Forgiveness FAQ

[DrPiano]

(1) Forgiveness is an act of love.(2) St. Paul lists several acts of love in 1 Corinthians 13. (3) In 1 Corinthians 13, he says love is patient, kind, etc.(4) All of the acts of love he lists can be shown to someone who has done nothing for which he needs to be forgiven, except one.(5) The only act of love he lists that cannot be shown to someone who has done nothing for which he needs to be forgiven is to show love that “keeps no record of wrongs”.(6) Therefore, each of the other acts of love are not forgiveness. Rather, they are some other way of loving. Conclusion: The only act of love that is forgiveness is the love that “keeps no record of wrongs”.The only possible way the conclusion can be wrong is if one of the premises is false or the premises together do not support the conclusion. Please tell me:

• Which of the six premises is not true and why is it false? or
• How do the premises fail to support the conclusion? or
• Is there a 7th premise you can add that will cause the logical argument to lead to a different conclusion?

I’d say your problem lies in going from (3) - St. Paul lists several acts of love to (6) because your assumption is that 1 Corinthians 13 is an exhaustive list of acts of love. Rather, I’d say forgiveness is an act of love that encompasses several of those acts described in 1 Corinthians 13. Thus forgiveness is an act which includes having patience with the person who has wronged you, being kind in praying for good for that person, not being proud in insisting that the other person is the only one wrong or must be the first one to admit his/her mistakes, not being rude to that person, not being self-seeking in regards to that person (ie - not trying to bring about your own vengeance or exact revenge), not being easily angered by what that person has done, not keeping a list of every act that person has committed against you to bring up in an argument or hold against that person for the purpose of staying angry, not delighting in evil things that might happen to the person (or wishing that they happen on that person) and rejoicing when that person finds the Truth (and praying that they do find the Truth, regardless of whether or not you reconcile), protecting that person (where possible) from future occasions of sin or hurting you, trusting that person to the extent that that person is capable of handling trust (ie - if a person has stolen my money, I might forgive them and reconcile with them but not leave my purse alone with that person), hoping that he/she will continue to grow in the Grace and Knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ (and leave their sin if they are continuing to sin), and persevering in prayer while being open to reconciliation when that person has come to a state that allows that.

Note - I did not include every piece in 1 Corinthians 13 as I could not figure out how envying or boasting might apply to the situation. And, as I said, perhaps forgiveness is an act of love that encompasses multiple aspects of the non-exhaustive list that St. Paul provides as those aspects interface with a person who has hurt you.

Incidentally, I was wondering if you would say that in loving another person, one is required to do all those acts of love as circumstances allow?

Also, you have not yet responded to my postulation that offering or giving forgiveness is equal to forgiving but NOT equal to receiving that forgiveness. Nor have you responded to my postulation that God offers forgiveness (forgives) us without condition but that it is us who rejects that forgiveness (by not repenting and admitting that what we did was a sin) and therefore spend eternity apart from him through our own choice.

 

[trogiah]

*]What is forgiveness?
*]How do Jesus’ words in Matthew 18:15-17 describe forgiveness?

(Computers being what they are, I had to click reply before I could answer the two questions )

Forgiveness: The decision to let go of any feelings of bitterness, anger, resentment, etc. towards another person (or towards God). Presumably those feelings came from certain actions of those persons or of God.

The words of Matthew 18 are not primarily about forgiveness. They are about reconciliation. For reconciliation to happen, two people have to both come to some type of agreement about who did what to whom, both have to recognize that one person (at least) was hurt, one has to be willing to ask for forgiveness and the other has to be willing to give it. Forgiveness is part of the picture but not the whole picture.

You use the phrase “keeping a record of wrongs” to describe a situation that is more like “pointing out an ongoing wrong.” or maybe it is "pointing out an ongoing difference of opinion that gets in the way of ordinary trusting relationships.

When one person wrongs another - Lets take something simple like, suppose one person broke and item that belonged to another,) The person who owned the item says “you broke it you should do something to replace it.” The person who broke it might say "you shouldn’t have left it there in the first place, it is not my fault that it broke.

Now the person whose item was broken could decide to let it go, forgive the other person, and not hold feelings of bitterness towards the person who broke it. But the person whose item was broken would probably retain the thought that this other person didn’t have the same regard for property that he or she did. Retaining that thought might be considered keeping a “record of wrongs” but it could be simply a recognition that people are different and have different view of such things.

Full reconciliation between the two people would probably not be possibile until they came to some agreement about proper respect for other peoples property. Maybe the first person does need to change his or her view of things and not leave out things that can be broken. The discussion could go on at length and involve lawyers and arbitrators. But full reconciliation would not be possible unless agreement is reached about the whole situation.

Jesus seems to believe that achieving reconciliation is worth substantial effort, and at the same time he recognizes that one person can not achieve reconciliation with another unilaterally.

However, one person can always forgive another, no matter what the other person does.

Jim

 

[JaneFrances]

Jane:

I know what you believe (that mercy is not identical to forgiveness) but i do not know why you believe this. I’m not sure what you mean when you write the word mercy and when you write the word forgiveness. If i were to give you an example of mercy shown without forgiving, you might say i’m wrongs, when the reality is i misunderstand. However, if i knew how you define mercy and forgiveness, then i will know how to comply with your request.

So, before i give you the example you want, will you do something for me? Please tell me:

• How do you define forgiveness? and
• How do you define mercy? and
• How is forgiveness different from mercy?

There is no need for you to know or understand why I believe mercy is not identical to forgiveness in order to answer my simple question. I believe your focus on this detail, which I readily clarified in my edit, will only serve as a distraction. You need only answer the question according to your understanding and definitions, which I am sure you are perfectly capable of accessing for this purpose.

To remind you, the question is as follows:

As you are not God, having all knowledge and right judgment of a person’s heart and mind, how do you determine the sufficiency of another person’s repentance and/or culpability enough to withhold your forgiveness from them?

Of course, I understand if you are unwilling to do this.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

I’d say your problem lies in going from (3) - St. Paul lists several acts of love to (6) because your assumption is that 1 Corinthians 13 is an exhaustive list of acts of love. Rather, I’d say forgiveness is an act of love that encompasses several of those acts described in 1 Corinthians 13. …

You make a good point, Doc, which helps me see that premise (6) is actually a conclusion. Your line of reasoning (i think) is that premises 1 - 5 do not support Conclusion 1.

(1) Forgiveness is an act of love.(2) St. Paul lists several acts of love in 1 Corinthians 13. (3) In 1 Corinthians 13, he says love is patient, kind, etc.(4) All of the acts of love he lists can be shown to someone who has done nothing for which he needs to be forgiven, except one.(5) The only act of love he lists that cannot be shown to someone who has done nothing for which he needs to be forgiven is to show love that “keeps no record of wrongs”.Therefore

Conclusion 1: Each of the other acts of love are not forgiveness. Rather, they are some other way of loving. Conclusion 2: The only act of love that is forgiveness is the love that “keeps no record of wrongs”.

I think, then, i should amend my original logical argument this way1) Forgiveness is an act of love.(2) St. Paul lists several acts of love in 1 Corinthians 13. (3) In 1 Corinthians 13, he says love is patient, kind, etc.(4) All of the acts of love he lists can be shown to someone who has done nothing for which he needs to be forgiven, except one.(5) The only act of love he lists that cannot be shown to someone who has done nothing for which he needs to be forgiven is to show love that “keeps no record of wrongs”.

(6b) The one act of love that is essential and necessary to forgiveness is to keep no record of wrongs.

(7b) A person who loves by forgiving will also love by other acts such as being kind, being patient, and so on.

ThereforeConclusion 1b: Forgiveness is impossible without keeping no record of wrongs. Conclusion 2b: Forgiveness is at least that love that “keeps no record of wrongs”.I hope you will find this line of reasoning more reasonable. You see. What you are calling forgiveness, i’m calling love in other forms. I would not call being kind forgiveness; i’d call it kindness. I can be kind to someone who has done nothing wrong to me for which i should forgive her. I would not call being gentle forgiveness. I’d call it gentleness. I can be gentle to someone who has done nothing wrong to me for which i should forgive her.

I think you might agree with me, then, that not all love is forgiveness, even though all forgiveness is love. I think i might agree with you that St. Paul’s list is not exhaustive. We might say to him that he should have added “love is giving” or “love seeks no revenge” or “love is merciful” and he might agree with us. It seems you and i both agree that a person who forgives will also love the one forgiven in other ways, such as being kind, patient, etc. You call it forgiveness; i call it other acts of love. Perhaps mercy might be a better word for you to use than forgiveness?

I’d like to address your other questions more directly, but i think i should first understand what you mean when you say forgiveness includes keeping no record of wrongs. Will you explain exactly what it means to love someone in words and deeds that “keeps no record of wrongs”?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

… “If you do not forgive others… neither will your heavenly Father forgive you…” J Christ

Philthy:

Do you have the book and chapter where i might find the quote so i can read it in context?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

(Computers being what they are, I had to click reply before I could answer the two questions )

Forgiveness: The decision to let go of any feelings of bitterness, anger, resentment, etc. towards another person (or towards God). Presumably those feelings came from certain actions of those persons or of God. …

Jim:

What you have just given me is not a definition of forgiveness, it is a definition of mercy.
mer·cy /ˈmɜrhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngsi/ Spelled Pronunciationmur-see] 1. leniency and compassion shown toward offenders by a person or agency charged with administering justice; “he threw himself on the mercy of the court” [syn: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/clemency”]clemency] 2. a disposition to be kind and forgiving; “in those days a wife had to depend on the mercifulness of her husband” [syn: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/mercifulness”]mercifulness] [ant: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/mercilessness”]mercilessness] 3. the feeling that motivates compassion [syn: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/mercifulness”]mercifulness] 4. something for which to be thankful; “it was a mercy we got out alive” 5. alleviation of distress; showing great kindness toward the distressed; “distributing food and clothing to the flood victims was an act of mercy” Compare this to the definitions of forgiveness:for·give /fərˈgɪv/Spelled Pronunciationfor-giv]1.to grant pardon for or remission of (an offense, debt, etc.); absolve. 2.to give up all claim on account of; remit (a debt, obligation, etc.). 3.to grant pardon to (a person). 4.to cease to feel resentment against: *to forgive one’s enemies. *5.to cancel an indebtedness or liability of: *to forgive the interest owed on a loan. **–verb (used without object) *6.to pardon an offense or an offender. Lets look at the first definition given for both words: What would you say is the difference between being lenient (i.e., to show mercy) and granting a pardon (i.e., to forgive)?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

There is no need for you to know or understand why I believe mercy is not identical to forgiveness in order to answer my simple question. I believe your focus on this detail, which I readily clarified in my edit, will only serve as a distraction. You need only answer the question according to your understanding and definitions, which I am sure you are perfectly capable of accessing for this purpose. …

Jane:

Do you believe all sincere Catholics should follow the commands of the first Pope?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Q. 18. What is the difference between showing mercy and forgiving?

 

[trogiah]

Jim:

What you have just given me is not a definition of forgiveness, it is a definition of mercy.mer·cy /ˈmɜrhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngsi/ Spelled Pronunciationmur-see] 1. leniency and compassion shown toward offenders by a person or agency charged with administering justice; “he threw himself on the mercy of the court” [syn: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/clemency”]clemency

] 2. a disposition to be kind and forgiving; “in those days a wife had to depend on the mercifulness of her husband” [syn: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/mercifulness”]mercifulness] [ant: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/mercilessness”]mercilessness] 3. the feeling that motivates compassion [syn: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/mercifulness”]mercifulness] 4. something for which to be thankful; “it was a mercy we got out alive” 5. alleviation of distress; showing great kindness toward the distressed; “distributing food and clothing to the flood victims was an act of mercy” Compare this to the definitions of forgiveness:for·give /fərˈgɪv/Spelled Pronunciationfor-giv]1.to grant pardon for or remission of (an offense, debt, etc.); absolve. 2.to give up all claim on account of; remit (a debt, obligation, etc.). 3.to grant pardon to (a person). 4.to cease to feel resentment against: *to forgive one’s enemies. *5.to cancel an indebtedness or liability of: *to forgive the interest owed on a loan. **–verb (used without object) *6.to pardon an offense or an offender. Lets look at the first definition given for both words: What would you say is the difference between being lenient (i.e., to show mercy) and granting a pardon (i.e., to forgive)?

Reading the definitions you have given me I would say that my definition of forgiveness was virtually identical to #2 and #4 of your referenced definition of forgiveness.

To answer your question about being lenient versus granting pardon, the granting of a pardon seems to imply that a pardon was asked for where as being lenient requires less of a request from the person to whom you are being lenient.

On a different note, you ask profound, far-reaching, and important questions but then sometimes seem to get stuck on the parsing of words in the answers.(as another poster recently noticed) I can’t help wondering, what is it you are looking for?

But that’s ok, sometimes I am not sure myself about what I am looking for.

peace

Jim

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

…To remind you, the question is as follows:

Quote:

As you are not God, having all knowledge and right judgment of a person’s heart and mind, how do you determine the sufficiency of another person’s repentance and/or culpability enough to withhold your forgiveness from them?
Of course, I understand if you are unwilling to do this.

Jane:

I’ll answer your question if you answer mine!

Do you believe all sincere Catholics should follow the commands of the first Pope?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Reading the definitions you have given me I would say that my definition of forgiveness was virtually identical to #2 and #4 of your referenced definition of forgiveness.

To answer your question about being lenient versus granting pardon, the granting of a pardon seems to imply that a pardon was asked for where as being lenient requires less of a request from the person to whom you are being lenient.

On a different note, you ask profound, far-reaching, and important questions but then sometimes seem to get stuck on the parsing of words in the answers.(as another poster recently noticed) I can’t help wondering, what is it you are looking for?

But that’s ok, sometimes I am not sure myself about what I am looking for.

peace

Jim

That for which i am looking for is that for which Socrates was looking (as his quote below each of my replies implies). Wisdom is probably something i will never attain on this side of eternity. Sometimes i ask questions having no idea what the answers will be. Other times i ask questions thinking i know what the answers will be only to be surprised by something different. Other times i ask questions knowing full well what the answers will be.

However, i will try to get as close to truth as i can by asking as many questions as i can. In this way i believe, as Socrates believed, that i will get closer to God. Didn’t Jesus say He was the truth?

Regarding definitions 2 and 4 of the word forgive, i would agree that this is what forgiveness is, but it is not all that it is. To forgive also means to pardon. This is what Jesus meant, i believe, when He said"So watch yourselves. If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, ‘I repent,’ forgive him."(Luke 17:3-4)What do you think it means, Jim, to pardon someone for sins committed against you?

 

[DrPiano]

(again, I’ve split the post into 2 parts):

I’d like to address your other questions more directly, but i think i should first understand what you mean when you say forgiveness includes keeping no record of wrongs. Will you explain exactly what it means to love someone in words and deeds that “keeps no record of wrongs”?

Socrates,

I have explained already what I mean when I say forgiveness includes keeping no record of wrongs. Also, what I mean when I say it has no bearing on the questions and postulations I have posed to you - you don’t need my answers to be able to answer yourself. But I’ll go ahead and explain it anyway.

Keeping a record of wrongs is keeping a list (mentally or physically) of things that another has done to hurt you for the purposes of bringing those wrongs up later (in arguments, discussions, or other such contexts) in order to hurt that person or make him/her look bad (or some other such similar circumstance). Examples from real life

1. I had a friend/acquaintance in college (for simplicity, lets call him JV) who literally kept a physical list of friends he had IMed and who had not responded, when it occurred, etc. etc. Later, he brought that up in an argument to one of those friends (again, call him AP) to “prove” to him that AP was not a good friend at all, that AP didn’t care at all about JM.
2. Another person in my life (LS) has kept a mental list of things her brother did to her (more or less normal sibling stuff) when they were kids and has refused to reconcile with him until he remembers every single thing he did to her (on his own, without her help) and apologize
3. in a slightly more innocuous issue, my sister (my brother and I have been guilty of it too), when arguing with my mother will bring up some grievance she has/had with my mother from a month or a year ago. Again, she is keeping a record (less concrete in this case) of wrongs that my mother has committed and pulling it out when it suits her purposes.

And now I repeat an example where I have forgiven, and not kept a record of wrongs but not reconciled due to continuing differences of opinion:

For an example of where I have forgiven but not reconciled: I had a friend (male) who I started dating several years ago. … He said (and wrote) some very very hurtful things that both pained me deeply and made me very angry. When I had not gotten to the point of forgiving him, I held on to all the hurtful emails he sent me and reminded myself of every hurtful phrase that he used. … Since then, despite the fact that his only “apologies” were more hurtful words masked as apologies, I have let go of that record of wrongs I kept. I no longer hold onto the emails. I no longer rehearse the phrases he used. I don’t remember what he said that hurt me. I have given all of that to God and now I pray for God’s grace to illuminate his life. However, we still have not reconciled. Why? Not because I have “not forgiven him” (which I have), not because I am “keeping a record of his wrongs” (which I am not), not because I “don’t love him” (I do - at least in the way I ought to love my fellow human being and fellow Christian), but because he has no wish to reconcile

If I were to run into this person at a social function (and it has happened) due to the fact that we still run in the same circles, and if we were to get into a discussion about something, and if we were to disagree upon the subject (not uncommon, we’re both opinionated about a lot of things and enjoy discussion of different opinions), I would not bring up those past wrongs, even if we still had not reconciled yet (even if we still were not able to talk about personal issues or spend lengthy amounts of time together or other such “friendship” activities). I am not keeping a record of wrongs, despite the fact that he has never apologized for whatever it was that he said to me.

(to be continued…)

 

[DrPiano]

(Part 2)

I think trogiah says it well when he says:

You use the phrase “keeping a record of wrongs” to describe a situation that is more like “pointing out an ongoing wrong.” or maybe it is "pointing out an ongoing difference of opinion that gets in the way of ordinary trusting relationships.

You’ve cited Matthew 23 as an example of Jesus keeping a record of wrongs. I would say that Jesus is doing 2 things here, neither of which are keeping a record of wrongs

1. Jesus is warning his disciples against the general attitudes and actions of the Pharisees - their legalistic approach to holy living (complete with generalized examples of what it might look like) and their sanctimonious, holier-than-thou approach to others (again, with generalized examples of what it might look like).
2. Jesus is lovingly warning the Pharisees about how hypocritical their actions look. A passage such as this (Matthew 23),

"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.

points again to their nitpicky observance of the laws that they have picked and chosen to be “important” while neglecting the greater principles that underly them (example in these verses is nitpickingly giving 10% of every income to the Temple while neglecting to even see the poor and needy around them - they neglected the generosity, justice, mercy, and acknowledgement of God’s faithfulness to them that the tithing law they expanded was designed to teach them). Jesus is doing this lovingly (albeit sternly), trying to bring them back to God.

37"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. 38Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’" (Matthew 23:37-39)

Now for my questions (again):

Incidentally, I was wondering if you would say that in loving another person, one is required to do all those acts of love as circumstances allow?

Also, you have not yet responded to my postulation that offering or giving forgiveness is equal to forgiving but NOT equal to receiving that forgiveness. Nor have you responded to my postulation that God offers forgiveness (forgives) us without condition but that it is us who rejects that forgiveness (by not repenting and admitting that what we did was a sin) and therefore spend eternity apart from him through our own choice.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

… I have explained already what I mean when I say forgiveness includes keeping no record of wrongs. …Keeping a record of wrongs is keeping a list (mentally or physically) of things that another has done to hurt you for the purposes of bringing those wrongs up later (in arguments, discussions, or other such contexts) in order to hurt that person or make him/her look bad (or some other such similar circumstance). …

Doc:

What you appear to be describing is the antithesis of revenge. That is, when St. Paul says that “love…keeps no record of wrongs” you take him to mean “love…does not seek revenge”.

Am i understanding you correctly?

 

[DrPiano]

Doc:

What you appear to be describing is the antithesis of revenge. That is, when St. Paul says that “love…keeps no record of wrongs” you take him to mean “love…does not seek revenge”.

Am i understanding you correctly?

No you aren’t.

Since you seem to enjoy dictionary definitions (excerpted from Merriam Webster Dictionary:

keep. 3c: save, reserve 4 a : to retain in one’s possession or power
record . (Etymology: Middle English, literally, to recall)
2a : something that recalls or relates past events b : an official document that records the acts of a public body or officer c : an authentic official copy of a document deposited with a legally designated officer d : the official copy of the papers used in a law case
3a (2) a collection of related items of information (as in a database) treated as a unit
wrong: **1 a **: an injurious, unfair, or unjust act : action or conduct inflicting harm without due provocation or just cause b : a violation or invasion of the legal rights of another;
**2 **: something wrong, immoral, or unethical; especially : principles, practices, or conduct contrary to justice, goodness, equity, or law
**3 **: the state, position, or fact of being or doing wrong: as a : the state of being mistaken or incorrect b : the state of being guilty

Thus a synthesis of these definitions (note - it matches my own, previously given) would be to save, reserve, or retain in one’s possession or power something that recalls or relates past events (a collection of related items of information treated as a unit) about an injurious, unfair, or unjust act, something wrong, immoral, or unethical, etc. etc. about another person (one could even say about ones-self as many of us have had to learn how to forgive ourselves).

Regarding definitions in general - even in our language today, context determines the definition of a word SO a word in a given context does NOT necessarily mean all of its possible ascribed meanings. Example: “I ran a meeting yesterday.” This does NOT mean that I proceeded at a pace faster than a walk during the meeting yesterday. Nor does it mean about 75-95% of the possible definitions of the past tense of run found here. In the same way, forgiveness does not have to mean all of the same things in the same context. Quite frequently we only mean one of the possible dictionary definitions of the word.

You have asked many of us to tell you our definition of forgiveness so that we can proceed on the same page. When we do, you proceed to criticize our definition of the word or ascribe to our definitions things that we did not say. It is certainly frustrating to have words placed in your mouth.

Now- again, I’ve answered your questions. Please do me the same favor and answer mine.

Incidentally, I was wondering if you would say that in loving another person, one is required to do all those acts of love as circumstances allow?

Also, you have not yet responded to my postulation that offering or giving forgiveness is equal to forgiving but NOT equal to receiving that forgiveness. Nor have you responded to my postulation that God offers forgiveness (forgives) us without condition but that it is us who rejects that forgiveness (by not repenting and admitting that what we did was a sin) and therefore spend eternity apart from him through our own choice.

 

[JaneFrances]

Jane:

Do you believe all sincere Catholics should follow the commands of the first Pope?

Yes, I believe that all Christians should, indeed, follow the instruction of St. Peter as follows (from 1 Peter 3)

8Finally, all of you, live in harmony with one another; be sympathetic, love as brothers, be compassionate and humble. 9Do not repay evil with evil or insult with insult, but with blessing, because to this you were called so that you may inherit a blessing. 10For,
“Whoever would love life
and see good days
must keep his tongue from evil
and his lips from deceitful speech.
11He must turn from evil and do good;
he must seek peace and pursue it.
12For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous
and his ears are attentive to their prayer,
but the face of the Lord is against those who do evil.”[a]
13Who is going to harm you if you are eager to do good? 14But even if you should suffer for what is right, you are blessed. “Do not fear what they fear**; do not be frightened.”[c] 15But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. **Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, 16keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander. ****17It is better, if it is God’s will, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil. 18For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19through whom[d] also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge[e] of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.

Given the context of this passage, to my knowledge, you have not asked me in this thread why I suffer joyfully and live in the hope of the Lord Jesus Christ. I will happily respond if asked, but perhaps this is more appropriate in a new thread.

Instead, I believe your questions, in this thread, have focused on the conditions which may exist that would allow you to withhold your forgiveness from someone who sins against you. I believe that I, among others, have readily answered the questions you posed.

Respectfully, I understand your hesitance to answer my simple question:

As you are not God, having all knowledge and right judgment of a person’s heart and mind, how do you determine the sufficiency of another person’s repentance and/or culpability enough to withhold your forgiveness from them?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Yes, I believe that all Christians should, indeed, follow the instruction of St. Peter as follows (from 1 Peter 3)

Given the context of this passage, to my knowledge, you have not asked me in this thread why I suffer joyfully and live in the hope of the Lord Jesus Christ. I will happily respond if asked, but perhaps this is more appropriate in a new thread.

Instead, I believe your questions, in this thread, have focused on the conditions which may exist that would allow you to withhold your forgiveness from someone who sins against you. I believe that I, among others, have readily answered the questions you posed.

Respectfully, I understand your hesitance to answer my simple question:Quote:As you are not God, having all knowledge and right judgment of a person’s heart and mind, how do you determine the sufficiency of another person’s repentance and/or culpability enough to withhold your forgiveness from them?

Yes, you should “always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect” as St. Peter instructs. I suppose i should do the same, or i would prove myself a hypocrite!

I believe your question was asked by at least one other person. I must have answered the other person’s question after you took a leave from the discussion. The answer i gave went something like this:

It is true that i cannot pretend to know for certain if someone has repented or whether someone truly does not understand that she has done wrong. Unlike God, i cannot read a person’s mind. I can, however, listen to her words and observer her actions. Jesus tells me:

15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. (Matthew 7)By fruit, i take Jesus to mean the words and deeds of those who claim to be followers of Himself. I would make a judgement call based on the what a person says and does.

“But what if the person says she has repented and is lying to you?” a skeptic might ask. “How will you know whether to forgive or not then, smarty pants!” In that case, i suppose i would follow St. Paul’s advice:But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.(Romans 14:23)As a wiser man than myself by the name of Chuck Smith said, “It is always better to err on the side of grace.” If i had any reasonable doubt as to whether the person has honestly repented, or if i was uncertain at all whether she knew what she was doing was wrong, i would forgive. I would pardon her for her sin against me. I would neither bring it up again nor hold it against her in any way. I would treat her as if she had never sinned against me at all. My forgiveness (which is the same as to pardon) would be complete and absolute to the best of the ability that the Holy Spirit would see fit to give me.

However, if a person did wrong, and agrees that what she did was wrong, and tells me in no uncertain terms that she does not give a flying duck, well, i would take that as grounds for having a no reasonable doubt that she was responsible for her sin and she had no intentions of changing her behavior and would gladly commit the same sin against me, if she could. ’

To such a person i would show mercy. The ways i would show mercy is i would not seek revenge. Rather, i’d be patient with and kind to her. I would also show mercy by not envying her freedom to sin, and not comparing myself to her by boasting about my own good conduct to others. I would not be proud and treat her rudely. I would even try not to put my own needs above her own nor easily become angry with her. In mercy i would not delight in any evil that comes as a result of her actions, but i would rejoice in the truth that “there but for the grace of God go i.” I would always protect her, always hope that she will come to her senses and escape the trap of the devil who has taken her captive to do his will, and repent. In mercy i hope i would always persevere in, and never fail in, my prayers and love for her.

I would, however, keep a record of the wrongs she has committed. I would not pardon her for the sins she had committed for which she refuses to repent. I would not trust her again until she does repent, and prove her repentance by her deeds.

​

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

No you aren’t.

Since you seem to enjoy dictionary definitions (excerpted from Merriam Webster Dictionary:

Quote:

keep. 3c: save, reserve 4 a : to retain in one’s possession or power

record . (Etymology: Middle English, literally, to recall)

2a : something that recalls or relates past events b : an official document that records the acts of a public body or officer c : an authentic official copy of a document deposited with a legally designated officer d : the official copy of the papers used in a law case

3a (2) a collection of related items of information (as in a database) treated as a unit

wrong: **1 a **: an injurious, unfair, or unjust act : action or conduct inflicting harm without due provocation or just cause b : a violation or invasion of the legal rights of another;

**2 **: something wrong, immoral, or unethical; especially : principles, practices, or conduct contrary to justice, goodness, equity, or law

**3 **: the state, position, or fact of being or doing wrong: as a : the state of being mistaken or incorrect b : the state of being guilty
Thus a synthesis of these definitions (note - it matches my own, previously given) would be to save, reserve, or retain in one’s possession or power something that recalls or relates past events (a collection of related items of information treated as a unit) about an injurious, unfair, or unjust act, something wrong, immoral, or unethical, etc. etc. about another person (one could even say about ones-self as many of us have had to learn how to forgive ourselves). …

Doc:

I will get to your questions as soon as i understand you. Forgive me for being so slow to see what you see. I think what you are saying is that to be unforgiving means to:

Retain in one’s own possession a recollection of the past injurious, unfair, or unjust acts of another.

That would mean that to be forgiving means to:Release from one’s own possession a recollection of the past injurious, unfair, or unjust acts of another.

In other words, to forgive is to do your best to forget the sins of another. You would then not bring them up again with your words, nor would you take any action in regard to them with your deeds. You would act as though he had never sinned at all. You would, in effect, give the person a complete and full pardon for his sin, would you not?

 

[trogiah]

That for which i am looking for is that for which Socrates was looking (as his quote below each of my replies implies). Wisdom is probably something i will never attain on this side of eternity. Sometimes i ask questions having no idea what the answers will be. Other times i ask questions thinking i know what the answers will be only to be surprised by something different. Other times i ask questions knowing full well what the answers will be.

However, i will try to get as close to truth as i can by asking as many questions as i can. In this way i believe, as Socrates believed, that i will get closer to God. Didn’t Jesus say He was the truth?

Regarding definitions 2 and 4 of the word forgive, i would agree that this is what forgiveness is, but it is not all that it is. To forgive also means to pardon. This is what Jesus meant, i believe, when He said"So watch yourselves. If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, ‘I repent,’ forgive him."(Luke 17:3-4)What do you think it means, Jim, to pardon someone for sins committed against you?

Your stated goal sounds very worthy to me. As the good book says:

"Resplendent and unfading is Wisdom, and she is readily perceived by those who love her, and found by those who seek her. She hastens to make herself known in anticipation of men’s desire; he who watches for her at dawn shall not be disappointed, for he shall find her sitting by his gate. For taking thought of her is the perfection of prudence, and he who for her sake keeps vigil shall quickly be free from care"

Reading your many questions and requests for definitions I am wondering myself what Jesus would say to some of your questions. How would he define forgiveness vs. mercy vs. pardoning?

I am not certain what he would say but I know he often told stories of people involved in specific actions when people asked him to clarify the meaning of certain words. For instance he told the story of the Samaritan who helped out an injured man when someone asked him to explain who a neighbor was. He tells the story of the merciless servant to explain what it means to forgive/pardon/show mercy…

Let me suggest the following additional nuances of meaning. Forgiveness is the giving up of feelings of bitterness and resentment (as previously stated) It is something that each and every person must try to do in order to have perfect peace with God.

Pardoning implies a certain measure of power over the person who has committed the offense. It means letting a person go without paying the price for their offense. Let’s suppose I was a citizen of a country with an autocratice ruler who whimsically decided to take my house so he could build a water park. I could meaningfully say I forgive the ruler, but saying I pardon the ruler would imply I have power to enforce some penalty that I really don’t.

Forgiveness is the disposition of one’s heart to accept a situation without the desire for vengeance. It is something any of us can achieve or not achieve. The idea of pardoning is only relevant if a person has a certain measure of power.

Jim

 

[DrPiano]

Doc:

I will get to your questions as soon as i understand you. Forgive me for being so slow to see what you see. I think what you are saying is that to be unforgiving means to:

Retain in one’s own possession a recollection of the past injurious, unfair, or unjust acts of another.

That would mean that to be forgiving means to:Release from one’s own possession a recollection of the past injurious, unfair, or unjust acts of another.

In other words, to forgive is to do your best to forget the sins of another. You would then not bring them up again with your words, nor would you take any action in regard to them with your deeds. You would act as though he had never sinned at all. You would, in effect, give the person a complete and full pardon for his sin, would you not?

Again, no- forgiveness is not “acting as though he had never sinned at all.” Forgiveness is letting go of your anger, bitterness, and need/desire for revenge or vengeance, giving it over to God, and not hanging on tightly to the specific circumstances of the incident OR bringing up those specifics in a way that is designed to hurt the person who has harmed you.. The italicized part is the portion of forgiveness that is not keeping a record of wrongs.

Forgiveness encompasses more than not keeping a record of wrongs. However not keeping a record of wrongs does NOT mean entirely forgetting what happened.

If you were to entirely forget what that person had done, you would not be capable of loving them because you would not be able to help protect that person from the near occasion of sin.

And, as trogiah states, a pardon implies that I have power over that person, so a pardon is not necessarily accurate in this case.

Also, even as God forgives our sins, he does not necessarily take away the temporal consequences of those sins.

I hope that helps this time.

As a side note, I do not see how your understanding me prevents you from answering my questions. My questions are designed to help me understand you. Its a mutual understanding. So, before I answer any more of your questions, I will wait for your answer to mine.

Incidentally, I was wondering if you would say that in loving another person, one is required to do all those acts of love as circumstances allow?

Also, you have not yet responded to my postulation that offering or giving forgiveness is equal to forgiving but NOT equal to receiving that forgiveness. Nor have you responded to my postulation that God offers forgiveness (forgives) us without condition but that it is us who rejects that forgiveness (by not repenting and admitting that what we did was a sin) and therefore spend eternity apart from him through our own choice.