Forgiveness FAQ

[trogiah]

Jim:

Even if you are not convinced that repentance is a requirement you and i must meet in order to receive God’s forgiveness, you still have this to consider: If forgiving others is the only condition you must meet in order for God to forgive you, you still must meet a condition! That is, you still agree with me that God forgives conditionally.

The question with which you must wrestle is this: Which way is the most perfect and good way to forgive—your way of forgiving unconditionally or God’s way of forgiving conditionally?

Something to think about,
Soc

The statement **"If you forgive others their transgressions, your heavenly Father will forgive you. **
But if you do not forgive others, neither will your Father forgive your transgressions. "
is most certainly a conditional statement. And to say forgiving unconditionally is my way of forgiving is giving me more credit than I am due. I might point to forgiving unconditional forgiving and say “that is the best way” but that doesn’t mean I can put it into practice always. The closer I can get to forgiving unconditionally, the more certain I can be that God will forgive me.

Someone was pointing to a statement Stephen made when he was being martyred. “Don’t hold this sin against them”. I would say this statement has much less to do with the forgiveness of those who stoned him than it does with Stephen being forgiven for any sins he may have. If he can sincerely forgive people who are killing him, he probably doesn’t have much to worry about in regards to his own forgiveness from God.

Jim

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

At the risk of getting into lengthy discussions about the definition of terms, I have to say that I am wondering what exactly we mean by the word “repent”. I suppose I could agree to saying that repentence is necessary for forgiveness but, as I understand the word “repentence” that is kind of like saying before you can get food to eat you have to be hungry and feel a desire to eat. Forgiveness only makes sense for a person who has admitted to themself that they need forgiveness.

Jim

Jim:

Please feel free to call me Soc, BTW. I think you are correct in saying that a discussion (as brief as we can make it) about the meaning of repentance is in order. Otherwise, you and i might waste time by miscommunicating with one another. For if i think one thing when i hear the word repent and you think something entirely different, what else could be the result but misunderstanding?

I like your analogy of repentance being like hunger. I think Jesus would like it too, for He said

“Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled.”
(Matthew 5:6)
That a person who is not righteous (or not good) would desire to become righteous (or good) might be part of what repentance is. Yet, i think repentance is more than that, because a person seeing his depravity and desiring to become good might shrug his shoulders and say, “It’s too late for me to change now, so why bother?” The man who has given up on himself might even weep over his sin. However, if he then continues in his hellbent behavior, we could not rightly say he had repented (though we might be right in saying he had a desire to repent).

So, there must be something more to repentance than just a desire to change. It must be more than a longing to be good and regret for being evil. Would you say repentance is a genuine desire AND a sincere decision to change one’s behavior from that which is sinful to that which is good?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Socrates4Jesus forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
*I’ve tried to answered all of your questions, Philthy. Will you please answer some of mine?

Why do you believe that the best, most virtuous, and most loving way for you to forgive is to forgive unconditionally? What reason do you have for saying it is better, more virtuous and more loving to forgive without requiring a person to either be ignorant of his sin or repent of his sin?*

Because in doing so I humble myself; I judge not that I not be judged and I acknowledge that only God is worthy of judging another which glorifies Him. In addition, forgiveness is an act of love based upon love of God and, as Paul says, love never fails.

What negative consequence do you think can result from your unconditional forgiveness?

Well, two negative consequences come to mind: (1) By telling someone i forgive his actions he might get the wrong idea that he can take advantage of me and commit the same sin as much as he pleases. (2) By saying i forgive and yet doing nothing that shows i have restored my relationship and trust in the person, i would think he might see me as a hypocrite. My goal, however, is not to prove myself right but to understand you. I want to know what you believe is true and whether you can prove it to be true.

Philthy, you said that “forgiveness is an act of love based upon love of God” and i do not understand exactly what you mean. In what way is the way i should forgive based on the love of God?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Jim and Philthy:

You have both made some other good points which are worthy of discussion, but i’m one who becomes easily distracted. So, i’d like to discuss one thing at a time before moving on to the next. Making a half a dozen replies or more to your replies will only seek to confuse the conversations, don’t you think?

 

[Philthy]

Well, two negative consequences come to mind: (1) By telling someone i forgive his actions he might get the wrong idea that he can take advantage of me and commit the same sin as much as he pleases.

Well, he can commit the sin as much as he pleases - there isnt much you can do to control another’s free will. I think though, by definition, to tell someone that you forgive them is to simultaneously tell them that you deem their action to be wrong and hurtful to you and that you dont want them to do it again. Whether the person chooses to respond to the initiative God places in their heart upon this confession by you is not something you can control. You can pray for them, though.
I do feel, however, that your concern about leading another to comfortably sin through forgiveness is an excellent point. If you honestly feel that verbally forgiving someone will actually cause THEM more harm than good then I think you must practice forgiveness of the heart while seeking to act in a manner which will bring about a repentance in them. One must be careful, given our sinful nature, however, that he/she is not actually serving one’s own interest under the guise of concern for another.
soc:

(2) By saying i forgive and yet doing nothing that shows i have restored my relationship and trust in the person, i would think he might see me as a hypocrite.

Again, legitimate concern and an excellent point. I don’t think you have to restore the relationship perfectly in order to forgive. You can forgive in the sense that you do not wish eternal damnation on the person because of their actions, yet simultaneously acknowledge to them that you are also not perfect and need time and healing in order to restore the relationship.
soc:

My goal, however, is not to prove myself right but to understand you. I want to know what you believe is true and whether you can prove it to be true.

Know that we are on the same team, Soc. :yup: I am simply trying to expose what is on my heart using words and reason. I’m not judging you - I am simply offering what I have to offer. I dont pretend to have all the answers.
soc:

Philthy, you said that “forgiveness is an act of love based upon love of God” and i do not understand exactly what you mean. In what way is the way i should forgive based on the love of God?

If your motive to forgive someone is something other than love of God (which includes viewing the other person as someone loved by God and created in His image) then your motive is less than pure. Forgive knowing that “God will reckon to each according to his deeds” and that you dont need to hold things against people.
Let go of this world and focus on eternity. “I urge you as aliens and sojourners to keep away from worldy desires which wage war upon the soul” Revenge, getting what you “deserve”, judging others, etc are worldly desires…

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

…Know that we are on the same team, Soc. :yup: I am simply trying to expose what is on my heart using words and reason. I’m not judging you - I am simply offering what I have to offer. I dont pretend to have all the answers…

Philthy:

I appreciate your non-confrontational tone and reasonableness. I also believe you are sincere in saying you are not judging me in your mind.

I hesitate to ask, for fear of offending you, but are you not judging me in your actions by what you write? Isn’t saying that what i believe is wrong a way of judging the accuracy of my beliefs? Of course, i do not accuse you of having any animosity toward me. That is not what i mean by assuming you are judging me. What i believe you are trying to do is to fairly and impartially judge my assertions based on what you know to be the truth. Compared to the truth you believe to be the truth at the moment, you have recognized my beliefs contradict this standard, and told me so. If you are not judging me in your mind, your actions appear to show otherwise.

So you judge (perhaps correctly, perhaps not) that what i believe is false and tell me so. I see no sin in what you are doing, as you appear to be sincere in your assertions that i am in the wrong, but then i do see it as judging my beliefs, nonetheless. Jesus said

“Stop judging by mere appearances, and make a right judgment.”(John 7:24)By saying, “make a right judgement” isn’t your Lord and mine commanding us to judge, but to do so fairly? Isn’t He saying that when we are forced to judge whether another has committed a sin, we should judge in the most equitable way we can, as God himself judges?

An example would be the leadership of the Roman Catholic Church excommunicating a person. This is certainly an illustration of judging another, but not a sin if it is done fairly and tempered with mercy. The Roman Catholic Church, i assume, is always ready to forgive (or pardon) the excommunicated for his sin if the offender repents of his sin, asks for forgiveness, and renounces the sin or heresy he committed. Being ready to forgive is what mercy is. Pardoning a person for his sin is what forgiveness is.

Does any part of this sound reasonable?

 

[Philthy]

Philthy:

I appreciate your non-confrontational tone and reasonableness. I also believe you are sincere in saying you are not judging me in your mind.

I hesitate to ask, for fear of offending you, but are you not judging me in your actions by what you write?
So you judge…my beliefs, nonetheless. Jesus said

Does any part of this sound reasonable?

It is all reasonable. Love, however, is not confined by reason and when you attempt to apply standards of reasonableness to love I believe you err.
It is possible to judge another’s actions or beliefs without judging that person’s heart. I dont judge your heart, Soc.
Here is today’s Gospel reflection from Fr. Walt Schu of the Legionaries of Christ - he is a multilingual theologian, author of The Splendor of Love (a summary of JP2’s vision for marriage and family), and a very nice guy.
Today’s meditation deals with some of the issues we are wrestling with. This is an excellent daily meditation and you can have it sent to you daily or access it from their website at:

regnum@regnumchristi.org

The Radical Newness of Christ’s Kingdom June 18, 2007

Monday of the Eleventh Week in Ordinary Time
Father Walter Schu, LC
Matthew 5: 38-42
Jesus said to his disciples: “You have heard that it was said, An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. But I say to you, offer no resistance to one who is evil. When someone strikes you on your right cheek, turn the other one to him as well. If anyone wants to go to law with you over your tunic, hand him your cloak as well. Should anyone press you into service for one mile, go with him for two miles. Give to the one who asks of you, and do not turn your back on one who wants to borrow.”
**Introductory Prayer: **Lord, you present a message that is not easy for my fallen nature to accept. However, I believe in your words and I trust in you because you alone have the words of eternal life. As I begin this moment of prayer, I turn to you as one in need. I only want to please you in all I do.
****Petition: ****Lord, help me to live the radical charity to which you are calling me as your follower. Help me to embrace your call to turn the other cheek.
1. A Unifying Thread Can we discover a unifying thread in this week’s Gospel readings? One that stands out is the radical newness of Christ’s Kingdom. It is new in its fundamental principle: a charity that must extend to loving one’s very enemies (Monday and Tuesday). It is new in the intentions which must motivate all our actions (Wednesday). It is new in the way we are to pray to our Father in heaven (Thursday). And, finally, it is new in the radical demands it places upon us as followers of Christ: We must make this Kingdom our only treasure (Friday) and seek it above everything else in life (Saturday). What a privilege to be called to the mission of helping to establish such a Kingdom! What a joy, what an honor, what a glory to be the subjects of such a King!
2. “But I Say to You…” We find ourselves at the heart of Christ’s discourse in his Sermon on the Mount. Our Lord attributes to himself an authority that must have startled and even shocked his Jewish listeners. He claims the power to alter what has been proclaimed in the very Law of Moses and the prophets — the absolute source of authority for the Jewish faith. Remember that God gave Moses the Ten Commandments, and God put his word in the mouths of the prophets. So when Jesus says, “You have heard it said…. But I say to you…,” only two alternatives are possible: Either Christ is a madman, or he is truly the Son of God, the one who has come “not to abolish the law and the prophets, but to fulfill them.”
3. “Offer No Resistance to One Who Is Evil.” It would certainly be hard to find words more radical than these. Who would dare to speak them, if not the Son of God himself? He would live them out fully in his own life, allowing himself to be nailed to the cross by evil men. But is it really possible for us to live them as his followers, as Christians? Do we really turn the other cheek when someone strikes us? If people demand something of us unjustly, do we give them even more than they ask? What could be the purpose of these commands from Christ, which seem to leave us vulnerable and defenseless? In the end, it is only such heroic charity that will be able to win over evil men to the cause of the Gospel. And that is precisely what Christ, our Savior, longs for. “God … desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth” (1 Timothy 2:3-4).
**Introductory Prayer: **Lord, I long to have a heart that is more like yours. Help me to grow in zeal for all men to be saved and to come to know you in their lives.
**Resolution: **I will do an act of kindness for someone with whom it is difficult for me to get along.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

It is all reasonable. Love, however, is not confined by reason and when you attempt to apply standards of reasonableness to love I believe you err.
It is possible to judge another’s actions or beliefs without judging that person’s heart. I dont judge your heart, Soc. …

By my heart, i’m sure you do not mean the organ that circulates blood though my body. You might mean that part of me which is the source of my thoughts, or perhaps my soul. My mind or soul is that part of me that thinks, and is the cause of my actions and my beliefs. So i do not see how you can say that judging my words and actions is not the same as judging me (for my mind or soul is me). Therefore, i do not think this is what you mean when you say, “It is possible to judge another’s actions or beliefs without judging that person’s heart.”

Now, what you might be saying that you should judge my words and deeds but not my motives. No one but God can judge the motives of another, for no one can know the thoughts of another besides God. If this is what you mean, then i agree that it is right to judge a person’s words and actions without trying to judge his motives. Am i correct in thinking that this is what you mean Philthy? If so, then i see nothing unreasonable about judging people your way.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Philthy:

You seem to me to be a wise fellow. Perhaps you can help me better understand forgiveness by giving me a standard of forgiveness to guide me.

When two people disagree about something, a standard or rule is a good way to settle the matter. When two disagree about the amount of a purchase, for example, they resolve the dispute by getting out a calculator and using the standards of mathematics. When two people disagree about the rules of an athletic contest, they consult the rule book for that sport. When two people disagree about the spelling of a word, they look it up in a dictionary. The reason it is so easy to settle such disputes is that there are standards (or rules) of mathematics, sports and spelling to which we all agree and submit.

What i need is a standard like that to which i can look and compare my words and actions. I need to know what you believe forgiving is so that i can see if i measure up.

What you have told me is

Because in doing so I humble myself; I judge not that I not be judged and I acknowledge that only God is worthy of judging another which glorifies Him. In addition, forgiveness is an act of love based upon love of God and, as Paul says, love never fails.
You have stated that forgiveness is an act of love, but there are many acts of love that can be shown to someone who does not need to be forgiven. You have said forgiveness is humbling myself and not judging another, but that it is OK to judge the beliefs (or words) and actions of another. I need a more exact standard than this, for how can i know that i am forgiving if i do not know precisely what it means to forgive?

Please tell me Philthy, exactly what is forgiveness?

 

[trogiah]

Jim:

Please feel free to call me Soc, BTW. I think you are correct in saying that a discussion (as brief as we can make it) about the meaning of repentance is in order. Otherwise, you and i might waste time by miscommunicating with one another. For if i think one thing when i hear the word repent and you think something entirely different, what else could be the result but misunderstanding?

I like your analogy of repentance being like hunger. I think Jesus would like it too, for He said

“Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled.”

(Matthew 5:6)
That a person who is not righteous (or not good) would desire to become righteous (or good) might be part of what repentance is. Yet, i think repentance is more than that, because a person seeing his depravity and desiring to become good might shrug his shoulders and say, “It’s too late for me to change now, so why bother?” The man who has given up on himself might even weep over his sin. However, if he then continues in his hellbent behavior, we could not rightly say he had repented (though we might be right in saying he had a desire to repent).

So, there must be something more to repentance than just a desire to change. It must be more than a longing to be good and regret for being evil. Would you say repentance is a genuine desire AND a sincere decision to change one’s behavior from that which is sinful to that which is good?

Soc,

(I know, sometimes I get so caught up in the content of a discussion that I forget basic people skills… like using a person’s name)

I went to church this Sunday and listened to the priest (one of the better ones who comes to our little mission) talk about the importance of repentence in the process of forgiveness. Even before that I was pondering the idea of conditions on God’s forgiveness and the story of the Prodigal son came to mind. He came back to his father after wild and reckless behaviour and though he did feel and say contrite things, it was as if the father wasn’t even listening to what he was saying, he was just so glad to see his son again.

But… the son did have to do something, he had to come to his senses enough to come back to his father. I thing the younger son’s words and actions in that story are a good example of repentence.

So… I will back off of any statements that may have implied that repentence isn’t needed to be forgiven. Forgiveness can’t be received unless a person is sorry.

The question as to whether or not any additional price must be paid in order to “earn” forgiveness can, I think, be answered by the phrase “If you forgive others, God will forgive you, If you do not forgive others, God will not forgive you.”

You have just asked Philthy for a standard for forgiveness. I am proposing that it lies within each of us to write our own standard. If we can forgive a person for stealing 5 dollars, then God will forgive us for stealing 5 dollars. If we can forgive a person who makes a sudden turn in front of us without signalling, then God will forgive us for the same thing. If I can forgive people who are crucifying me or stoning me, then I expect there will not be much that God will hold against me.

God gives us the power to write our own standard (or perhaps that is what we gained by eating of the forbidden fruit and acquiring the knowledge of good and evil) , in his mercy He encourages us to choose a lenient standard so that we may be judged leniently, but in his justice He will hold us to the standard to which we hold others…

peace

Jim

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Soc,

(I know, sometimes I get so caught up in the content of a discussion that I forget basic people skills… like using a person’s name)

I went to church this Sunday and listened to the priest (one of the better ones who comes to our little mission) talk about the importance of repentance in the process of forgiveness. Even before that I was pondering the idea of conditions on God’s forgiveness and the story of the Prodigal son came to mind. He came back to his father after wild and reckless behaviour and though he did feel and say contrite things, it was as if the father wasn’t even listening to what he was saying, he was just so glad to see his son again.

But… the son did have to do something, he had to come to his senses enough to come back to his father. I thing the younger son’s words and actions in that story are a good example of repentance. …

Funny how God works! My Evangelical pastor gave a message on the importance of forgiving even those who do not repent! What he was describing sounded more like showing mercy than forgiving to me.

Yes, Jim, i also think the prodigal son showed by his actions that he had repented. Even though the son tried to say he was wrong, the father didn’t need to hear the words. I imagine they both had tears in their eyes as they embraced. Some actions speak louder than words.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

… So I will back off of any statements that may have implied that repentance isn’t needed to be forgiven. Forgiveness can’t be received unless a person is sorry.

The question as to whether or not any additional price must be paid in order to “earn” forgiveness can, I think, be answered by the phrase “If you forgive others, God will forgive you, If you do not forgive others, God will not forgive you.” …

That sounds reasonable to me, Jim. I think that if a person knows he did wrong, admits it was wrong, and sincerely wants to and does his best to change his behavior, that is price enough. That is the only price the prodigal son paid. What you said makes good sense to me.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

… You have just asked Philthy for a standard for forgiveness. I am proposing that it lies within each of us to write our own standard. If we can forgive a person for stealing 5 dollars, then God will forgive us for stealing 5 dollars. If we can forgive a person who makes a sudden turn in front of us without signalling, then God will forgive us for the same thing. If I can forgive people who are crucifying me or stoning me, then I expect there will not be much that God will hold against me.

God gives us the power to write our own standard (or perhaps that is what we gained by eating of the forbidden fruit and acquiring the knowledge of good and evil) , in his mercy He encourages us to choose a lenient standard so that we may be judged leniently, but in his justice He will hold us to the standard to which we hold others…

peace

Jim

Wow, Jim, that is a fascinating way of looking at forgiveness. I should forgive as much as i want to be forgiven. I like that! It’s similar to Jesus’ statement

So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.(Matthew 7:12)I think this is a step in the right direction to finding a standard of forgiveness. I cannot help but thinking, though, that the Roman Catholic who commits murder will be more forgiving than the Pope. For his standard of forgiving as much as he wants to be forgiven will be greater because his sin is greater!

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Jim:

My pastor taught about forgiveness using Matthew 18. What passage did your priest talk about, or what illustration did he use?

21Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?”

22Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times. 23"Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him. 25Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt. 26"The servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’ 27The servant’s master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go. 28"But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii. He grabbed him and began to choke him. ‘Pay back what you owe me!’ he demanded. 29"His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay you back.’ 30"But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. 31When the other servants saw what had happened, they were greatly distressed and went and told their master everything that had happened. 32"Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ 34In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed. 35"This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart.”(Matthew 18)
When i think about this parable, it seems like the standard of forgiveness is more than just forgiving as much as you want to be forgiven. Maybe it is forgiving as much as you have been forgiven by God. You and i might deserve the forgiveness of someone who sins as much as we do, but God, who never sinned against us; God, who let His One and Only Son die for us; God who has every right to let us suffer His wrath forgave you and me. That’s a degree of forgiveness i can never match! If i refuse to forgive someone who repents, i must be insane or have no idea how much God loves me. I like how this Bible teacher to whom i listen on the radio from time to time puts it: “You and i can only love to the degree that we are loved.”

I would go so far as to guess that someone who refuses to forgive a person who repents cannot sincerely call himself a Christian.

 

[Philthy]

Am i correct in thinking that this is what you mean Philthy? If so, then i see nothing unreasonable about judging people your way.

You are correct

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

You are correct

What does it mean, Philthy, to judge a person’s words and actions?

 

[Philthy]

Wow, Jim, that is a fascinating way of looking at forgiveness. I should forgive as much as i want to be forgiven. I like that! It’s similar to Jesus’ statement

So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.(Matthew 7:12)

Not only that, but we have gone full circle back to Matt 6:

Forgive us our trespasses as (ie, in the manner we do, or perhaps since we do) we forgive those who trespass against us.
Soc:

I think this is a step in the right direction to finding a standard of forgiveness. I cannot help but thinking, though, that the Roman Catholic who commits murder will be more forgiving than the Pope. For his standard of forgiving as much as he wants to be forgiven will be greater because his sin is greater!

Absolutely - one who is forgiven more will appreciate that forgiveness more. I make no judgements on the relative sinlessness of the Pope, however! This was yesterdays gospel reading where the woman came to wash Jesus’ feet at the house of the Pharisee. She washed them with her tears and hair and then poured perfume on them. The Pharisee was indignant that Christ would “allow” such a person (the Pharisee knew her many sins) to be seen with him. What does Christ say?

And Jesus answering said to him, “Simon, I have something to say to you.” And he answered, “What is it, Teacher?” Luk 7:41 “A certain creditor had two debtors; one owed five hundred denarii, and the other fifty. Luk 7:42 When they could not pay, he forgave them both. Now which of them will love him more?” Luk 7:43 Simon answered, “The one, I suppose, to whom he forgave more.” And he said to him, “You have judged rightly.” Luk 7:44 Then turning toward the woman he said to Simon, "Do you see this woman? I entered your house, you gave me no water for my feet, but she has wet my feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair. Luk 7:45 You gave me no kiss, but from the time I came in she has not ceased to kiss my feet. Luk 7:46 You did not anoint my head with oil, but she has anointed my feet with ointment. Luk 7:47 Therefore I tell you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven, for she loved much; but he who is forgiven little, loves little."

 

[Philthy]

What does it mean, Philthy, to judge a person’s words and actions?

In the context of this discussion it means looking objectively ( ie, independent of a determination of whether their motive for those actions are pure and independent of a knowledge of the life circumstances that promoted those actions) at those words and actions and deeming them consistent with love, neutral with respect to love, or contrary to love.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

In the context of this discussion it means looking objectively ( ie, independent of a determination of whether their motive for those actions are pure and independent of a knowledge of the life circumstances that promoted those actions) at those words and actions and deeming them consistent with love, neutral with respect to love, or contrary to love.

Yes, that makes sense to me.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Not only that, but we have gone full circle back to Matt 6:

Forgive us our trespasses as (ie, in the manner we do, or perhaps since we do) we forgive those who trespass against us.

…

I think i understand you, Philthy. Are you saying that Jesus instructs us to pray that God will forgive us the same way that we forgive others?