Forgiveness FAQ

[JaneFrances]

Q. 24. Is there ever a time when it is right and good to judge someone?

We judge others every single day. This is a function of humanity. In Scripture, whenever judgement is mentioned there are several senses or scenarios which may be considered. These would include

1. the litigious judgement of a secular official (Deuteronomy 25:1)
2. the liturgical judgement of a priest (in the Old and New Covenants: 1 Sam 8:1, Exodus 18:26, Matthew 18:17-18)
3. the righteous and just judgement of God, through his appointed judge, the Lord Jesus Christ and (Deuteronomy 32:26, Romans 2:16)
4. the judgement within the communion of saints (1 Corinthians 6:2)
5. the judgement between men (Romans 2:1)

When referring to the judgement between men, it is always important to consider what is being judged. One may certainly judge a person’s actions as objectively good or evil. In this way, we may react by avoiding a person, praising him, rewarding him, punishing him, etc. These sorts of judgement may, indeed, be right and good. None of these judgments preclude forgiveness, however.

As we are not God, we can not presume we know the heart and mind of another human being. We may not make judgments of condemnation based upon our imperfect knowledge and perception of another person’s sin.

In this case, we refer rightly to St. Paul’s good instruction:

1 Corinthians 4:5
Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men’s hearts.

 

[JaneFrances]

Q. 25. If i say i forgive someone and then judge them for their sins, have i sincerely forgiven them?

Yes, I believe you can sincerely extend forgiveness, by grace, as an act of love regardless of your judgement of a person’s actions. By forgiving, as a fellow sinner and human being, you are not placing an eternal judgement on their soul or claiming to know their hearts and motives. You are merely releasing them from indebtedness to you and into the love, justice, and mercy of the Almighty.

By holding an unrepentant and hardened sinner bound to you, you are like a man with a tether. On the end of that tether is a person running in the opposite direction or, in the worst cases, running at you to continue to abuse and insult you with buffets and blows. They, being unrepentant and hardened, are not interested in who is holding the the line. They run without care and without concern, tugging at the rope while you become calloused from holding it tightly in place. But, when you can find it in your heart to release your grasp, they will continue to run, to be sure. They may continue to run at you, and you are free to escape their grasp. They may choose to run straight into a tree or off a cliff. OR, they may choose to run into the light and there they will meet their Savior. Then, they may ask Him, “Why was I running for so long and going nowhere?” He will show her your face. And He will respond, “He set you free and you found me.” And looking down at your own hands the calluses have softened and your heart is lighter. Love does amazing things.

Such forgiveness is not required of you by law. It is an act of love. It is a free act of grace.

The selfless act of willing forgiveness for someone who neither deserves it nor desires it can, then, be an instrument of God’s grace to move the heart of a previously unrepentant sinner.

The bottom line here, Socrates4Jesus, is that it seems as if you came to this thread with a notion of forgiveness and a chronological rubric that you will not abandon. Your initial question:

Q. What conditions must someone meet before i should forgive her?

is proof enough of this agenda.

It does not appear as if you are looking for other possibilities. You are looking for confirmation. You did not ask “Are there conditions. . .?” You posed, “What are the conditions?” You did not ask “When must I forgive?” You presumed that forgiveness must always follow your preconceived timeline.

Many posters, including myself, have worked with great toil and interest to help you see the benefits of forgiveness. We have offered you Scripture. We have reasoned. We have prayed. We have been patient.

Yet, you cling to your dictionary, your notion, and your forgiveness waiting for mountains to move. And, by grace through faith, I believe they can. Take a chance on grace. . .Forgive.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Jane:

I’ve been thinking about what you said about it being impossible to forgive exactly as God forgives. What you said makes sense for several reasons:

1. 
   *]I cannot forgive with the same perfect knowledge that God forgives. As David said, before a word leaves his mouth, God knows everything he will say, and as God said to Samuel, man looks at the outward appearance, but God looks at the heart.
   *]I cannot forgive with the same powerful effects that God forgives. My forgiveness only has the power to affect a person’s life for time, God’s forgiveness affects the same person for eternity.
   *]While St. Paul tells us to imitate God, he does not explicitly say to emulate Him in all things.
   So, i agree i should not assume that i can perfectly forgive, nor can i presume that my forgiveness will in any way have the same effect as God’s forgiveness. However, i’m still not convinced that i should not forgive with the same particular method God employs. God demands from everyone He forgives who is aware of that their actions are wrong that they do not continue to live a life devoted to sin. At some point they must make a sincere and permanent u-turn in the road of their lives and become devoted to Him. I agree that He might forgive first and the forgiven might repent afterward, but He forgives knowing they will repent and keeping that as a prerequisite to His forgiveness.
   
   “But that is how God forgives,” you appear to be saying, “and you yourself said you are not certain you should try to imitate Him in everything.” If i had no doubts about this i could certainly agree with you. However, i’m reminded of this:
   
   Jesus gave them this answer: “I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.”
   (John 5:19)
   If i take Jesus at His word, He is telling me that “whatever the Father does the Son also does” and whatever includes the way He forgives. What this means is that Jesus, as 100% man (and as 100% God) forgave using the same particular method God the Father used. Then i recall something else Jesus said:
   
   “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”
   (John 13:34-35)
   I’m reminded that Jesus said i’m supposed to love others the way He loves me, and that includes the way He forgives me, for (as several of us agreed early in this discussion) forgiveness is a specific kind or act of love.
   
   So i’m torn. I know it is impossible for me to forgive as perfectly as God forgives, for it is impossible for me to love as perfectly as He loves. Yet my desire is to love as perfectly as Jesus loves me, and to forgive as He himself has forgiven me; and i believe Him when He says He does everything the way the Father does. Then i remember St. Paul’s words:Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you.
   (Colossians 3:13)
   Like Mother Teressa said, “Once you see truth, you can’t unsee it.” I don’t see how i can unsee this one:
   
   A. The method i should use to forgive
   B. The method Jesus used to forgive
   C. The method the Father uses to forgive.
   
   The undeniable logical takes this simple form:
   
   If A = Band B = Cthen A = C

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Jane:

I cannot help but wondering about what the good doctor said, however. For she pointed out that the word as can also mean because. So the words

… Forgive as the Lord forgave you.
(Colossians 3:13)

might mean

… Forgive [because] the Lord forgave you.

This also raises the possibility that Christ’s words “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.”
(John 13:34)

might mean

“[Because] I have loved you, so you must love one another.”
So both passages are ambiguous, as they can be taken to mean two different things: Either i am to forgive and love the way that Jesus does, or i am to forgive and love because Jesus does.

That leaves me wondering, then, what St. Paul meant by the words

Be imitators of God, therefore, as dearly loved children and live a life of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.
(Ephesians 5:1-2)

If i am not to imitate Jesus in the way He loves (including in the way He forgives) then how am i to imitate Him? I’m in a state of confusion, but i have been in such a state in the past with God results. I trust that “God works all things for the good of those who love Him”.

 

[YinYangMom]

So, i agree i should not assume that i can perfectly forgive, nor can i presume that my forgiveness will in any way have the same effect as God’s forgiveness. However, i’m still not convinced that i should not forgive with the same particular method God employs.

Socrates,
I am most pleased to see you finally recognizing there is a distinction between our forgiveness and God’s. That’s a critical first step.

The thing about the particular method, however, may be something which will be difficult for you to reconcile but I think you’ll come to understand in time.

Not everything God does is known to man.
On Pentecost the Holy Spirit revealed to the apostles all they would need to know to preserve, protect and share the Truth to all the ends of the earth until Jesus comes again in glory.
Much of what was revealed was passed down via oral Tradition through the Church.
Some of those Truths were preserved by scripture.

Scripture reveals some of the ways God forgives.

You’ve found two definite conditions of God’s forgiveness.
That’s a good start.

But there are obviously other conditions under which He forgives.
We showed examples of this in the parable of the moneylender and the stories of the woman crying and the paralyzed man. The conditions, however, were rather vague, weren’t they?
We know the woman was forgiven because of her love and faith.
We know the paralyzed man was forgiven for the faith of his friends (we aren’t even clear if he himself had faith).
And the debtors who were released from their debts - we have no clue why the moneylender released the debts. He just did.

So even though you may be correct to desire forgiving with the same particular methods God employs can you see how that just isn’t going to be possible? Not only because you aren’t God, but because there is no way to know all the particular methods God employs.

This is why your friend’s quote about ‘erring on the side of grace’ is so important. Because we cannot know all the ways God forgives or why, it is better for us to err on the side of grace, forgiving unconditionally. Of course, we need God’s grace in order to do that, but we only need ask it of Him with an open heart and we know it will be done. It is possible with His grace.

 

[JaneFrances]

So, i agree i should not assume that i can perfectly forgive, nor can i presume that my forgiveness will in any way have the same effect as God’s forgiveness.

I think you judge quite rightly, Socrates4Jesus. God forgives as only He can. We can not forgive as God forgives.

But, then, you back track. . .

However, i’m still not convinced that i should not forgive with the same particular method God employs.

This an interesting idea and one that would certainly provide you a loophole. But I believe it can easily be proven incorrect.

One can not distinguish God from who He is and what He does. He is a unity in the fullest sense of the word. He is Love and he loves. His methods are never separate from who He is.

Putting aside forgiveness, for the moment, think about the others things God does and how he does them. . .

He is the Eternal Creator. He creates something out of nothing by just willing it to exist. As human beings, we have been commanded to have a share in his creative purpose. BUT, to presume that we can create imitate His “particular method” to create would be prideful and dangerous.

He is the Righteous Judge. As human beings, we have been given a mind to make judgments which can be both right and holy. YET, it is impossible to employ the “particular method” of God’s judgment and we have an array of Scripture warning us about trying to do so.

He is the Savior of the World. As human beings, we have been given a share in His Cross and an opportunity to participate in his saving work. YET, Christ’s work on the Cross alone is sufficient to redeem all of mankind. We can never employ this “particular method” of Jesus Christ for the salvation of souls.

So, now apply this to forgiveness. God forgives as only He can, because of who he is. We are called to forgive as God forgives and as we are forgiven, YET we can never employ God’s “particular method” of forgiveness. We are sinners who forgive other sinners. He is perfect.

What this means is that Jesus, as 100% man (and as 100% God) forgave using the same particular method God the Father used.

You are delving into some serious theology here. Assuming that your assessment is correct and that “Jesus. . .forgave using the same particular method God the Father used,” you still can not possibly employ this method yourself. Christ forgave, knowing man’s heart. He forgave knowing every sin in every man and woman’s life even as they touched his garment. He forgave and forgives because of His power to defeat sin on the Cross. You do not have these abilities. You can not employ these methods.

I’m reminded that Jesus said i’m supposed to love others the way He loves me, and that includes the way He forgives me, for (as several of us agreed early in this discussion) forgiveness is a specific kind or act of love.

I offer you, in turn, a quotation from Mother Theresa:

“If we really want to love
we must learn how to forgive”

We love by grace. . .freely, totally, faithfully and fruitfully. Thus, we learn to forgive by grace.

 

[clmowry]

I must have missed something. Where does it say. If your brother does not repent do not forgive him?

Got a better verse?

Chuck

“So watch yourselves. If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him.”

(Luke 17:3)

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

I must have missed something. Where does it say. If your brother does not repent do not forgive him?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Socrates4Jesus forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif

“So watch yourselves. If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him.”(Luke 17:3)

Got a better verse?

Chuck

Chuck:

Sure! How about this one?

"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye. (Matthew 7:1-5)
Tell me, Chuck, what do these words of your Lord and mine mean to you?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Socrates,
I am most pleased to see you finally recognizing there is a distinction between our forgiveness and God’s. That’s a critical first step. …

Now you are glad, Ying, and prepared to discuss the matter with me. Yesterday, you were sad, Yang, and you were prepared to leave the discussion for good.

Please tell me, honestly, what changed your mind?

http://speech-language-pathology-audiology.advanceweb.com/common/Forum/images/avatar/YinYang.gif

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

… I offer you, in turn, a quotation from Mother Theresa:

“If we really want to love
we must learn how to forgive”

We love by grace. . .freely, totally, faithfully and fruitfully. Thus, we learn to forgive by grace.

Would you say it is a far, far better thing to forgive by grace than to require repentance, dear Jane?

http://theloveclub.net/images/halo.gif

 

[YinYangMom]

Now you are glad, Ying, and prepared to discuss the matter with me. Yesterday, you were sad, Yang, and you were prepared to leave the discussion for good.

Please tell me, honestly, what changed your mind?

http://speech-language-pathology-audiology.advanceweb.com/common/Forum/images/avatar/YinYang.gif

Love the icon

Yesterday afternoon you chose Option A over B and explained your reasoning for doing so by recapping pretty much the same arguments you had raised earlier - indicating your mind was still as set on your original position even after 600+ posts.
That made me sad.

Late last night you wrote:

I’ve been thinking about what you said about it being impossible to forgive exactly as God forgives. What you said makes sense for several reasons:

1. 
   *]I cannot forgive with the same perfect knowledge that God forgives. As David said, before a word leaves his mouth, God knows everything he will say, and as God said to Samuel, man looks at the outward appearance, but God looks at the heart.
   *]I cannot forgive with the same powerful effects that God forgives. My forgiveness only has the power to affect a person’s life for time, God’s forgiveness affects the same person for eternity.
   *]While St. Paul tells us to imitate God, he does not explicitly say to emulate Him in all things.
   So, i agree i should not assume that i can perfectly forgive, nor can i presume that my forgiveness will in any way have the same effect as God’s forgiveness.

1. 
   This was a dramatic shift in your original position even though it’s ever so slight, and with that shift was hope that you may one day be able to forgive others unconditionally, always a good thing when done out of love for God.
   That made me happy.

 

[JaneFrances]

Would you say it is a far, far better thing to forgive by grace than to require repentance, dear Jane?

http://theloveclub.net/images/halo.gif

I’d like to play poker with you, Socrates4Jesus.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Love the icon

Yesterday afternoon you chose Option A over B and explained your reasoning for doing so by recapping pretty much the same arguments you had raised earlier - indicating your mind was still as set on your original position even after 600+ posts.
That made me sad.

Late last night you wrote:

This was a dramatic shift in your original position even though it’s ever so slight, and with that shift was hope that you may one day be able to forgive others unconditionally, always a good thing when done out of love for God.
That made me happy.

To add icons:

1. 
   *]Point your Web browser to images.google.com/
   *]Click the Advanced Image Search link to the right
   *]Select Small in the Return Images that Are list
   *]Enter the type of image for which you are searching in the Related to All the Words box
   *]Click on the image you want to add
   *]Click See Image Alone
   *]Right-click the image and click Properties
   *]In the Properties dialog box, click and drag to highlight the entire IP address (URL)
   *]Press and hold down the Ctrl key on your keyboard and press the C key on your keyboard
   *]Return to the Catholic.com forum and post a reply
   *]Click the add image button (the one with the yellow sky and the mountains)
   *]Right-click inside the Explorer User Prompt dialog box and click Paste and OK
   *]Click the Save Changes button to post the reply with the image you added
   

   So, if i had continued in my error, and stubbornly refused to be confused by the facts, you would have stuck to your original decision to stay clear of this discussion? (I'm not accusing you of anything wrong if that was indeed your decision, for i might do the same in your shoes.)

 

[Philthy]

Absolutely, Jane!

That forgiveness is inseparable from repentance is implied by Jesus’ commission to the Apostles:

He told them, “This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. You are witnesses of these things.”

(Luke 24:46-48)
This is in fact the message that the Apostles preached. This was indeed St. Peter’s message, for He said:

“Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”

(Acts 2:38)

and**“Repent**, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord… .”

(Acts 3:19)

and"God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might give repentance and forgiveness of sins to Israel."

(Acts 5:31)

and**“Repent** of this wickedness and pray to the Lord. Perhaps he will forgive you for having such a thought in your heart.”

(Acts 8:22)

There are many other statements by St. Peter, St. Paul and the other Apostles, and Jesus Himself that God only forgives those who repent… … i see the requiring of repentance as an act of compassion. Jesus says"Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest, and repent."

(Revelation 3:9)

Do you at least agree, Jane, that God eternally forgives and gives the gift of eternal life only to those who repent?

Soc -

Nowhere in any of this does one human ever say to another: I withhold MY forgiveness until you DEMONSTRATE to ME that you have repented. Paul never says it, Peter nevers says it either. You are the only one saying it. Yet Scripture clearly says “Do not judge”, vengence is mine, love your enemy, bless those who persecute you, etc etc.
How do you love your “enemy”, Soc? Do you wait until they are no longer your enemy (have repented?)?
And as a practical matter, why do you feel that withholding YOUR forgiveness while still urging someone to repent is contradictory?

 

[clmowry]

Right there with ya.

Chuck

Yesterday afternoon you chose Option A over B and explained your reasoning for doing so by recapping pretty much the same arguments you had raised earlier - indicating your mind was still as set on your original position even after 600+ posts.
That made me sad.

Late last night you wrote:

This was a dramatic shift in your original position even though it’s ever so slight, and with that shift was hope that you may one day be able to forgive others unconditionally, always a good thing when done out of love for God.
That made me happy.

 

[Philthy]

To add icons:

1. 
   *]Point your Web browser to images.google.com/
   *]Click the Advanced Image Search link to the right
   *]Select Small in the Return Images that Are list
   *]Enter the type of image for which you are searching in the Related to All the Words box
   *]Click on the image you want to add
   *]Click See Image Alone
   *]Right-click the image and click Properties
   *]In the Properties dialog box, click and drag to highlight the entire IP address (URL)
   *]Press and hold down the Ctrl key on your keyboard and press the C key on your keyboard
   *]Return to the Catholic.com forum and post a reply
   *]Click the add image button (the one with the yellow sky and the mountains)
   *]Right-click inside the Explorer User Prompt dialog box and click Paste and OK
   *]Click the Save Changes button to post the reply with the image you added
   

   So, if i had continued in my error, and stubbornly refused to be confused by the facts, you would have stuck to your original decision to stay clear of this discussion? (I'm not accusing you of anything wrong if that was indeed your decision, for i might do the same in your shoes.)

1. 
   Here, let me save us all a lot of posting:
   
   She would have forgiven your obstinance AND stayed clear of the discussion.
   
   I’d crush you in Poker!
   
   Phil

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

I’d like to play poker with you, Socrates4Jesus.

The truth is, Jane, i was not using my poker face. From your vantage point you have made progress, and i have to admit that you have. For when i started this conversation i was intensely curious why so many Protestants believed that they should forgive everyone arbitrarily. I thought i should explore the idea by asking as many as i could why they believed this for it did not appear to me to be the way God in Christ forgives. I’ve asked the question at a Protestant forum and received some of the same responses i have received in this discussion. I was not satisfied, so i came here. I thought that perhaps some here might know something i do not.

I think you, sweet Jane, have done more than all the rest to show me the possibility that the way you forgive is the way God wants me to forgive, and i strongly desire to please Him. That is where you have made progress, and i say this without a poker face and in all sincerity. You have done what no others have been able to do up to this point in the conversation: You have shown me the possibility that i am wrong.

Still, i’m sure you agree, a possibility is not the same as an actuality. I have no doubt you are sincere, but i know from experience that i myself have often been sincere, and yet sincerely wrong. As a wise man to whom i listen from time to time tells me, “The truth is still the truth even if nobody believes it. And a lie is still a lie even if everyone believes it.” What i’m looking for is certainty (or to be as sure as i can that what you say is the truth) before i decide to make a change in the way i love by way of forgiveness.

If you are willing to stick with me, i’d like to ask you to examine ideas i have about what it means to forgive and what it means to judge. These ideas appear to contradict what you believe to be the truth about how i should forgive. I hope you have the patience to look at my objections and point out where i might be in error.

My mother might have given birth to a sly old dog, but she did not bring into the world a stupid one. Like i said in a different discussion, i am not a partisan, i am a philosopher (or seeker of truth). I hope you will be willing to continue the conversation.

 

[clmowry]

Can’t speak for her, but I had decided to simply pray to God for your enlightenment.

Obviously my words weren’t accomplishing anything, so I figured I’d just stay quiet for a bit.

Doesn’t mean I’d given up. Just gotten quiet.

Chuck

So, if i had continued in my error, and stubbornly refused to be confused by the facts, you would have stuck to your original decision to stay clear of this discussion? (I’m not accusing you of anything wrong if that was indeed your decision, for i might do the same in your shoes.)

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Can’t speak for her, but I had decided to simply pray to God for your enlightenment.

Obviously my words weren’t accomplishing anything, so I figured I’d just stay quiet for a bit.

Doesn’t mean I’d given up. Just gotten quiet.

Chuck

I appreciate your prayers, Chuck! (and your replies, too).

 

[JaneFrances]

The truth is, Jane, i was not using my poker face.

. . .I wasn’t under the impression you were intentionally. I was merely commenting on the rash of cheeky posts you made yesterday, especially the one in response to the post I made which you opted out of addressing specifically beyond making a curious literary allusion.

I think you, sweet Jane, have done more than all the rest to show me the possibility that the way you forgive is the way God wants me to forgive, and i strongly desire to please Him. That is where you have made progress, and i say this without a poker face and in all sincerity.