray for him, not wish him ill, and if he ever seeks a rapprochement with my husband, we must accept it as lovingly as we are able. Here again, this would take an act of the will.
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I have been betrayed by others in different, but perhaps no less painful, ways, Udoc. Has your husband’s brother ever repented of his wrong? Has he ever admitted it was wrong to steal and given back some of what he took? If not, do you think he has the right to expect you to keep no record of the wrongs he has done?
 
🤷

Q. 10. If i say i forgive with my words but do not show i am keeping no record of wrongs with my actions, am i being sincere or a hypocrite?
 
No, my husband’s brother (an athiest, incidentally) has little regard for any of the remaining members of his family–my husband and their sister. He told me many years ago, and I didn’t realize his words were prophetic, that he intended to get everything he believed he was entitled to when his parents died. He cares very little what we think of him, and doesn’t seem to want or need our forgiveness. Frankly, I am more concerned with my husband’s well-being at this point. I do not want him to be bitter, and we both know in order to avoid that, he must not hate his brother. He has come a long way, but still has some work to do. God is good. God is patient.

Have you ever read what Jimmy Akin has to say on the subject of forgiving those who are not sorry? You might find it interesting. I think he has a blog.
 
clmowry said:
Yep. the h word.

Chuck
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Yes, Chuck, i agree. It is the word no one wants to be: Hypocrite. No one in his right mind would sincerely say it is ever good to be one.

When you and i decide to forgive and say we forgive, we must show we forgive by doing that which demonstrates we really have kept no record of wrongs. Reason, experience, holy Scripture and the Holy Spirit together tell us this is true.

The next question is, “How do you and i show, by our actions (and not just by what we think and say) that we have truly kept no record of wrongs?”
 
udoc89 said:
No, my husband’s brother (an athiest, incidentally) has little regard for any of the remaining members of his family–my husband and their sister. He told me many years ago, and I didn’t realize his words were prophetic, that he intended to get everything he believed he was entitled to when his parents died. He cares very little what we think of him, and doesn’t seem to want or need our forgiveness. Frankly, I am more concerned with my husband’s well-being at this point. I do not want him to be bitter, and we both know in order to avoid that, he must not hate his brother. He has come a long way, but still has some work to do. God is good. God is patient.

Have you ever read what Jimmy Akin has to say on the subject of forgiving those who are not sorry? You might find it interesting. I think he has a blog.
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Yes Udoc, your husband and you, and every true follower of Jesus should always love as Jesus loved. Isn’t true, however, that you and your husband can love his brother without forgiving him who refuses to repent?

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails.(1 Corinthians 13:4-8) Even if you keep a record of his wrongs, you might still love him by being
  • patient
  • kind
  • not envious
  • not proud
  • not rude
  • unselfish
  • not easily angered
    for example. You both can still love him without forgiving him, don’t you think?
 
Socrates4Jesus said:
Are you saying then, Guano, that i should forgive by:

(a) Keeping no record of wrongs in my thoughts, but keeping a record of wrongs in my words and deeds?

or

(b) Keeping no record of wrongs in my thoughts and words, but keeping a record of wrongs with my actions?

or

(c) Keeping no record of wrongs in my thoughts, words and deeds?
Click to expand...
This is a very good question, Socrates. It is hard for the human mind to grasp the concept of sins being put “as far as the East is from the West.” I am not sure what you mean here by “record”. It would seem to be a ledger, if it is like keeping records in accounting. If that is the case,then no record should be kept. God keeps it on behalf of all. Along the theme of the thread, I agree that forgiveness does not necessarily mean going back to the way things were. Sometimes, wrong actions require that changes be made. A woman may forgive her husband for beating her, for example, but may not put herself in a position for it to happen again.

If you mean by not “keeping a record” that one “forgets” what happened I am not sure this is humanly possible. It is possible to heal from a wound (not hurt or be impaired by it), but there are some things that produce trauma and change the course of life. Child abuse, rape, these grave sins against the body and soul leave lasting effects on a person and “forgetting” may be unhealthy.
Socrates4Jesus said:
Chuck:

Is there ever a time when it is OK to love with our words but not with our actions? Lets look at the example you gave of loving the poor. What does St. John say?

If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him? Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth.(1 John 3:17-18)St. James also agrees:

What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, “Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.(James 2:14-17)If it is wrong to love those who need our possessions with merely our thoughts and words, can we sincerely say it is right to love those who need our forgiveness with merely our thoughts and words? Should not our words of forgiveness be accompanied by actions that demonstrate the truth of our words?
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I think you are quite right, that forgiveness is a matter of the will, but it must be followed by thoughts, words and deeds. We cannot confuse limit setting, however, with lack of forgiveness. A teenager may be forgiven for wrecking the family car, but that does not mean he may be allowed to borrow the car again.
 
If we accept the premise that to forgive with thoughts and words but not deeds makes us hypocrites, that leads us with the next question:

🤷

Q. 11. How do you and i show, by our actions (and not just by what we think and say) that we have truly kept no record of wrongs?
 
guanophore said:
This is a very good question, Socrates. It is hard for the human mind to grasp the concept of sins being put “as far as the East is from the West.” I am not sure what you mean here by “record”. It would seem to be a ledger, if it is like keeping records in accounting. If that is the case,then no record should be kept. God keeps it on behalf of all. Along the theme of the thread, I agree that forgiveness does not necessarily mean going back to the way things were. Sometimes, wrong actions require that changes be made. A woman may forgive her husband for beating her, for example, but may not put herself in a position for it to happen again.

If you mean by not “keeping a record” that one “forgets” what happened I am not sure this is humanly possible. It is possible to heal from a wound (not hurt or be impaired by it), but there are some things that produce trauma and change the course of life. Child abuse, rape, these grave sins against the body and soul leave lasting effects on a person and “forgetting” may be unhealthy.
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Excellent thoughts, Guano! I agree that if we understand what it means to keep no record of wrongs we will understand what it means to forgive.

My guess, which is the best i can give at the moment, is that keeping no record of wrongs requires that i trust. Lets use your example and expand upon it:

Say that the woman divorced the man who beat her. He later says he was wrong to beat her, will never do it again, and has come to his senses and wants her to annul her annulment. Lets say she replies, “I have forgiven you, but I can never trust you again. I will not become married to you once more.”

The man might call her a hypocrite, saying, “You have not forgiven me. You are still keeping a record of the wrongs I have committed!”

Would he be correct to say this?
 
Socrates4Jesus said:
Yes Udoc, your husband and you, and every true follower of Jesus should always love as Jesus loved. Isn’t true, however, that you and your husband can love his brother without forgiving him who refuses to repent?

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails.(1 Corinthians 13:4-8) Even if you keep a record of his wrongs, you might still love him by being
  • patient
  • kind
  • not envious
  • not proud
  • not rude
  • unselfish
  • not easily angered
    for example. You both can still love him without forgiving him, don’t you think?
Click to expand...
It may be possible to act in a loving manner without forgiving. Difficult, but not impossible. But it is irrelevant. We are commanded to forgive, whether the offender is repentant, or not.
Socrates4Jesus said:
Excellent thoughts, Guano! I agree that if we understand what it means to keep no record of wrongs we will understand what it means to forgive.

My guess, which is the best i can give at the moment, is that keeping no record of wrongs requires that i trust. Lets use your example and expand upon it:

Say that the woman divorced the man who beat her. He later says he was wrong to beat her, will never do it again, and has come to his senses and wants her to annul her annulment. Lets say she replies, “I have forgiven you, but I can never trust you again. I will not become married to you once more.”

The man might call her a hypocrite, saying, “You have not forgiven me. You are still keeping a record of the wrongs I have committed!”

Would he be correct to say this?
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That depends again on what you mean by “record”. If by that a ledger of debts is owed, then possibly. One can change one’s style of interaction with another even after the debt has been forgiven. If my friend borrows $ 500 from me, and does not pay it back, I may kiss that $ good bye (not hold a record) but I may not make him another loan.
 
guanophore said:
It may be possible to act in a loving manner without forgiving. Difficult, but not impossible. But it is irrelevant. We are commanded to forgive, whether the offender is repentant, or not…
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Whether Jesus taught to forgive unconditionally, or whether he taught us to require conditions, such as repentance, is what we are considering, Guano. Is there any time when love must be conditional? The answer, i believe, is yes.

Take trust, for example. St. Paul tells us that “love…always trusts” (1 Corinthians 13). I’m sure you and i agree that we must always trust those who have earned our trust. To fail to trust those who deserve our trust is not loving, and restoration of relationships might be impossible without the type of love called trust.

Is there ever a time when we should not love someone by trusting them? and are there conditions people must meet before we should trust them again? The answer to both questions, i think you will agree, is yes.

Take the example of the wife beater. Lets say he asks his battered wife who wants to divorce him to trust him again. She wants to trust him and reconcile their relationship, so she asks, “Are you going to beat me again?”

“Beat you?” he says. “No. If you get out of line i’ll just slit your throat!” and he pulls out of his jacket an ominous looking hunting knife. Should she trust him again? Of course not! Why not? Because he has failed to repent.

Now, forgiveness, as Chuck and i agree, is only that kind of love that keeps no record of wrongs. Does not trust require that the one who trusts no longer holds the wrongs against the person who wants to be trusted? I believe it does.

The question then that should be asked is this:

Is it possible to forgive a person without trusting him?
 
🤷

Q. 12. Since forgiveness is keeping no record of wrongs, and trust requires that we do not hold wrongs against someone, is it possible to forgive a person without trusting him?
 
Socrates4Jesus said:
Yes Udoc, your husband and you, and every true follower of Jesus should always love as Jesus loved. Isn’t true, however, that you and your husband can love his brother without forgiving him who refuses to repent?

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails.(1 Corinthians 13:4-8) Even if you keep a record of his wrongs, you might still love him by being
  • patient
  • kind
  • not envious
  • not proud
  • not rude
  • unselfish
  • not easily angered
    for example. You both can still love him without forgiving him, don’t you think?
Click to expand...
No, I don’t. Frankly, we are not that good at acting. If we are able to be patient, kind, not envious, not proud, not rude, unselfish, and not easily angered by my brother-in-law, then we have forgiven him. These are concrete assurances our forgiveness is not just a matter of words or a grudging obligation. (“God says I have to forgive you…”) They are the holy, practical, and substantive manifestations of what we profess with our mouths–of faith in action. They are the exact opposite of hypocrisy. Again, I say forgiveness is (like love) an act of the will. Because I am human, I really struggle with this. Frequent visits to our Adoration Chapel, the Sacrament of Reconciliation, and the Sacrifice of the Mass are necessary. Thank God that as a Catholic I have these amazing resources.
 
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