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Philthy
Guest
Yes.
Jesus (God in man form) forgave unconditionally *as one man forgives another. *
Our Father in Heaven forgives conditionally.
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Jesus (God in man form) forgave unconditionally *as one man forgives another. *
Our Father in Heaven forgives conditionally.
S
Socrates4Jesus
Guest
Are you not ashamed, then, for accusing God the Father of being a hypocrite?
For a hypocrite, you tell me, is one who says, “Do as I say, not as I do!” and you are claiming that God the Father is requiring God the Son to forgive as He says, not as He does.
Y
YinYangMom
Guest
I think I’m beginning to see your distinctions. Though I don’t see where Jesus says we should only forgive conditionally.
Are you saying my third option of offering forgiveness to those who refuse to repent as a gift is not something Jesus would approve of?
I can see that He never said we were obliged to forgive others without their request for our forgiveness.
But He never said we could not forgive others without their request for our forgiveness.
What He said was that if I knock He will answer. If I ask, it will be granted.
Do you believe Jesus would deny me my request to forgive those who offended me but failed to repent?
If I’m obliged to forgive someone **only **when they seek my forgiveness, does that mean I’m obliged to carry all that baggage when they don’t until I die? Is there any prohibition to my forgiving those who offend me without their asking for it first? Or are you viewing that as my being ‘merciful’?
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YinYangMom
Guest
If you really want to rely on that distinction between Jesus (God as man) and God, then As Christians, aren’t we called to imitate Christ?
So that as Jesus (God in man form) forgave unconditionally, so should we.
I suppose with your reasoning it is possible that God may choose not to forgive the very offense we forgive others but we won’t know that until we die.
S
Socrates4Jesus
Guest
YYMom:
You ask some great questions! I don’t have all the answers, but i will give you what i know. In answer to you first question, please consider this passage from St. Luke’s gospel:
Jesus said to his disciples: "Things that cause people to sin are bound to come, but woe to that person through whom they come. It would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around his neck than for him to cause one of these little ones to sin. So watch yourselves.
“If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, ‘I repent,’ forgive him.”
(Luke 17:1-4)
In this passage, YYMom, i see Jesus instructing His disciples to forgive conditionally, for He says, “if he repents, forgive him.” I’m not saying this is the only condition, but it does show me that forgiveness is a conditionally kind of love.
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Socrates4Jesus
Guest
This is a fascinating idea and one i have not considered. When a person wrongs me, i ask God to help the person change. I ask Him to change the circumstances of the person’s life to give Him a desire to change, the way He changed the circumstances of the life of the lost son in Jesus’ parable. In that parable, the lost son did not have a desire to change until he went broke and found himself feeding pigs to survive. I also ask God to bring people into the life of the person who wronged me to convince him to change. I’ve seen God do both in the lives of those who have wronged me.
I find this passage helpful:
And the Lord’s servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.
(2 Timothy 2:24-26)
St. Paul’s advice to the young priest Timothy is that he pray that those who oppose him repent so that “they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.”
Praying that God will forgive someone who does not want God’s forgiveness i think is a good idea. My guess, however, is that God will answer such a prayer by working in the life of the person to get him to want the forgiveness for himself as much as you do.
I’ve read all of the Bible a few times through and have never found an example where God has forgiven someone who continually refuses to repent. If you find such a passage, please point it out to me.
S
Socrates4Jesus
Guest
I think with tears in His eyes he will say that he could not forgive the person who refused to be forgiven. God never forces anyone to accept His love, i think, including the love of forgiveness. Jesus still prays today, i’m certain, and says something similar to what He said to the people of Jerusalem:
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.”
(Matthew 23:37)
I believe God cries with you and me, YYMom, when we pray for those who refuse to repent. He wants to forgive them as much as we want Him too, but the sad fact is that some stubbornly are not willing to repent and be forgiven.
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Socrates4Jesus
Guest
No, YYMom, you don’t have to become bitter, though i think it is appropriate to be sad. You don’t have to be unkind to the person who refuses to seek forgiveness. You just cannot pardon the sin and cancel his debt and restore your relationship with him until he does change his mind and actions.
If a violent man harms you, for example, you don’t pardon him, you call the police and have him arrested. You testify against him in court. However, if he were to repent of his violence, and prove his repentance is genuine by his actions, it might be good to not call the police. Forgiveness is something that often is not easy to do. There is a certain risk in forgiving to the point of trusting a person. Still, loving in such a complete way is a risk God takes with many of us and every day.
Mercy, however, is easy compared to forgiveness (not easier to do but easier to know when to do). For mercy is loving unconditionally by being compassionate and ready to forgive. I try to show mercy by loving a person in every way i can EXCEPT pardoning the person for his sin, trusting the person, and restoring my relationship with him. When a person sins, and knows he has sinned, repentance is required for me to forgive him this way.
However, as you pointed out, Jesus also prayed, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.” So, if a person sins and does not know what he did was wrong, i believe this ignorance is another condition a person can meet to be forgiven.
Hence, these are two conditions i have found that a person might meet to receive forgiveness: (1) not knowing what he did was wrong or (2) knowing what he did was wrong but repenting of that sinful behavior. A person does not have to meet both conditions before i pardon him for his sin and restore my relationship with him; he only has to meet one of these conditions. There might be other conditions as well besides these two.
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Socrates4Jesus
Guest
We are called to imitate God, and both Christ and the Father are God.
Be imitators of God, therefore, as dearly loved children and live a life of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.
(Ephesians 5:1-2)
Since they are both God, can they contradict one another by forgiving in different ways (one conditionally and one unconditionally)?
C
clmowry
Guest
Your continued belief that we can forgive like God who knows all things and can see into a man’s heart aside, how do you reconcile your interpretation of this verse as placing a requirement of repentance on our forgiveness of one another with those verses which allow for no such requirement?
Does Christ contradict himself, or are you reading a condition into the verse that was not implied?
Working towards the santification of our neighbor is an act of mercy that we are told to perforom repeatedly in scripture. This, I believe, is what the “conditional” forgiveness verse is pointing us toward. It is not an instruction “not to forgive until”. It is an instruction to “forgive and.”
If I follow your interpretation of this verse, then I am also required by other verses not to pray to God again until all who have sinned against me repent. Why would that make any sense?
Chuck
Does Christ contradict himself, or are you reading a condition into the verse that was not implied?
Working towards the santification of our neighbor is an act of mercy that we are told to perforom repeatedly in scripture. This, I believe, is what the “conditional” forgiveness verse is pointing us toward. It is not an instruction “not to forgive until”. It is an instruction to “forgive and.”
If I follow your interpretation of this verse, then I am also required by other verses not to pray to God again until all who have sinned against me repent. Why would that make any sense?
Chuck
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Socrates4Jesus
Guest
Chuck:
I have been reading the Bible a little every day for many years now. I am unaware of any passage of Scripture that states we are to forgive those who refuse to repent, but perhaps i missed something. Will you point one out to me, please?
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Socrates4Jesus
Guest
My point to Phil, Chuck, was that if God the Son forgives those who refuse to repent, then He is forgiving in the exact opposite way that God the Father forgives. I think it is reasonable to say that the Father (who is God) and the Son (who is also God) forgive with exactly the same method. That is, since God the Father requires a person to repent God the Son requires a person to repent as well. Or since God the Father forgives those who do not know they have sinned, God the Son forgives those who do not know they have sinned as well.
Do you think it is not a contradiction to say that the Father forgives conditionally, the Son forgives unconditionally, and they are both the same God? If not, please explain why not.
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Socrates4Jesus
Guest
Out of the unconditional love of mercy i should continue to pray for those who have wronged me and who still refuse to repent. This is in fact what i actually do now. Out of conditional love i wait for God to bring them to repentance so that i will be able to forgive him. St. Paul said:
Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness leads you toward repentance?
(Romans 2:4)
And the first Pope said:
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
(2 Peter 3:9)
I want what the Lord wants. I want those who are living a life committed to sin to turn from their sin to Him. I want them to repent so that God will finally be able to forgive them. I want them to repent so that i will finally be able to forgive them, too. Then the Lord’s sorrow and mine will turn to joy. Like the father in Jesus’ parable of the lost son, we will embrace the one who repents with tears of gladness in our eyes.
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Philthy
Guest
No I dont think it is hypocritical for God to distinguish Himself from his creation. You and I are not God. God rightly distinguishes Himself from humanity. At the same time, God BECAME ONE OF US, and that is the example (Jesus) that we are to follow. So God can say “Do as I do in the context of humanity” and not be critical at all. I think it is incredible that He humbled himself to become fully human for our sake, before we repented.
Does the clay have a right to ask the Potter, “Why have you made me so?”
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Philthy
Guest
This would only be true if forgiveness by a human were identical to the forgiveness of God. As I have repeatedly demonstrated, they are not the same. No human, by virtue of “forgiving” another human restores the relationship between God and that sinner. ONLY GOD CAN DO THAT THROUGH HIS FORGIVENESS.
Forgiveness by God does not equal forgiveness by a human, therefore the requirements of forgiveness by God do not equal the requirements of forgiveness by a human.
Let me give you another point to consider since you seem to enjoy the purely analytical approach:
Jesus said “IF you do not forgive the sins of others, THEN God will not forgive you”
Now if a person refuses to repent and - according to your logic - we CANT forgive them, then, as a result GOD CANT FORGIVE US. That makes NO SENSE, Soc, none whatsoever.
Y
YinYangMom
Guest
I see what you see.
But notice He doesn’t say that’s the only condition for forgiving someone, but that it is one condition.
What this really says is that if someone repents to me and I do not forgive that person I would be going against the teaching of Jesus.
But what if I choose to forgive someone without that person asking it of me first? Perhaps that’s a second condition He did not spell out?
It would seem possible, I suppose, for me to forgive someone and not the Lord.
I’ve been giving it a lot of thought since your brought it up.
God is the only one who can judge.
It seems even in that passage and others where Jesus speaks of repentence and forgiveness and such, He still defers the final judgement to the Father. He doesn’t say “I will not forgive”, but He does warn everyone that there are not good consequences for those who upset the Father and pretty much implies strongly that it is the Father who will make any final determination.
Perhaps that is why, as you distinguished, Jesus (God made man) forgives unconditionally, while God forgives conditionally.
So, let’s take the axe murderer who kills my loved one or a husband who runs off and marries another woman.
I can choose to forgive both offenders, find peace in my heart (basically by saying, Lord, I forgive them but will leave their fate in your hands), and move on with my life unburdened by hate, resentment, anger, pain. Can’t I?
Whether or not the murderer or my husband are forgiven by God is between them and God. I suppose my act of forgiveness does not necessarily mean God will forgive them on my behalf. Perhaps for them to receive His forgiveness they still have other steps to take. But for my part, they receive my forgiveness without having to ask for it.
**My **forgiveness is something for **me **to grant. The only requirement scripture lays out for me is that I must grant the forgiveness if someone repents to me. It does not say I cannot choose to offer it as a gift unconditionally.
Y
YinYangMom
Guest
This is a wonderful thing you do. It is quite merciful on your part.
I take it one step further. While I ask Him to help the offender change through the Spirit and through others God would bring into their lives, I also ask God to change me.
I ask Him to help me let go of the hurt and pain this offender caused me. I ask Him to take all that upon Himself so that I may find peace in my heart to still love the offender as a person in the image and likeness of God. I ask Him to help me forgive the person even though they aren’t seeking it and don’t really deserve it.
At the right time, the Lord answers my prayers with regard to me. I find myself at incredible peace. If I think about the offense it no longer hangs on my heart. It no longer gets my blood boiling, it no longer brings a lump to my throat. These are physical signs I receive from Him assuring me He has granted my request for peace and that He has the matter in His hands.
This frees me from pain and anxiety that I did not bring upon myself. Why should I suffer with that burden the rest of my days on earth if doing so makes my heart heavy and leads me to become bitter in my outlook on life and God?
The Lord tells me I should lay the burdens I receive at His feet. He invites me to share His yoke. It seems to me that insisting on bearing the burden all by myself would express a lack of trust in Him.
Yes, I see that. It is clear that person must do something to receive God’s forgiveness. As Christians we pray for sinners that they may be moved to seek forgiveness from the Father. But Paul still doesn’t say whether or not Timothy is bound to harbor the offense against the person until the offender repents to God.
Paul does tell him not to harbor resentment. Therein lies the key for me which moves me to ask the Lord to help me forgive those who have hurt me. If I do not forgive the offense and the offender then how do I not harbor resentment toward the offender for the offense? Is it even possible?
Yes, that is my guess also. That person will probably need to do something in order to receive God’s forgiveness, but in the meantime I have given him mine. The debt between him and me is paid as far as I am concerned. Should he arrive at my doorstep one day seeking my forgiveness I can truthfully say “I forgave you years ago. Seek forgiveness from the Lord and be at peace.”
I doubt it is there. But again, we are speaking about our human capacity to forgive separate from God’s capacity to forgive.
Your initial question was:
My answer is that is up to you. You may choose to forgive her unconditionally. You may choose to set conditions upon her before you forgive her. However,** if** she one day comes to you and seeks your forgiveness, you are obliged to forgive her at that time, whether or not you are emotionally, physically, or spiritually ready to do so.
Had you asked: What conditions must someone meet before God should forgive her? Then that would bring about different responses.
You say you are trying to imitate God and this is why you posed the question the way you did. But we are not God. He is the only one capable of judging a person’s heart. We are called to imitate Jesus Christ, who, as you already noted, did forgive unconditionally when He was on earth. This is why you have the option today to forgive her unconditionally.
Y
YinYangMom
Guest
You may be right. But again, God’s forgiveness is His to grant, whether because I seek it on behalf of others or whether those others seek it themselves from Him.
YOUR forgiveness and MY forgiveness are ours to grant. I believe we are free to choose to forgive conditionally or unconditionally, except if someone comes to us asking our forgiveness, then we’re bound to forgive.
Which presents my other motivation for forgiving others unconditionally.
Take the husband who ran off with another woman, has children and a prosperous life with that new family, while neglecting to or not being obliged legally to ensure that me and the children I bore with him are financially secure.
That hurts and it breaks commandments.
Say I struggle for 10 years working 2 jobs so that the kids can have a decent life.
One day in that 10th year my ex-husband calls, writes, or shows up at my doorstep saying he’s evaluating his life and realizes he had wronged me all those years, apologizes and asks for my forgiveness. He does not offer to pay me money from that day forward, nor would any of that matter since the physical and economic burden on me and the kids the past ten years can’t be undone with money today.
I have to forgive him.
That forgiveness **has **to be sincere.
From that moment on I can no longer hold any resentment, anger, frustration, anything negative against him when the thought of him comes to mind.
At the wedding of my children, I must be free to walk down the aisle before him and his wife with a smile on my lips and in my heart.
Now, if I could not bring myself to forgive my husband in years 1-9 on my own - without requiring any conditions on him - how am I expected to suddenly ‘let go’ of all of that just because he asks me in year 10?
By working on myself during years 1-9, asking God to help me forgive my ex-husband without anything from him, I may be able to truly forgive my ex in year 4, so that by the time he arrives at my door at year 10 (probably because, as you suggested, others and the Spirit were working on him moving him to finally seek repentence), I can honestly and sincerely tell him, “I forgave you 6 years ago. Seek forgiveness from the Lord and be at peace.”
Y
YinYangMom
Guest
Sadness, over time, weighs heavy on a person’s heart though. It takes up space there where only love should reside.
Where in scripture does it say I cannot pardon the sin and cancel his debt?
As for restoring trust and the relationship, heck, why would I want to? Those are separate issues beyond forgiveness. Forgiveness does not automatically require me to rebuild trust and any relationships. It opens the door for such healing to take place but there are others ways I can heal without rebuilding that broken relationship.
Many saints pardoned those who persecuted them.
I can most certainly pardon the killer of my daughter even as justice is being carried out - whether it be his serving a life sentence or meeting the death penalty.
I do not need him to ask me for his forgiveness in order for me to extend my gift of forgiveness.
God probably requires him to do something in order to receive His forgiveness, though.
Forgiveness and justice are not related like that.
If a man murders my daughter but repents to me and prove his repentance by actions, you are suggesting I not call the police?
That makes no sense.
The proper action for his repentance would be for him to not run as I call the police, to respond “guilty” to the charges, to accept his sentence according to the law without having a lawyer appeal and delay carrying out of the sentence.
Forgiveness is never easy to do.
Thus the value it carries when given as a gift.
What is that parable about the woman who puts a penny into the collection bin and the man who puts $200 into the bin (it wasn’t in dollars or course)? Doesn’t Jesus say that because the penny was all the woman had to give, while the $200 was but a penny to the man, God appreciates the gift of the woman more and loves her for it?
If it takes everything in my physical, emotional and spiritual being to allow God to enable me to truly and sincerely forgive my offender - without setting any conditions upon him - do you not think God would be pleased with me? Not only for desiring to forgive the person, but for actually allowing God to let me do so?
If you are ready to forgive, why not just forgive then?
Why wait for any action on the part of the offender?
Does waiting bring you closer to God?
That’s an ‘easy’ act, though.
Doesn’t Jesus call us to do the ‘hard’ things in life?
Doesn’t he appreciate our actions when they lead us to die to ourselves in order to bring the actions about?
Forgiving, when it is not required, is a way we die to ourselves for the greater good.
You backstepped again.
A third option does exist.
If the purpose of this discussion is to help you imitate Christ, then you must spend some time reflecting upon this third option.
Is the third option a requirement? No.
All the more reason to work toward choosing the third option.
Because it is not required of us, but is an outward sign of our love for all God’s people, I submit God would appreciate this gift of ours extended on His behalf.
I do not see that God would hold it against us or punish us for it.
Can you see that as a possibility?
J
JaneFrances
Guest
I pray that as you read Sacred Scripture today, though you have read it many times before, that the Spirit gives you new eyes to see and keen ears to hear the truth of the Word proclaimed.
It is a dangerous requirement to demand that every good and holy thing you should do must be specifically exemplified in the Bible. For, as we know, Jesus did and said a great many things which are not recorded in Sacred Scripture. To be sure, the Bible is true, holy, useful and profitable, but it does not provide commentary or specifications for every action of a Christian. It is the Spirit who searches everything and moves us to act in freedom and love.
So, while there is no passage, to my knowledge, which would meet all of your particular conditions, we do have numerous passages in Sacred Scripture which provide sufficient evidence that Jesus Christ forgives sinners in spite of their inadequacies and shortcomings. One example is the woman in Luke’s gospel. . .
This woman, though obviously deeply troubled by her sin, does not express an audible contrition nor does she ask for forgiveness. Instead, she approaches Jesus to annoint him, though she is a known sinner, and Jesus forgives her of her sins. Here’s the account:
Note, please, Jesus does not say “Because you have adequately met the requirements for repentance, your sins are forgiven.” Nor does the Savior say “Your ignorance has saved you, go in peace.”
Instead, He grants this sinful woman forgiveness and by grace she is infused with the transformative love of her Lord.
We do not know if this woman was fully repentant. We do not know if she was in any way ignorant of her sin. We do know, however, that Jesus forgave her in spite of herself as a function of Love and the cause of it.
Thus, we, as imitators of Christ, are called out of Chrisitan charity to forgive those who sin against us. We are not bound by law or required to forgive others as a contractual exchange. Instead, by grace, we forgive in freedom. We forgive those who sin against us because of Love. We do not ignore the sin. We do not forget the sin. We do not act as though it never happened. In Love through Christ, we forgive others in spite of themselves and in spite of their shortcomings in repentance. We forgive in freedom–freeing ourselves and releasing others to the perfect love, mercy and justice of the Almighty.
Yin Yang Mom put it very well. We forgive as a gift freely given. The strings we attach, whether permissable or not, are the strings which continue to bind our own hearts.
God alone knows man’s heart. God alone knows man’s contrition. God alone knows man’s culpability. God alone knows man’s love.
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