Forgiveness FAQ

[YinYangMom]

Well, we at least agree that you and i should forgive conditionally; we just don’t agree that repentance is a condition a person should meet for you should to forgive him.

Are you saying, YYMom, that you only forgive those who love you and trust you to forgive them? Or do you think there are other conditions a person must meet before you forgive him?

To be perfectly honest, and I truly mean this…
I actually do forgive anyone who trespasses against me or my loved ones, whether or not they ask it of me.

It was not always like that, however. For many, many years I would hold onto hurts and struggle with being burdened emotionally as the result of matters which were out of my control.

I took it to Jesus at adoration, as I suggested you should as well, and within a year I just ‘knew’ that it was not my place to begrudge anyone on this earth, lest God may begrudge me when my time comes.

He assured me with the deepest peace that He’s got my back and He will be just when the time comes. In the meantime, my life was changed. I became a happier person, free to love others, even those who hurt me, because I know God loves them even though they hurt me and Him. I leave God’s decision about forgiveness between Him and my offenders.

In the meantime, I do pray for all sinners, especially myself - who, without knowing it, may very well trespass against people I cross paths with on a daily basis. I really don’t want them to hold anything against me so I take the ‘love one another as I have loved you’ very literally - forgiving others so that I might be forgiven if/when I find myself in their shoes.

 

[YinYangMom]

Would you say, YYMom, that i should also not judge those who sin against me or those i love?

The Catholic church teaches we are to judge the sin, not the sinner, for only God/Jesus has the power to judge, as you noted to me earlier in this discussion.

The thing is we humans are incapable of judging others because we are not all-knowing, able to look into a person’s heart for intent, motive, remorse, etc.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

The Catholic church teaches we are to judge the sin, not the sinner, for only God/Jesus has the power to judge, as you noted to me earlier in this discussion.

The thing is we humans are incapable of judging others because we are not all-knowing, able to look into a person’s heart for intent, motive, remorse, etc.

What is the difference between judging the sin and judging the sinner? Will you give me an example of each?

 

[JaneFrances]

Jane:

If i cannot imitate God perfectly, does that mean that i should not try to imitate Him at all?

Not at all. However, one should not presume that she can imitate God in all that He is and all that He does. We are only called to imitate the Father as is appropriate for our place in creation.

For instance, I can never be a perfect Creator. I can not make something from nothing just by willing it. I can never be a perfect judge as I do not have all knowledge of man’s heart nor do I have perfect wisdom to apply judgement accordingly. On the other hand, I believe that as a human being, through the sanctifying and redemptive grace of Jesus Christ, I CAN choose to obey perfectly. It is a choice I make moment by moment.

In the case of forgiveness, I can only forgive as a human being. As I am not God, with all knowledge, I can not know the inner-workings of man’s heart and mind, so I am called to forgive as an act of charity and mercy.

I believe that by grace we are, in fact, capable of imitating God perfectly as human beings. When we fail, it is because of a choice on our part. When we fall short, we receive the grace of God in vain (2 Cor. 6:1). When Christ says to us, “Be perfect as the Father is perfect,” I believe Him and I believe in His power to make that possible. This, of course, pertains to the practically vs. positionally perfect thread which you began a while back.

You appear to believe that God forgives conditionally, often (though not always) requiring repentance.

This is incorrect. Instead, I believe God always forgives conditionally. He forgives conditioned upon who He is. Being God, He always knows the deepest recesses of man’s heart and mind. Being God, He is not a creature of time, therefore His grace, mercy, and forgiveness do not require the absolute chronological rubric of repentance which you prescribe. He can forgive in anticipation and perfect expectation of repentance. And He can withhold forgiveness based on His eternal knowledge. These are capabilities of God alone.

Yet you are telling me i should not try to imitate Him in the way He forgives. Rather than attempt to imitate Him, you advise me to never forgive conditionally.

No, I’m not saying not to try to imitate God. I am saying imitate Him as is appropriate for you as a human being and a sinner.

As I said above God forgives conditioned upon who He is–PERFECT. As we imitate Him, we forgive conditioned upon who we are–sinners. For as Christ tells us, “Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.” (Luke 6:37).

However, St. Paul tells meBe imitators of God, therefore, as dearly loved children and live a life of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.**(Ephesians 5:1-2)

I believe St. Paul and I believe, by grace, we can indeed imitate God and live a life of love if we so choose it. I believe with God anything is possible.

Yes, i agree i will never be able to imitate Him perfectly, but does that mean i should not try to imitate Him at all?

You misunderstand me and I disagree. I believe that if we so choose it, by grace, we can indeed imitate Him perfectly as is appropriate for human beings. I do not believe that I can be God, however, thus I recognize that He reserves certain abilities and judgements for Himself.

For example, if a person is unrepentant beyond a reasonable doubt, and says he will not repent of a mortal sin, it makes sense that i would not forgive Him when reason and Scripture tell me God will not forgive him either, unless he repents.

I do not withhold my forgiveness based on legalities. I forgive in freedom. I forgive because I am loved. I forgive because I love. I forgive because I believe, like the quotation your friend offers, “it is better to err on the side of grace.” Grace, of course, being a free gift.

Even the most hardened sinner can be transformed by the Love of the Almighty. The Spirit can move a heart even unto its last living beat. I think it is reasonable, then, to conclude Scripturally and lovingly that forgiveness is appropriate even when repentance is imperfect and/or possibly forthcoming.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

… Even the most hardened sinner can be transformed by the Love of the Almighty. The Spirit can move a heart even unto its last living beat. I think it is reasonable, then, to conclude Scripturally and lovingly that forgiveness is appropriate even when repentance is imperfect and/or possibly forthcoming.

Absolutely, Jane!

We agree on a great many things and disagree on others. I do appreciate the dialog, and hope that i will better be able to understand you as a result.

I do not think you are saying that God allows those into heaven who never repent and never will repent. That sinners would continue to sin in an unrepentant state in His presence is unthinkable. I’m assuming, then, that you are saying what St. Paul said when He cautioned those who believed they could be saved by faith apart from repentance:

Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness leads you toward repentance?
(Romans 2:4)
The sinner, realizing the degree to which God loves her, will be compelled to repent. This love is obvious when one considers that “God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us” (Romans 5:8).

I agree, too, that God’s decisions are not limited by the constraints of time. He lives in Eternity, which is not in the absence of time but in a reality beyond time, i believe. I like how C. S. Lewis put it when he wrote in Mere Christianity that to God all of time, from beginning to the end, is like a time line in an open book. It is as though for God time stands still. He can reach down at any moment and touch that book and enter time from Eternity and work powerfully in the life of one person. For God, our past, present and future are all His now. He has all the time in Eternity to work in each and every person’s life. Being a fan of science fiction, the thought of how God operates fascinates me beyond no end.

So, yes, since God knows the entirety of my life, i suppose He can equitably forgive me today for sins i have committed but of which i will stubbornly refuse to repent for yeart to come. Still, i do not see how He can forgive me today for sins of which i will rebelliously refuse to repent both in time and Eternity. The fact remains that God never forgives those who knew they did wrong and who forever refuse to repent. This is why it is so important the we convince others to repent. That forgiveness is inseparable from repentance is implied by Jesus’ commission to the Apostles:

He told them, “This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. You are witnesses of these things.”
(Luke 24:46-48)

This is in fact the message that the Apostles preached. This was indeed St. Peter’s message, for He said:

“Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”
(Acts 2:38)

and**“Repent**, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord… .”
(Acts 3:19)

and"God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might give repentance and forgiveness of sins to Israel."
(Acts 5:31)

and**“Repent** of this wickedness and pray to the Lord. Perhaps he will forgive you for having such a thought in your heart.”
(Acts 8:22)

There are many other statements by St. Peter, St. Paul and the other Apostles, and Jesus Himself that God only forgives those who repent. Whether He forgives them first knowing that they will later repent, or forgives them at the moment they repent, i do not think it matters. The truth is that repentance is a condition (or requirement) the sinner must meet to be forgiven by God. Far from being an act of revenge, i see the requiring of repentance as an act of compassion. Jesus says"Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest, and repent."
(Revelation 3:9)

Do you at least agree, Jane, that God eternally forgives and gives the gift of eternal life only to those who repent?

 

[YinYangMom]

What is the difference between judging the sin and judging the sinner? Will you give me an example of each?

For the complex example visit any thread in the Moral Theology Forum dealing with homosexuality and Catholic teaching.

Some examples:
A teen raised in the faith lies to his parents so that he can go to a party they already said he was not allowed to attend.
What the teen did was a sin.
The state of the teen’s soul as a result of that sin cannot be determined.

A person steals office supplies from work without intending to replace them.
What the person did was a sin.
The state of the person’s soul as a result of that sin cannot be determined.

A husband engages in a one-night stand.
What the husband did was a sin.
The state of the husband’s soul as a result of that sin cannot be determined.

We cannot say with absolute certainty that these people’s souls are damned to hell** unless and until** they seek repentance. It is possible those sins will result in more time in purgatory, but we don’t know that either.

Certainly we cannot say those people’s souls are damned to hell unless and until the teen confesses and repents to his parents, the office worker confesses and repents to his employer, and the husband confesses and repents to his wife because the souls can be absolved through the sacrament of reconciliation without the wronged parties ever knowing about the absolution.

Let’s take using the Lord’s name in vain…

Goodness, there are many God loving Christians who do this on occasion. Sometimes they apologize for it right then and there, other times they do not…even when admonished by those around them. Rather than apologize, they justify/excuse their wrong-doing.

Ignorance on behalf of the sinner cannot be claimed as he professes himself to be a God loving Christian, so obviously he knows the commandment.

We can judge rightly that the person committed a sin - he did take the Lord’s name in vain. That’s a fact.

We cannot judge the person as thus being damned to hell for committing the sin because we really don’t know his heart.

In the same breath he brushes off those who corrected him, the guy could very well have uttered a silent prayer to our Lord for forgiveness.

Those in the room wouldn’t know about the silent prayer but God would. Perhaps the next day the Spirit moves him to go to confession. How would you know that he went?

Would you continue to judge the person as damned for his offense because you have no evidence to show he sought forgiveness from the Lord? Or because he never apologized to you personally? Will you continue to look upon the man with pity, praying for his soul because as far as you can see he is still a sinner, when he’s already been absolved of those transgressions?

God forgives based on a person’s heart. We humans aren’t physically capable of knowing a person’s heart at any given moment. We can extrapolate what we think the state of a person’s heart is by looking at their actions, but that’s not the same as ‘knowing’, and to be honest, it just isn’t our place. Jesus is the only one who is called to judge a person’s soul, not man. Man is capable of judging actions, but not a person’s heart and/or soul.

 

[YinYangMom]

What a person’s sins reveal, I have learned, is not the state of their soul with regard to salvation, but that the person is apparently still struggling to do right by God. My holding grievances against the person does not help him/her experience the hope of Christ. If anything, it diminishes that hope for if I won’t forgive them or will only do so conditionally, they can begin to question whether or not God would ever forgive them and fear that the conditions He might set, if anything like the ones I did, could ever be met - so why even bother?

I do not want to be accountable for adding to the despair of God’s lost sheep when I could have offered hope. If a simple act of forgiveness on my part, especially when the person doesn’t deserve it nor expect it, can give that person hope in God’s love and mercy for him, then I will gladly give that gift.

Remember that Jesus says the man released of the greater debt will love the moneylender more. If by releasing the greater debt of someone who offends me (greater meaning they don’t seek my forgiveness, don’t want and/or deserve it) that person may be moved by the Spirit to turn to God in hope for love then yes, I’ll release the debt.

Note that I do not release the debt so that the offender loves me more. Since the guy never asked for my forgiveness, nor wanted it, I don’t expect to ever receive any acknowledgment on his part about the incident, but I trust in the Spirit to direct the person’s heart in love toward God. I forgive, not for myself, but for that other person, so that he can experience the hope of God’s forgiveness some day when he needs it most.

It would seem that our forgiveness here on earth serves a different purpose than God’s forgiveness. Our forgiveness does not have an impact on the salvation of a person’s soul, only God’s does. Ours can serve as a light of hope to a sinner, moving him to seek God’s forgiveness (the one which really matters). Perhaps that’s why Jesus moves us to forgive others, because He knows our act of forgiveness will lead more people toward Him so that He may forgive them.

By the way, please, honor your word. In post #584 you said you would answer my question if I answered yours. I did answer that question and several others since. You have yet to answer mine. Just pick one of the two, A or B:

** which action** do you believe Jesus would value more as a demonstration of your love for Him:

A. Forgiving someone who repents to you as **you are obliged **to do (according to the law or scripture)
or
B. forgiving the person without their repentance when **you are not obliged **to do so, nor are you prohibited from doing so (according to the law or scripture)?

 

[JaneFrances]

I do not think you are saying that God allows those into heaven who never repent and never will repent.

Precisely.

I agree, too, that God’s decisions are not limited by the constraints of time.

Great! That’s progress. Now, apply this point to your capability of imitating God, especially as it pertains to the forgiveness of others.

So, yes, since God knows the entirety of my life, i suppose He can equitably forgive me today for sins i have committed but of which i will stubbornly refuse to repent for yeart to come.

So, there is the first step. God alone can forgive conditionally based upon his Eternal knowledge. Without Eternal knowledge, then, how do you suppose we can forgive exactly as God forgives?

Still, i do not see how He can forgive me today for sins of which i will rebelliously refuse to repent both in time and Eternity.

This is not the arguement. No one here has once suggested that God will admit persons into Eternal Life without repentance. The arguement, as it stands, pertains to your chronology which requires those who tresspass against you to repent PRIOR to your forgiving them.

The fact remains that God never forgives those who knew they did wrong and who forever refuse to repent.

You needn’t create strawmen. This is a given.

This is why it is so important the we convince others to repent.

Hmmmm? I’m not entirely sure I disagree, but I suspect we may have differing opinions on what “convincing others to repent” entails.

Given your history in this thread, I assume you contend that “convincing others to repent” means your withholding forgiveness from them until they are moved to contrition.

In contrast, I would contend that “convincing others to repent” is a work of the Holy Spirit which moves me, by grace, to will forgiveness in spite of my human weaknesses and perceptions. “Convincing others”, to me, can mean forgiving others as a self-less act of charity and mercy which can be, within time and Eternity, an instrument of God moving them to respond in repentance and love.

That forgiveness is inseparable from repentance is implied by Jesus’ commission to the Apostles

Once again, we do not disagree on this point. Repetance and the forgiveness of sins is, indeed, central to the message of the Gospel. HOWEVER, the chronological rubric of withholding forgiveness UNTIL a sinner has demonstrated repentance is not an absolute requirement, as you seemingly believe it is.

There are many other statements by St. Peter, St. Paul and the other Apostles, and Jesus Himself that God only forgives those who repent.

Okay. Once again, there is no disagreement here. God always forgives conditionally based upon Who He is–Perfect. You are not God. You are a sinner, not perfect. So, how do you apply this to your life and interaction with other sinners?

Whether He forgives them first knowing that they will later repent, or forgives them at the moment they repent, i do not think it matters.

This is where we diverge, it seems. I DO think it matters. I DO think it matters very much that I can never truly know a person’s heart and mind. Therefore, I forgive as an act of grace in the hope that my generosity to those I may percieve as undeserving and unrepentant may move them in the Spirit to contrition, repentance, and transforming love.

The truth is that repentance is a condition (or requirement) the sinner must meet to be forgiven by God.

Right. But your initial question:

Q. What conditions must someone meet before i should forgive her?

pertains to your relationship with another sinners, not the relationship between God and that sinner.

We have already established that we should imitate God insomuch as we are able as human beings. We can never BE God. God reserves certain prerogatives and attributes for Himself alone. Therefore, since we can never have perfect knowledge of a person’s heart and mind, we can not judge as God judges in perfect justice and mercy. Thus, we can not forgive as God forgives. As a result, we forgive by grace–freely and lovingly.

Far from being an act of revenge, i see the requiring of repentance as an act of compassion.

Interesting. Applying Yin Yang Mom’s (yet to be answered) question, I see the most compassionate and generous demonstration of love to be answer B.

Do you at least agree, Jane, that God eternally forgives and gives the gift of eternal life only to those who repent?

Yes, as only He is able. I forgive, however, as only I am able. Thus, I forgive those who have sinned against me in spite of my imperfect state of knowledge, justice, mercy, and love.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

… By the way, please, honor your word. In post #584 you said you would answer my question if I answered yours. I did answer that question and several others since. You have yet to answer mine. Just pick one of the two, A or B:

which action do you believe Jesus would value more as a demonstration of your love for Him:

A. Forgiving someone who repents to you as **you are obliged **to do (according to the law or scripture)
or
B. forgiving the person without their repentance when **you are not obliged **to do so, nor are you prohibited from doing so (according to the law or scripture)?

I tried to answer the question once, and you did not accept my answer. Let me try again. The answer i would choose is A. My reasoning is this:

1. • Forgiveness is an act of love that God shows to those who meet the conditions to receive that kind of love.
   • There are at least two conditions God accepts in order for Him to forgive the ones who meet those conditions: repentance from their sins or ignorance of their sins.
   • There might be other conditions God accepts as well, such as love or faith, although it is not possible that a person can sincerely love God and have faith in God without repentance.
   • If love and faith are conditions people must meet to receive God’s forgiveness, repentance will be also.
   • God warns us that He will not forgive a person who refuses to repent.
   • God tells us that we should judge those who do not repent, although we should judge them fairly.
   • To forgive means to pardon a person for his sins and remove all consequences for those sins.
   • Pardoning a person for his sins and absolving him from any consequences for his sins is the opposite of judging a person.
   • God obligates (or wants) me to imitate Him as closely as i can in the way i love others, including the way i forgive.
   • I should always do what God obligates (or wants) me to do.
   • I should never do what God does not want me to do.
   • If a person refuses to repent, i should try to imitate God as closely as i can by obligating him to repent before i pardon him and absolve him from all consequences for his sins.
     An example might be a man who calls himself a priest but who molests young boys. I would not pardon such a man for his sins and absolve him from any consequences for those sins. I would plead with him to stop his behavior, and if the behavior continued i might take the matter up with a bishop, or call the police, or report him to child protective services. In this way i would judge the priest’s actions as fairly and as mercifully as the Holy Spirit enables me. However, out of love and obedience to God i would not pardon him for his sin, but hold him accountable for that sin.
   Now, if he were to repent, i might decide to pardon him for those sins. I would then not hold him accountable and not report the sin to a bishop nor call the police nor report him to child protective services. This is what it means to forgive - to pardon and assure that a person suffers no consequences for his sins. I do not think this is something that can rightfully be done for everyone who sins against us. Some other examples:
   • A boss will forgive an employee by not firing him, because any boss who fires an employee does not pardon him nor absolve him from the consequences of his actions.
   • A judge will forgive a criminal by suspending his sentence so that he does not go to prison, because any judge who gives a person a prison sentence does not pardon him nor absolve him from the consequences of his actions.
   • A mother will forgive the boy who shoots and murders her son by not calling the police to arrest the boy and not testifying against him, because causing a criminal to be arrested and convicted of a crime is not pardoning him nor absolving him from any consequences for his actions.
     Why should the parishioner, the boss, the judge and the mother not require the sinners to repent before they pardon them and have them suffer no consequences for their sins?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

… Interesting. Applying Yin Yang Mom’s (yet to be answered) question, I see the most compassionate and generous demonstration of love to be answer B. Yes, as only He is able. I forgive, however, as only I am able. Thus, I forgive those who have sinned against me in spite of my imperfect state of knowledge, justice, mercy, and love.

Are you saying, my dear Jane, that if you were the parishioner, the boss, the judge or the mother in the examples i gave YYMom that you would pardon the sinners and absolve them from any consequences whatsoever for their sins?

(You see, this is what i understand forgiveness to be, for this is what my dictionary tells me it means to forgive.)

 

[JaneFrances]

Are you saying, my dear Jane, that if you were the parishioner, the boss, the judge or the mother in the examples i gave YYMom that you would pardon the sinners and absolve them from any consequences whatsoever for their sins?

(You see, this is what i understand forgiveness to be, for this is what my dictionary tells me it means to forgive.)

I understand that you are clinging to Webster (or Heritage or Dictionary.com) for your definition of forgiveness.

However, just as God’s forgiveness does not absolve a sinner from all consequences of sin, neither would my pardon relieve a sinner from all consequences resulting from his or her sin.

For instance, I can easily forgive my child for any number of disobediences prior to him repenting. I do this every day. The scenario often goes something like this:
My 6 year old, disobediently climbs up on my counter top to grasp a forbidden treat, thinking that I am in the shower and can not possibly catch him in this sin. On the contrary, because I was picking up all the laundry prior to my shower, I return to the kitchen to gather the used hand towels only find my child in the act of disobedience. Surprised to see me, he leaps from the counter top and breaks the jar of cookies he was sneaking. He is indignant. He is embarrassed. He is caught in his sin. I look lovingly at this child. I say, “You know that what you were doing is wrong. You were being disobedient and sneaky. And now you have broken the cookie jar and made a mess.” He is silent. I continue, “Son, I love you. You have made a very bad choice, but I forgive you. Now, I’m going to take a shower. Pick up the broken pieces and cookies.” He’s still silent. I walk away.

Now, I stop the story here. My forgiveness is complete, yet there are still consequences for my son’s sin. I have forgiven him. I do not take back my forgiveness even if he never utters a word of repentance to me. I do not withhold my forgiveness until he cleans up the consequences. It, then, becomes his choice to respond to my freely given act of forgiveness with love.

Now, I have several sons. . .I know that each will respond in different ways. One may follow me to shower, in tears, apologizing. One may stay behind in the kitchen picking up the pieces, never to utter another word to me about it. One may remain amidst the pieces until I return from my shower only to remind him again that I expect this mess be picked up. Another may immediately apologize, being truly sorry, for this transgression, but forget to clean up the mess or do so completely inadequately. The possibilities are endless. . .you’d have to know my sons.

In any case, I can honestly say that I forgive my children, as a fellow sinner and human being, in love. I forgive my children with the hope that my self-less act of charity and mercy will prompt their hearts to contrition and eventual repentance, even if I never am made aware of this conversion. I release them, not from the natural consequences of their sin, but I release them to the supernatural and transforming Love of their Savior Jesus Christ

Now, my son’s sin, in the scope of gravity, does not really compare with the sins of murder or sexual abuse. However, just as in the parable of the moneylender, I am comforted in the hope that any forgiveness I extend can be used by God as an instrument of transforming love, corresponding to the measure of the sin forgiven.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Yes, that makes sense, Jane. The seriousness of the consequences of the sin might determine whether you discipline your child or not. I think also that young children, as well as those who are developmentally disabled, and the criminally insane might also qualify as meeting the condition of not being culpable for their sins.

Now, lets say the sin is more serious, like one of your youngsters running in front of an oncoming car. If your loving rebuke does not convince him, you simply cannot allow him to continue the behavior or he might end up crippled or dead! A gentle spanking, or sending him to his room, or not taking him out for ice cream with his siblings might convince him to keep from the sin that might kill him. In this case, judgement, not forgiveness, is the best course of action, i think, for St. Paul tells us that “love … always protects” (1 Corinthians, chapter 13).

As your sons grow older, like mine, they might become more assertive in their defiance. You will find it harder and harder to shrug off their sins and tell them you love them. Nor do i think this is what God would want you to do, for we read

In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. And you have forgotten that word of encouragement that addresses you as sons:

“My son, do not make light of the Lord’s discipline, and do not lose heart when he rebukes you, because the Lord disciplines those he loves, and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son.”

(Hebrews 12:4-6)
and

Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest, and repent.

(Revelation 3:19)
The most loving thing you might do for a defiant teenage son is to not pardon him but to let him suffer the consequences for his sins. You might ground him if he disobeys you by staying out late with the wrong crowd, take away his privileges if he fails to keep up with his chores, or make him do work to pay for dent he put in the door of the neighbor’s car. All of these are acts of love and discipline and judgement, but not acts of forgiveness.

Tell me, dear Jane, what do you think these words of the Lord who lovingly disciplines you and me mean?

"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

“Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite! First take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.”

(Matthew 7:1-5)

 

[JaneFrances]

Yes, that makes sense, Jane. The seriousness of the consequences of the sin might determine whether you discipline your child or not.

You have misunderstood my point entirely.

I am not talking about disciplinary actions. Instead, the consequences of my son’s sin are naturally flowing from the nature of his actions. Any discipline I choose to impart is tangental, but separate from my forgiveness and the natural consequences of his actions. For instance, I may discipline my son by giving him a time-out, a spanking, or restrict him from a favorite treat, but still forgive him. He may still suffer the natural consequences of his sin (for instance, he may step on a piece of unswept broken glass from the cookie jar and , thus, suffer a natural consequence of his sin), yet still experience the loving effects of my forgiveness.

I think also that young children, as well as those who are developmentally disabled, and the criminally insane might also qualify as meeting the condition of not being culpable for their sins.

Culpability is a fine line, to be sure. But, supposing this child was fully culpable. . .say, it was my 10 year old, fully aware, fully knowledgable of the consequences, and fully willing to commit the sinful act. . .my free gift of forgiveness still can be effective towards moving his heart to repentance.

Now, lets say the sin is more serious, like one of your youngsters running in front of an oncoming car… . . In this case, judgement, not forgiveness, is the best course of action, i think. . .

OR, in this case, I can make an objective judgement based on the seriousness of an offense, impart discipline for a sinful act and STILL extend forgiveness prior to a full repentance out of love.

As your sons grow older, like mine, they might become more assertive in their defiance. You will find it harder and harder to shrug off their sins and tell them you love them.

Let me make it very clear that I, in no way, “shrug off” my sons’ sins regardless of their age or the gravity of the offense. I love them in spite of their sin. I tell them this as they please me and even as they disappoint and offend me.

I do not forgive them because it’s “no biggie.” I forgive them because love is bigger than my hurt, disappointment, disgust, and comprehension. In Love, I forgive them, trusting in God’s power to move their hearts and confident of His supreme justice and mercy.

The most loving thing you might do for a defiant teenage son is to not pardon him but to let him suffer the consequences for his sins.

Once again, I can extend forgiveness and still not interfere with the ensuing natural consequences of any given sin.

You might ground him if he disobeys you by staying out late with the wrong crowd, take away his privileges if he fails to keep up with his chores, or make him do work to pay for dent he put in the door of the neighbor’s car. All of these are acts of love and discipline and judgement, but not acts of forgiveness.

I agree. Grounding a child, removing privileges, and requiring recompense can all be loving examples of discipline and judgement. However, such consequences do not require withholding forgiveness.

On the other hand, if we examine all the particulars, grounding a child, removing privileges, and requiring recompense can also be selfish demands placed upon an offending child to satisy our own needs and desires. This is especially why it is important for a parent to constantly pray for discernment and wisdom when disciplining children for, as the Scriptures warn, we should not provoke our children, but encourage them with discipline and instruction in the Lord. Discipline and instruction do not preclude forgiveness.

Tell me, dear Jane, what do you think these words of the Lord who lovingly disciplines you and me mean?

"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

You may read over the entirity of this thread to discern the meaning of these words as they have been discussed at length. In essence, this passage warns us, as sinners, to avoid judgements of condemnation.

“Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite! First take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.”

(Matthew 7:1-5)

This passage clearly warns us about hypocracy and judgement especially as we attempt to qualify the actions and intentions of other sinners.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Jane:

I’m not certain you and i mean the same things when we use the words forgive and judge. How would you define these words as they apply to human beings?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Perhaps we might come to an agreement on the meaning of the words by referring to a dictionary?

*WordNet *

judge

---

verb

1. determine the result of (a competition)
2. form a critical opinion of; “I cannot judge some works of modern art”; “How do you evaluate this grant proposal?” “We shouldn’t pass judgment on other people” [syn: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/evaluate”]evaluate]
3. judge tentatively or form an estimate of (quantities or time); “I estimate this chicken to weigh three pounds” [syn: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/estimate”]estimate]
4. pronounce judgment on; “They labeled him unfit to work here” [syn: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/pronounce”]pronounce]
5. put on trial or hear a case and sit as the judge at the trial of; “The football star was tried for the murder of his wife”; “The judge tried both father and son in separate trials”

WordNet® 3.0, © 2006 by Princeton University.

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)

for·give http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/premium.gif http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngcache.lexico.com/g/d/speaker.gif/fərˈgɪv/Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciationfer-giv]Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
*verb, ***-gave, -giv·en, -giv·ing. ***–verb (used with object) *
1.to grant pardon for or remission of (an offense, debt, etc.); absolve.
2.to give up all claim on account of; remit (a debt, obligation, etc.).
3.to grant pardon to (a person).
4.to cease to feel resentment against: *to forgive one’s enemies. *
5.to cancel an indebtedness or liability of: *to forgive the interest owed on a loan. *
*–verb (used without object) *
6.to pardon an offense or an offender.

—Synonyms 1.** See excuse. 3**.** absolve, acquit.
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)

Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.

 

[YinYangMom]

I tried to answer the question once, and you did not accept my answer. Let me try again. The answer i would choose is A.

Thank you. You addressed the question previously without actually choosing A or B. This time, you at least chose an option. I appreciate it.

It seems you honestly believe that if we went the extra mile to forgive someone outside the boundaries you’ve determined we would be doing something wrong, something displeasing to our Lord.

We have shown scripture passages to indicate otherwise, yet you do not show passages which support your position - that God would not be pleased with those choosing option B.

Thus, we are at an impasse. There is not much else I could add to this conversation except to encourage you to truly search your intent in imitating Christ. You haven’t been able to distinguish man’s forgiveness from God’s. They are not the same, they do not carry the same weight, they serve separate purposes. Perhaps if you ponder upon that distinction you may better understand what we’ve been trying to share with you.

You started this thread to ask if you should forgive ‘her’.
The answer, whether you agree with or understand it or not, is yes. Forgive her even if she never repents to you. You really do not know if she has already repented to Jesus in her heart and/or through the sacrament of reconciliation.

 

[YinYangMom]

Perhaps we might come to an agreement on the meaning of the words by referring to a dictionary?

The dictionary is a secular reference book.
If your true intent is to imitate the love of Christ, follow His commandment to love one another as He has loved you, then stick with scripture and the teachings of the Church. You will see in many passages that Jesus does not limit Himself nor those who believe in Him to the rules/guidelines of man alone. He continually calls us to look to the Father for Truth. You were doing better when you were arguing your point through scripture.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Thank you for your time, YYMom. I do appreciate it. If you change your mind and would like to add something to the conversation, please feel free to do so.

Embrace the grace,
Soc

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Q. 24. Is there ever a time when it is right and good to judge someone?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Q. 25. If i say i forgive someone and then judge them for their sins, have i sincerely forgiven them?