Forgiveness FAQ

[clmowry]

Show me where is says “explicitly” that “you” are “not” to forgive those who do not repent!

You are not answering the question I’ve asked.

You claim that we should forgive like God and that God forgives conditionally and that the bible tells you this is correct.

I say you are reading this into your interpretation of the bible.

Christ Says:

“When you stand to pray, forgive anyone against whom
you have a grievance, so that your heavenly Father may
in turn forgive you your transgressions.”

How can you reconcile this with not forgiving those who do not repent? If you believe that you should not forgive someone who does not repent, then you are allowing someone else to prevent you from receiving the gift of forgiveness from your Father.

It doesn’t say here, forgive those who have repented but don’t forgive those who have not. It says “forgive anyone whom you have a grievance against”.

Either your interpretation is incorrect, or the Word of God is contradicting Himself.

Further, your interpretation clearly contradicts commands not to Judge, for example:

“Do not speak evil against one another, brethren.
He that speaks evil against a brother or judges his brother,
speaks evil against the law and judges the law. But if you judge
the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge. There is one
lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But
who are you that you judge your neighbor?”

“You judge according to the flesh, I judge no one.
Yet even if I do judge, my judgment is true,
for it is not I alone that judge, but I and he who sent me.”

Perhaps this will help.

Do you think that God forgives you “because” you repent?

Or has He already forgiven you and your repentance is simply the acceptance of that free gift?

Chuck

 

[YinYangMom]

Since they are both God, can they contradict one another by forgiving in different ways (one conditionally and one unconditionally)?

They aren’t contradicting each other. They’re just different ways of achieving the same thing.
God gave the power to judge to Jesus the son.
Thus He will come to earth again in glory to judge the living and the dead.

While Jesus was on earth the first time, however, according to scripture, He seems to defer judgement to the Father. All His teachings to us about repentance and foreshadowing of the day of judgement speaks to another doling out the consequences for failing to heed the warnings.

He never says, “If you do not repent I will not forgive you”. He sidesteps the ‘who’ rendering the judgement, if you notice, except when He specifically names the Father as the one who will hold it against us.

If we understand the purpose for God made flesh as His way of showing us, by example, what man of the flesh is capable of doing **with **the grace of God, then when Jesus said, “Forgiven them Father” even though they did not ask Him personally for forgiveness, then we are capable of uttering the same prayer.

You would submit this type of forgiveness falls under the “ignorance” clause, but did all of it really?
Remembering that not every detail is present in scripture leaves open the possibility that there were several people who did, indeed, know what they were doing when they participated in bringing Jesus to His death.
Jesus did not say “Forgive, Father, only those who did not know what they were doing”, thus we cannot say with absolute certainty that those who DID know what they were doing were not forgiven WITH those who did not.

 

[YinYangMom]

We are called to imitate God, and both Christ and the Father are God. Be imitators of God, therefore, as dearly loved children and live a life of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.

(Ephesians 5:1-2)

I submit to you:

There is no greater love than to lay one’s life for another.

The act of forgiving others for harming us, despite all the pain and suffering, **without **their deserving our forgiveness or even seeking it, **is **a form of dying to oneself.

Certainly you have the right to withhold the forgiveness.
You may even desire to hold on to the transgression until they come to you personally seeking forgiveness.
But you are allowed to release the debt out of love without demanding any sort of payment.

You say mercy moves you to feel sad for the transgressor.
Mercy, can then move you to express love for all of God’s people, even those who are undeserving of such love.

We know God is love.
We know His mercy is unfathomable.
We know He cannot deny forgiveness to anyone who repents.
But do we know He cannot grant forgiveness to those who do not?

We are told God is not limited by our rules or the rules He sets forth for us. Thus the Catholic church knows she cannot claim with any certainty who is or is not in hell, remember? You and I, then, cannot ever know whether or not God has forgiven our transgressors.

What if the murderer seeks forgiveness from Our Father without first having sought it from us?

God would forgive them and here you and I are, walking around the earth, still holding the transgression against us. What would be the point in that?

 

[YinYangMom]

My point to Phil, Chuck, was that if God the Son forgives those who refuse to repent, then He is forgiving in the exact opposite way that God the Father forgives.

Or that God the Son forgives in an **additional **way than God the Father.
It is not necessarily an “either, or”.

 

[YinYangMom]

I am unaware of any passage of Scripture that states we are to forgive those who refuse to repent…

Is there any passage which states we are forbidden to forgive those who refuse to repent?

 

[YinYangMom]

I want what the Lord wants. I want those who are living a life committed to sin to turn from their sin to Him. I want them to repent so that God will finally be able to forgive them. I want them to repent so that i will finally be able to forgive them, too. Then the Lord’s sorrow and mine will turn to joy. Like the father in Jesus’ parable of the lost son, we will embrace the one who repents with tears of gladness in our eyes.

No offense, but the Lord does not need your help in order for His sorrow to turn to joy for any soul.

Your statement implies the Lord cannot forgive the trangressor unless the transgressor seeks your personal forgiveness and receives it.

The Lord wants you to be at peace. He knows that when you forgive others peace will be upon you.

“forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin against us”

What if a person you offended moves away to another country, not leaving a forwarding address and there is no way to track him down, before you have a chance to go to him to seek his forgiveness?

Could you not utter a prayer to Our Lord such as:

Dear God,
You are all-loving and merciful.
I have wronged my brother but am unable to seek his forgiveness directly.
Please look into my heart to know the sorrow I carry for this offense and forgive me for my transgression.
Please move the heart of the person I wronged to forgive me as well, even though I can never ask it of him myself.
Through your love I believe my cry for forgiveness from him will be heard.
In Jesus’ name I ask this of you and beg for your mercy.
Amen.

Do you believe God would be forced to deny such a request because you did not meet the requirement of physically seeking the man’s forgiveness? Do you honestly believe you will carry that transgression to your deathbed?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Thank you everyone for all of your responses. I don’t have time to read them with the attention they deserve, right now. I’ll reply as soon as i do.

Embrace the grace!
Soc

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Socrates4Jesus forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
*Are you not ashamed, then, for accusing God the Father of being a hypocrite? *

For a hypocrite, you tell me, is one who says, “Do as I say, not as I do!” and you are claiming that God the Father is requiring God the Son to forgive as He says, not as He does.

No I dont think it is hypocritical for God to distinguish Himself from his creation. You and I are not God. God rightly distinguishes Himself from humanity. At the same time, God BECAME ONE OF US, and that is the example (Jesus) that we are to follow. So God can say “Do as I do in the context of humanity” and not be critical at all. I think it is incredible that He humbled himself to become fully human for our sake, before we repented.
Does the clay have a right to ask the Potter, “Why have you made me so?”

Are you not now doubly ashamed, Phil? For you are not only saying that the Father requires the Son to not follow His example. You are also accusing the Son of deception! Please, Phil, stop thinking about what you are going to say next and listen to the Son’s words:

Jesus gave them this answer: “I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.”(John 5:19)Please ask the Son what He meant when He said, “Whatever the Father does the Son also does.” Ask Him if whatever includes the way He forgives.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

I see what you see.
But notice He doesn’t say that’s the only condition for forgiving someone, but that it is one condition.

What this really says is that if someone repents to me and I do not forgive that person I would be going against the teaching of Jesus.

But what if I choose to forgive someone without that person asking it of me first? Perhaps that’s a second condition He did not spell out?
…

Absolutely, YYMom! I agree that no one who claims to follow Jesus has the right to withhold forgiveness from a person who sincerely repents. Those who truly repent should receive a complete pardon for their sins. There is no judgement with forgiveness.

I think that unless a person is guilty of being unrepentant beyond a reasonable doubt, i should give him the benefit of the doubt and pardon him for his sin. As a wise man i know says, “If i must err, it is always better to err on the side of grace.”

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

… God is the only one who can judge. It seems even in that passage and others where Jesus speaks of repentence and forgiveness and such, He still defers the final judgement to the Father. He doesn’t say “I will not forgive”, but He does warn everyone that there are not good consequences for those who upset the Father and pretty much implies strongly that it is the Father who will make any final determination. Perhaps that is why, as you distinguished, Jesus (God made man) forgives unconditionally, while God forgives conditionally. …

Thank you for all your thoughtful replies, YYMom.

I think you might agree that what seems to be the truth is not always the truth. For example, you said that “it seems … Jesus … still defers the final judgement to the Father.” This, however, is not the truth, for Jesus says:

“Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son…”(John 5:19)The Father entrusts all judgement to Jesus. Jesus will come again to judge the living and the dead, and His kingdom will have no end. Jesus will return not just as God, but also as man, and when Jesus judges, Jesus will not forgive, for judgement is the opposite of forgiving. I’m sure Jesus’ judgement will be just and merciful, but not forgiving. Of course, i’m certain He will, upon His return, forgive (rather than judge) those who have repented prior to His second coming.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

I pray that as you read Sacred Scripture today, though you have read it many times before, that the Spirit gives you new eyes to see and keen ears to hear the truth of the Word proclaimed. …

Jane, so good to see your replies, again! That is my prayer for myself, too. It is one i pray often.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

…

Quote:36Now one of the Pharisees invited Jesus to have dinner with him, so he went to the Pharisee’s house and reclined at the table. 37When a woman who had lived a sinful life in that town learned that Jesus was eating at the Pharisee’s house, she brought an alabaster jar of perfume, 38and as she stood behind him at his feet weeping, she began to wet his feet with her tears. Then she wiped them with her hair, kissed them and poured perfume on them. 39When the Pharisee who had invited him saw this, he said to himself, “If this man were a prophet, he would know who is touching him and what kind of woman she is—that she is a sinner.” 40Jesus answered him, “Simon, I have something to tell you.” “Tell me, teacher,” he said. 41"Two men owed money to a certain moneylender. One owed him five hundred denarii,[d] and the other fifty. 42Neither of them had the money to pay him back, so he canceled the debts of both. Now which of them will love him more?" 43Simon replied, “I suppose the one who had the bigger debt canceled.” “You have judged correctly,” Jesus said. 44Then he turned toward the woman and said to Simon, “Do you see this woman? I came into your house. You did not give me any water for my feet, but she wet my feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair. 45You did not give me a kiss, but this woman, from the time I entered, has not stopped kissing my feet. 46You did not put oil on my head, but she has poured perfume on my feet. 47Therefore, I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven—for she loved much. But he who has been forgiven little loves little.” 48Then Jesus said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.” 49The other guests began to say among themselves, “Who is this who even forgives sins?” 50Jesus said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.” This woman, though obviously deeply troubled by her sin, does not express an audible contrition nor does she ask for forgiveness. Instead, she approaches Jesus to annoint him, though she is a known sinner, and Jesus forgives her of her sins.

… Note, please, Jesus does not say “Because you have adequately met the requirements for repentance, your sins are forgiven.” Nor does the Savior say “Your ignorance has saved you, go in peace.”

Instead, He grants this sinful woman forgiveness and by grace she is infused with the transformative love of her Lord.

We do not know if this woman was fully repentant. We do not know if she was in any way ignorant of her sin. We do know, however, that Jesus forgave her in spite of herself as a function of Love and the cause of it. …

Jane:

If you do not know whether she repented, then how can you say this is an example of forgiving someone who refuses to repent? It’s not good to base one’s belief on an argument from ignorance.

My thought is that the woman’s actions of weeping over her own sin at the feet of Jesus were proof enough that she repented of her sin of prostitution. The fact that she stopped selling her body and became one of Jesus’ followers tells me that she proved her repentance by her actions.

Is it your opinion that she did not repent but continued to live the life of a prostitute?

 

[DrPiano]

So I’ve been following the thread closely even in my “absence” and I’ve noticed that there are a couple of passages that keep getting overlooked. So I’d like to throw a few of these into the mix.

The first is a possible example of where Jesus forgave without requiring repentance. Its told in 3 of the 4 gospels, and its the story of Jesus healing the Paralytic Man. It’s found in Matthew 9:1-8, Mark 2:1-12, and Luke 5:17-26. For the sake of simplicity, I’m only going to quote one:

17One day as he was teaching, Pharisees and teachers of the law, who had come from every village of Galilee and from Judea and Jerusalem, were sitting there. And the power of the Lord was present for him to heal the sick. 18Some men came carrying a paralytic on a mat and tried to take him into the house to lay him before Jesus. 19When they could not find a way to do this because of the crowd, they went up on the roof and lowered him on his mat through the tiles into the middle of the crowd, right in front of Jesus.
20When Jesus saw their faith, he said, “Friend, your sins are forgiven.” 21The Pharisees and the teachers of the law began thinking to themselves, “Who is this fellow who speaks blasphemy? Who can forgive sins but God alone?” 22Jesus knew what they were thinking and asked, “Why are you thinking these things in your hearts? 23Which is easier: to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up and walk’? 24But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins…” He said to the paralyzed man, “I tell you, get up, take your mat and go home.” 25Immediately he stood up in front of them, took what he had been lying on and went home praising God. 26Everyone was amazed and gave praise to God. They were filled with awe and said, “We have seen remarkable things today.”

Now, Socrates, I’d be interested to know where it says here that the man repented. If Jesus gave ANY reason for forgiving his sins, it was that his Friends had Faith.

And here is another passage that has been brought up by others, but I haven’t really seen you comment on it. Its Mark 11:22-25

22"Have faith in God," Jesus answered. 23"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. 24Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. 25And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins."

Here, Jesus says “If you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven my forgive you your sins.” There doesn’t seem to be anything here like “If you hold anything against anyone who has repented, forgive him…” Its just “anyone”.

Also, lately I’ve been thinking about Matthew 5:38-48 and Luke 6:27-41. I may post more fully on these two passages, but in essence they are the “turn the other cheek” sections. Lately I’ve been thinking that perhaps we are even being too stingy with our trust… After all, we are supposed to walk the extra mile…

Those are my thoughts for now (at the risk of being sucked in again…)

 

[YinYangMom]

If you do not know whether she repented, then how can you say this is an example of forgiving someone who refuses to repent?

Jane did not say it was an example of forgiving someone who refuses to repent. Nor did she imply a belief that the woman returned to a life of prostitution.

For you to then charge her with ignorance is uncharitable and insulting.

Read Jane’s words again:

This woman, though obviously deeply troubled by her sin, does not express an audible contrition nor does she ask for forgiveness.

Jane is not reading anything into the passage, she is accurately stating what the passage reveals.

We do not know if this woman was fully repentant. We do not know if she was in any way ignorant of her sin.

Again, Jane is correct. The passage does not tell us if the woman was fully repentant or if she was in any way ignorant of her sin (the two conditions you believe must be met in order to receive God’s forgiveness).

Read the passage again:

37When a woman who had lived a sinful life in that town learned that Jesus was eating at the Pharisee’s house, she brought an alabaster jar of perfume, 38and as she stood behind him at his feet weeping, she began to** wet his feet with her tears**. Then she wiped them with her hair, kissed them and poured perfume on them.

The word ‘prostitute’ does not appear anywhere.
The word ‘repentance’ does not appear anywhere.
She utters not a single word by which we could discern anything about her thoughts or her heart.

44Then he turned toward the woman and said to Simon, “Do you see this woman? I came into your house. You did not give me any water for my feet, but she wet my feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair. 45You did not give me a kiss, but this woman, from the time I entered, has not stopped kissing my feet. 46You did not put oil on my head, but she has poured perfume on my feet. 47Therefore, I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven—for she loved much. But he who has been forgiven little loves little.”
48Then Jesus said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.”

There is no indication she repented.
What is revealed is that she loved much.

Consider also the parable of the moneylender Jesus tells:

1. 
   *]where in those passages does it say the men who owed the debts repented for those debts or even asked that they be canceled?
   *]Where does it say the moneylender set conditions on the two men **in order that **he would cancel their debts?
   *]Where in the passage does Jesus say the moneylender was wrong to cancel both debts?
   Now, I ask you…which action do you believe Jesus would value more as a demonstration of your love for Him:
   
   Forgiving someone who repents to you as **you are obliged **to do (according to the law or scripture)
   or
   forgiving the person without their repentance when **you are not obliged **to do so, nor are you prohibited from doing so (according to the law or scripture)?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Show me where is says “explicitly” that “you” are “not” to forgive those who do not repent! …

“So watch yourselves. If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him.”
(Luke 17:3)

Chuck:

I don’t know if you have children. I have two sons. One son i give allowance when he does his chores. Lets say he asks me if he can have his allowance at the end of the week, and i reply, “Yes, if you do your chores.”

Now, my son is cleaver. At the end of the week he comes to me and the conversation goes like this:

Son: Dad, give me my allowance.

Soc: Did you do your chores?

Son: No.

Soc: Don’t you remember that i said, ‘If you do your chores i will give you your allowance’?

Son: Yes.

Soc: Then tell me why i should give you your allowance.

Son: Well, you said that if i do my chores i will get my allowance. But you did not say that if i do not do my chores i will not get my allowance. So give me my allowance!

Soc: (Laughing) Cleaver, but no, i’m not falling for it!
The same thing is going on here whenever i mention our Lord’s words in Luke 17. I say that Jesus said, “If he repents, forgive him” and the reply i’m given is, “Well, he did not say that if they do not repent you should not forgive them!”

Jesus’ statement in Luke 17 is an explicit statement to forgive those who repent, and the obvious implication is that i should not forgive those who refuse to repent. Just as i am under no obligation to pay my son’s allowance when he refuses to do his chores, so too i am under no obligation to forgive those who refuse to repent.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Chuck:

Imagine this conversation:

Chuck: Lord, I forgave him, even though I was pretty certain you would not.
Jesus: How did you know I would not?

Chuck: Well, he clearly understood that he had committed mortal sins.

Jesus: You know, don’t you, that no sin is too grave for me to forgive if the sinner will only repent of his sin and show his repentance by his actions?

Chuck: Yes, but he refused to repent. He told me this in no uncertain terms. But I forgave him anyway, just like you wanted me to.

Jesus: Are you so sure you were doing what I wanted?

Chuck: What do you mean?

Jesus: Don’t you remember that i said, “So watch yourselves. If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him”?

Chuck: Yes.

Jesus: Then tell me why did you forgive him when he refused to repent?

Chuck: Well, you said that if he repents I should forgive him. But you did not say that if he refuses to repent then I should not forgive him. So I forgave him!

Jesus: (laughing) Cleaver, but no, i’m not falling for it!

Chuck: What did I do wrong?

Jesus: Chuck, my son, don’t you remember that before I told you to forgive those who repent, I said, “So watch yourselves”?

Chuck: Yes, of course.

Jesus: And do you recall why I told you to watch yourself?

Chuck: No, please tell me, Lord.

Jesus: I said: “Things that cause people to sin are bound to come, but woe to that person through whom they come. It would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around his neck than for him to cause one of these little ones to sin.”

Chuck: I don’t understand.

Jesus: I told you to watch that you do not encourage one of these little ones of mine to sin. Don’t you see? By forgiving him when he had no intention of changing his behavior, you just encouraged him to continue to commit the atrocities.

Chuck: I had no idea, Lord.

Jesus: Do you love me, Chuck?

Chuck: Lord, you know that I do.

Jesus: Then lovingly care for my sheep and encourage them to repent.

Chuck: I will, Lord, please forgive me.

Jesus: (with warm affection in his voice) I do forgive you; now go and sin no more.

 

[Philthy]

Soc -

IMHO I dont think there is much more for me to contribute other than to say that you need to follow your heart in what God leads to do. Love is the standard by which we will be judged, not reason.
You continue to ignore the difference between God the Father and God the Son in your quest to forgive “as the Father forgives”. Your “dialogue” with Jesus is all in your head - nowhere does forgiving another person preclude you from simultaneously acting to move that person to repentance. That is a barrier of your own construction. The false dichotomy of “if I forgive unconditionally I encourage sinful behavior” is, ultimately, a fabrication of your own making. Lastly, you cannot ever make someone repent - that is the work of the holy Spirit.

 

[YinYangMom]

Wow, that conversation is nothing like the Jesus I’ve come to know in scripture or through the teachings of the church.

Jesus would never insult me by laughing in my face for giving a gift of mine to give on His behalf out of love.

Love one another as I have loved you.

There are not conditions attached to those instructions. Jesus never says He cannot or will not forgive a person who fails to repent. He does warn us not to test that theory out, however.

The question remains: WHERE IN SCRIPTURE DOES IT SAY WE ARE FORBIDDEN FROM FORGIVING OTHERS WITHOUT THEIR REPENTENCE?

“So watch yourselves. If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him.”
(Luke 17:3)

DOES NOT SAY THE GUY MUST REPENT. It says, IF a brother who sins repents **I am then obliged **to forgive him, whether I want to or not, whether I’m emotionally ready to or not. It must be granted.

Keep looking through scriptures to find the passages which specifically state we are never to extend our forgiveness unless and only unless our trangressors seek repentance.

The other thing I don’t like about your conversation with Jesus is that it presumes you are a priest or bishop - responsible for leading His sheep. It also presumes your forgiveness equals God’s.

It does not. Your forgiveness is separate from God’s. We’ve already proven that to you. Just because you forgive someone does not mean God forgives someone. Only the priest has that power through the sacrament of reconciliation.

Tread carefully in your desire to imitate Christ. There are aspects of your desire which border upon arrogance and pride - seeking to become Christ in such a manner that you assume His powers.

Before I continue in this discussion I must know:
Are you seeking a true understanding of Forgiveness or are you seeking to remain firm in your two conditions and desire only to try to change my mind?

If you would like to continue discussion the third condition for forgiveness (a gift freely given) then I’m happy to help you come to terms with that.

If you refuse to acknowledge the validity of that third option then I will move on. There is nothing I can contribute to your journey for growth in Christ if you refuse to acknowledge His will.

Forgive her. Do not wait for any action on her part. Just do it and be at peace already.

 

[JaneFrances]

Jane:

If you do not know whether she repented, then how can you say this is an example of forgiving someone who refuses to repent?

I never said that.

As Yin Yang Mom has already kindly pointed out, we do not know if the woman repented. Likewise, we have no Scriptural proof for a refusal to repent. The plain reading of the Scripture simply points to a woman who, in the presence of her Savior, is brought to tears as she performs an act of love.

The forgiveness the Savior offers the woman, by His own explanation, is a function and cause of Love. One can not read this Scripture and determine with any certainty that the woman had repented prior to her forgiveness or that she was ignorant of her sin.

It’s not good to base one’s belief on an argument from ignorance.

Mine was not an arguement from silence (nor ignorance, for that matter). Instead, I offered a plain rendering of a passage of Scripture which does not follow the rubric you demand it should.

My thought is that the woman’s actions of weeping over her own sin at the feet of Jesus were proof enough that she repented of her sin of prostitution.

I grant you that the woman’s weeping most probably is a function of being deeply troubled by her sin, especially as she is in the presence of her Lord and Savior. HOWEVER, your thoughts that her weeping is “proof enough” is not sufficient for absolute certainty.

This, again, brings us to the issue of how you can be certain of another person’s contrition/culpability enough to withhold forgiveness from them.

In the past, you have said that a person’s actions should be enough to prove their hearts. This is a nice sentiment and there is no doubt that a person’s actions are important. Yet, your perception of another person’s actions can be skewed by your own hurt and your own biases.

Your friend who makes good use of the quotation, “it is better to err on the side of grace” makes a wonderful point. Knowing that you are not God with all knowledge, perfect Mercy, Justice, and Love, and you are incapable of truly knowing a person’s heart in spite of outward appearances, it is better to err on the side of grace. Grace is a free, undeserved gift. To forgive another person freely whether or not you believe they deserve it or whether or not they have met all your prerequisites is surely nothing sort of an act of grace.

The fact that she stopped selling her body and became one of Jesus’ followers tells me that she proved her repentance by her actions.

I didn’t realize that there was another condition to add?

So, to list your current conditions: one must 1) be repentant, 2) ignorant, AND 3) prove it in order to warrant your forgiveness. Is that accurate?

Is it your opinion that she did not repent but continued to live the life of a prostitute?

I do not know the nature of all of this woman’s prior sins nor do I know whether or not she ever sinned again. I do not know whether or not she repented prior to her forgiveness. And neither do you.

 

[JaneFrances]

“So watch yourselves. If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him.”
(Luke 17:3)

Chuck:

I don’t know if you have children. I have two sons. One son i give allowance when he does his chores. Lets say he asks me if he can have his allowance at the end of the week, and i reply, “Yes, if you do your chores.”

Now, my son is cleaver. At the end of the week he comes to me and the conversation goes like this:

Son: Dad, give me my allowance.

Soc: Did you do your chores?

Son: No.

Soc: Don’t you remember that i said, ‘If you do your chores i will give you your allowance’?

Son: Yes.

Soc: Then tell me why i should give you your allowance.

Son: Well, you said that if i do my chores i will get my allowance. But you did not say that if i do not do my chores i will not get my allowance. So give me my allowance!

Soc: (Laughing) Cleaver, but no, i’m not falling for it!
The same thing is going on here whenever i mention our Lord’s words in Luke 17. I say that Jesus said, “If he repents, forgive him” and the reply i’m given is, “Well, he did not say that if they do not repent you should not forgive them!”

Jesus’ statement in Luke 17 is an explicit statement to forgive those who repent, and the obvious implication is that i should not forgive those who refuse to repent. Just as i am under no obligation to pay my son’s allowance when he refuses to do his chores, so too i am under no obligation to forgive those who refuse to repent.

The logic here is natural. Yet, grace is supernatural.

Your payment to your son for work rendered satifies a contractual agreement between the two of you. He works, you pay.

Forgiveness between men is not contractual. Forgiveness is not a payment for work. It is grace. It is a gift given in freedom. Only God can apply absolute conditions for withholding grace as only God can truly know a man’s heart and mind. As St. Peter instructs, we are to be generous distributors of grace.

Your fictional dilalogues are interesting, but they miss the mark. You are reducing the Almighty to your experience of fatherhood. Instead, you are called to look aloft at the Father. God doesn’t laugh at us in our ignorance and pride. He does not mock us in our sin. He is all knowing. All powerful. All loving. All merciful. Perfect justice.

He forgives because of who He is. Perfect.

We forgive, by grace, because of who we are. Sinners.

And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins." Mark 11:25