Forgiveness FAQ

[Socrates4Jesus]

I guess I couldn’t stay away.

I am wondering how you came to the conclusion that God forgives according to the two conditions you stated. My understanding of Scripture leads me to believe that the only condition a person MUST meet in order to be forgiven of sins is to practice the forgiveness of others. …

Jim:

That is a unique way of looking at how God forgives. Before i could adopt your view, i would like to take a close look at any passages of the Bible you believe teach that the only condition one must meet to be forgiven by God is to forgive others unconditionally.

 

[Philthy]

That’s an interesting viewpoint which i have not considered, Philty. Does God the Son forgive those who God the Father does not? Does God the Son forgive in a different way from God the Father?

I know there are many passages in St. John’s gospel where Jesus compares Himself to the Father. For example, He says

“I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.”(John 5:19)

and"You do not know me or my Father," Jesus replied. “If you knew me, you would know my Father also.” (John 8:20)

and"I and the Father are one."(John 10:30)and

Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father." (John 10:37-38)

andJesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?”(John 14:9)
If you and i want to know God the Father, says Jesus, just look at Jesus Himself. What Jesus thinks, God thinks; what Jesus believes, God believes; what Jesus says, God says; and what Jesus does God does.

It seems to me that if Jesus forgave a different way from God the Father, He and the Father could not both be God, for God does not disagree with Himself. God is both the Father and the Son, so God will not act one way as the Father and a different way as the Son. If He did, He would not be one God, but two (or worse, yet, He would be one God who is schizophrenic).

Jesus even prays about you and me, saying

“My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one.”(John 17:20-22)
I think it pleases God when you and i try to be one with Him the way Jesus was one with Him. It seems to me that being one with God the Father means trying to do everything the way that He does, such as loving the way that He does, and forgiving the way that He does. What else would it mean to be one with God?

All true. None of it, however, addresses the issue I raised:
God the Son had a human nature and forgave as one man to another while God the Father does not.
What was St. Stephen’s prayer just before he was stoned to death? “Father do not hold this sin against them” If they were ignorant and therefore not culpable - as you argued previously - it would not have been a sin requiring forgiveness. St Steven describes their action as a SIN and despite their unrepentance, asks the Father to forgive them. Steven did so with no conditions…

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

…I am wondering how you came to the conclusion that God forgives according to the two conditions you stated. My understanding of Scripture leads me to believe that the only condition a person MUST meet in order to be forgiven of sins is to practice the forgiveness of others…

Jim:

Thanks for not staying away, BTW! I do appreciate your helping me think through this.

Regarding my view that in order for God to forgive us we must meet the conditions of either (1) not being responsible for our sins or (2) repenting of our sins, you ask a fair question. Why do i think God requires us to repent?

My first answer is that requiring people to repent in order to receive forgiveness is in line with God’s desire for you and me. Repentance is agreeing with God that what i am doing is wrong, and that it offends Him, and that i should change my behavior. If i were to ask God to forgive me without having any intention of changing my behavior, i do not think that God will do that. If He does forgive people this way, then He does not love them, for St. Paul writes

“Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.”(1 Corinthians 13:6)For God to not require repentance would be for Him to condone our evil (i.e., sinful) behavior, and “love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.” What is the truth about God’s reason for forgiving? The truth, i think, is in His goal for forgiving. It is not so that we can sin more and more but so we might sin less and less. St. Peter makes this same point when he writes

The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.(2 Peter 3:9)God does not want you and i to perish in hell, but to repent of our sins so that He can forgive us.

When you think about it, isn’t repentance one of the purposes of going to confession? It’s not just about saying a few Hail Marys and Our Fathers, i think. By confessing your sins to a priest, are you not agreeing that what you have done is wrong, that you have offended God, and that you need to change your behavior? Or do you just confess your sins, walk out of the confessional, and go right back to doing all the same sinful things you have been doing without any remorse or desire to change?

 

[Philthy]

True, Philthy, only God can forgive perfectly!

However, didn’t Jesus tell us to, “Be perfect…just as your Father in heaven is perfect.” (Matthew 5:48)?

Should not you and i forgive as perfectly as we can? Doesn’t forgiving as perfectly as we can mean forgiving as close to the way God forgives as we can?

To be more accurate to forgive perfectly for us means to forgive as close to the way God the Son forgave while he was human…
there is a difference don’t you think?

 

[DrPiano]

Hello, I am byrdele and please to meet all of you. This is directed to a comment made by LilyM and is also to anyone who can answer this dilemma scripturally and based on Catholic tradition.

My brother hurt me very badly …

Please help me out. Thank you.

In Christ

Byrdele,

I very much sympathize with your situation - my family is going through a similar (although not exactly the same) situation right now. I can guess that you are going to get 2 different answers here, as we pretty much come down in 2 camps. Myself, and I think a few others would say that yes, you can forgive, while still not putting yourself in a situation where you are going to have to spend a lot of time with your brother. However, I would probably say avoiding your brother altogether is not really forgiving (but I don’t know the whole situation). As many of us have been trying to explain, our definition of forgiveness means letting go of your anger, bitterness, and desire for revenge and giving all that to God. It requires not “keeping a record of wrongs” - for many of us this means not keeping a detailed list (in memory or writing) of the things your brother has done to hurt you. It does not mean that you have to entirely forget that he has broken trust with you (perhaps looking at some of the posts that focus on “keeping a record of wrongs” might help). Forgiveness is hard - I know that very well. But it is something that God requires of us. Pray for him - and ask God for the strength to forgive him. And love your Mother.

My prayers are with you.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

… I am wondering how you came to the conclusion that God forgives according to the two conditions you stated. My understanding of Scripture leads me to believe that the only condition a person MUST meet in order to be forgiven of sins is to practice the forgiveness of others…

My second answer, Jim, is that this is what Christ and His followers appear to teach. Think about it. Jesus began His mission on earth by warning people to

“Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near.”
(Matthew 4:17)
and He ended His mission on earth by telling His followers that

“…repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.”
(Luke 24:47)
Between the beginning and end of His mission He repeated the requirement to repent over and over, for He said

“I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”
(Luke 5:32)
and
“But unless you repent, you too will all perish.”
(Luke 13:3)
and
“I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.”
(Luke 15:7)
It seems clear to me that Jesus tells us that repentance is not an option, for “unless you repent, you too will…perish” (Luke 13:5).

I could quote many more statements by Jesus and the New Testament authors that say the same, but i do not think this is necessary.

Soc

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Jim:

Even if you are not convinced that repentance is a requirement you and i must meet in order to receive God’s forgiveness, you still have this to consider: If forgiving others is the only condition you must meet in order for God to forgive you, you still must meet a condition! That is, you still agree with me that God forgives conditionally.

The question with which you must wrestle is this: Which way is the most perfect and good way to forgive—your way of forgiving unconditionally or God’s way of forgiving conditionally?

Something to think about,
Soc

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

To be more accurate to forgive perfectly for us means to forgive as close to the way God the Son forgave while he was human…
there is a difference don’t you think?

Actually, no i do not think. Perhaps you can show me how i’m wrong, Philthy. Will you cite one example of where Jesus forgave unconditionally? (Keep in mind that i agree He showed mercy unconditionally, which is not the same thing as forgiving unconditionally.)

Soc

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Byrdele,
… As many of us have been trying to explain, our definition of forgiveness means letting go of your anger, bitterness, and desire for revenge and giving all that to God. … Forgiveness is hard - I know that very well. But it is something that God requires of us. Pray for him - and ask God for the strength to forgive him. And love your Mother. My prayers are with you.

Byrdele:

I believe the good doctor gives extremely good advice. You should let go of your anger, bitterness and desire for revenge and give that all to God. I just would call this mercy, not forgiveness.

Forgiveness to me is wiping the slate clean and restoring your relationship with and trust in the person. I believe this requires repentance before you can trust the person enough to get that close again. That is, he has to admit what he did was wrong and show you he will try his best to never do it again. I think that doc would agree that a person must show himself trustworthy before you should risk trusting him again.

In short, i agree with the advice she has given you, most of all the advice to pray about this as much as you can, asking God for the guidance and power to love as Jesus loves.

Praying for you,
Soc

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

All true. None of it, however, addresses the issue I raised:
God the Son had a human nature and forgave as one man to another while God the Father does not.
What was St. Stephen’s prayer just before he was stoned to death? “Father do not hold this sin against them” If they were ignorant and therefore not culpable - as you argued previously - it would not have been a sin requiring forgiveness. St Steven describes their action as a SIN and despite their unrepentance, asks the Father to forgive them. Steven did so with no conditions…

St. Paul was there at the murder of St. Stephen. He held the cloaks of those who picked up the stones to bash in the saint’s head. If you read St. Paul’s letters in the Bible, you will see that he said he was ignorant that what he was doing was a sin.

Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief.(1 Timothy 1:13)He and the others who put Steven to death really thought that they were following the Old Testament law and doing what was right. Steven was praying, like Jesus prayed, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.”

Therefore, St. Paul and the others who murdered St. Stephen met the condition of being ignorant of the wrongfulness of their actions. That’s why God forgave their sin of murder.

 

[Philthy]

St. Paul was there at the murder of St. Stephen. He held the cloaks of those who picked up the stones to bash in the saint’s head. If you read St. Paul’s letters in the Bible, you will see that he said he was ignorant that what he was doing was a sin.

Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief.(1 Timothy 1:13)He and the others who put Steven to death really thought that they were following the Old Testament law and doing what was right. Steven was praying, like Jesus prayed, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.”

Therefore, St. Paul and the others who murdered St. Stephen met the condition of being ignorant of the wrongfulness of their actions. That’s why God forgave their sin of murder.

A few things, Soc:

First, you keep supplying and analyzing situations where people ask GOD to forgive another when the topic is about US forgiving another. God forgiving and us forgiving are not the same thing. If we were God, they would be the same. But we are not God. God’s forgiveness cleanses completely the soul of the sinner; our forgiveness does nothing of the sort. You never addressed my question to you regarding who would condemn someone forgiven by God. You actually said that those who are forgiven by God don’t go to Heaven. I guess I should simply ask, “Why not?”

Second, St Paul’s letters regarding Stevens incident are irrelevent to Steven’s decision to ask for forgiveness. Steven had to make his petition without the benefit of perfect knowledge - just like you and I do. This much we know: Stevens assessment was that their action was a “sin” and required forgiveness. We also know that he asked the Father to forgive them. It is clear that they were not repenting while stoning him to death. I conclude that he forgave them himself independent of repentence and that he offered this prayer on their behalf before the Father in union with the sacrifice of Christ for the forgiveness of sins. What you would need to show me is that although Steven prayed for God to forgive them, he (Steven) didn’t forgive them personally.

Lastly, your assessment that they were “forgiven” by God is pure assumption. Worse than that, it is contradictory! Either they were guilty of a sin or they were not. If they were ignorant of the fact that their actions were contrary to God’s will, then did they actually sin? I don’t think so. It is really irrelevent, as I pointed out above - Steven had to make a decision whether to forgive or not and he did so without requiring the repentance that you are clinging to.

 

[Philthy]

It seems clear to me that Jesus tells us that repentance is not an option, for “unless you repent, you too will…perish” (Luke 13:5).

I could quote many more statements by Jesus and the New Testament authors that say the same, but i do not think this is necessary.

Soc

Repentance is a conditional prerequisite in receiving God’s forgiveness but it is not a conditional prerequisite for you to forgive someone.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

…God forgiving and us forgiving are not the same thing. If we were God, they would be the same. But we are not God. God’s forgiveness cleanses completely the soul of the sinner; our forgiveness does nothing of the sort. …

Philthy:

Thanks for all your patience! I must apologize, for i see my unclear communication has resulted in much misunderstanding between us. I will try to do a better job of communicating what i actually mean starting with your first question.

When i say, “You and i should forgive as God Himself forgives” what i do NOT mean is that you and i should forgive with the same results as God’s results. As you said, i completely agree, that God’s forgiveness completely cleanses (or in some wonderful way removes) my sins from me. As David prayed

For as high as the heavens are above the earth,
so great is his love for those who fear him; as far as the east is from the west,
so far has he removed our transgressions from us.
(Psalm 103:11-12)
When i forgive, i in no way think that my forgiveness has the same power to remove the sin from the one i forgive. As you said, the results do not compare.

What do i mean when i say, “You and i should forgive the way God forgives”? What i mean is that the reasons why you and i forgive should be the same reasons why God Himself forgives. God forgives because those forgiven either (1) are ignorant of their sins or (2) are aware of their sins and yet repent. Likewise, i believe you and i should forgive for the same reasons, that is, if the people we forgive are, to the best of our knowledge, either (1) ignorant of their sins or (2) are aware of their sins but have demonstrated, by their words and deeds, that they have repented.

So, yes, i agree you and i do not forgive with the same results, but i believe we should forgive for the same reasons that God forgives. As St. Paul writes

Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you.
(Colossians 3:13)

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

… I conclude that he forgave them himself independent of repentence and that he offered this prayer on their behalf before the Father in union with the sacrifice of Christ for the forgiveness of sins. What you would need to show me is that although Steven prayed for God to forgive them, he (Steven) didn’t forgive them personally. …

Philthy:

Again, i must apologize for not communicating well. I am not trying to affirm that a person must BOTH be ignorant of his sin AND repent of his sin. Rather, what i am suggesting is that a person must EITHER be ignorant OR repent. The people St. Stephen forgave were ignorant of their sin, as St. Paul later writes that he was ignorant of his sin. His words in the letter he wrote show that he thought, at the time, that killing Stephen was the right thing to do.

I’m sure you are not claiming that St. Paul was being disingenuous when he wrote to the priest Timothy saying, “Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief.”

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

… If they were ignorant of the fact that their actions were contrary to God’s will, then did they actually sin? I don’t think so. It is really irrelevent, as I pointed out above - Steven had to make a decision whether to forgive or not and he did so without requiring the repentance that you are clinging to.

Interesting position to take, Philthy. If they thought the killing was justifiable, did they even sin at all? Maybe there was NO sin in murdering Stephen because they had no idea it was wrong! Certainly in a court of law people who have killed are found innocent because they did not know the killing was wrong. That is something i’d have to think about more deeply before i could respond.

Regarding Stephen forgiving them because they repented, i’d reply again that what i really believe is that he asked God to forgive them because they were ignorant of the sinful nature of their actions.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Repentance is a conditional prerequisite in receiving God’s forgiveness but it is not a conditional prerequisite for you to forgive someone.

I’ve tried to answered all of your questions, Philthy. Will you please answer some of mine?

Why do you believe that the best, most virtuous, and most loving way for you to forgive is to forgive unconditionally? What reason do you have for saying it is better, more virtuous and more loving to forgive without requiring a person to either be ignorant of his sin or repent of his sin?

 

[Philthy]

I’ve tried to answered all of your questions, Philthy. Will you please answer some of mine?

Why do you believe that the best, most virtuous, and most loving way for you to forgive is to forgive unconditionally? What reason do you have for saying it is better, more virtuous and more loving to forgive without requiring a person to either be ignorant of his sin or repent of his sin?

Because in doing so I humble myself; I judge not that I not be judged and I acknowledge that only God is worthy of judging another which glorifies Him. In addition, forgiveness is an act of love based upon love of God and, as Paul says, love never fails.

What negative consequence do you think can result from your unconditional forgiveness?

 

[Philthy]

Therefore, St. Paul and the others who murdered St. Stephen met the condition of being ignorant of the wrongfulness of their actions…

While this may be true, it is simply unknown whether **Stephen **was aware of their ignorance, and that is the only relevant consideration. If he was aware of their ignorance, as you claim, I see no reason for him to pray for their forgiveness. Do you?
So which is it?

• Stephen knew they hadnt sinned but prayed for their forgiveness anyhow - OR
• Stephen thought they had sinned and prayed for their forgiveness unconditionally?

 

[trogiah]

Jim:

That is a unique way of looking at how God forgives. Before i could adopt your view, i would like to take a close look at any passages of the Bible you believe teach that the only condition one must meet to be forgiven by God is to forgive others unconditionally.

The following are all from the gospel of Matthew

“Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy.”

“and forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.”

“If you forgive others their transgressions, your heavenly Father will forgive you.
But if you do not forgive others, neither will your Father forgive your transgressions.” [That one seems to spell it out clear as day]

"Stop judging, that you may not be judged.
For as you judge, so will you be judged, and the measure with which you measure will be measured out to you]

[Insert the parable of the unforgiving servant here Matthew chapter 18 verses 23-34]
“So will my heavenly Father do to you, unless each of you forgives his brother from his heart.”

Those are just the ones from Matthew’s Gospel.

Those statements strongly convince me that the key to receiving forgiveness is to practice forgiveness.

Jim

 

[trogiah]

Jim:

Thanks for not staying away, BTW! I do appreciate your helping me think through this.

Regarding my view that in order for God to forgive us we must meet the conditions of either (1) not being responsible for our sins or (2) repenting of our sins, you ask a fair question. Why do i think God requires us to repent?

My first answer is that requiring people to repent in order to receive forgiveness is in line with God’s desire for you and me. Repentance is agreeing with God that what i am doing is wrong, and that it offends Him, and that i should change my behavior. If i were to ask God to forgive me without having any intention of changing my behavior, i do not think that God will do that. If He does forgive people this way, then He does not love them, for St. Paul writes

When you think about it, isn’t repentance one of the purposes of going to confession? It’s not just about saying a few Hail Marys and Our Fathers, i think. By confessing your sins to a priest, are you not agreeing that what you have done is wrong, that you have offended God, and that you need to change your behavior? Or do you just confess your sins, walk out of the confessional, and go right back to doing all the same sinful things you have been doing without any remorse or desire to change?

At the risk of getting into lengthy discussions about the definition of terms, I have to say that I am wondering what exactly we mean by the word “repent”. I suppose I could agree to saying that repentence is necessary for forgiveness but, as I understand the word “repentence” that is kind of like saying before you can get food to eat you have to be hungry and feel a desire to eat. Forgiveness only makes sense for a person who has admitted to themself that they need forgiveness.

Jim