Forgiveness FAQ

[Socrates4Jesus]

Soc: It is clear something in all our relationships with each other must change. I can either turn my back on your sister and father and take up arms with you, to my own damnation. Or i can take join your enemy sibling and her father and sacrifice Justice, Pardon and Absolution. Or i can convince you all to join my side, which is the side of my Father, i think.

Absol: (In disbelief.) How do you intend to do that?

Par: (Sarcastically.) Yes, tell us how you will perform this impossible miracle.

Soc: Impossible it might be, and possibly a miracle, but with God all good things are possible. My plan is to get Enemy to join us.

Absol: Sister, he can’t be serious.

Par: Socrates, all your contemplation has made you stark raving mad!

Soc: On the contrary, dear Acquittal, i’ve never been more sane about forgiveness than i am at this moment. Think of it: If Enemy were to repent, what would he become?

Par: Not your enemy, of course.

Soc: And neither yours. For he would become what he is not, which is our friend. There would be no sin in your loving him then, for to pardon those who repent is virtuous. Neither would there be any sin in your loving the Enemy turned Friend, Absolution. For cancelling the debts of one who proves his repentance is what pleases the God and Father of you, too.

Absol: You mentioned father and mother. What of them?

Soc: If Enemy were to repent, they would be united as well, for Mercy would be served by ceasing to resent the forgiven one, and Justice would be served by equitably pardoning and absolving him from his debt owed to me and God, the Father of us all.

Absol and Par: (Pause silently for some time, staring at Socrates with frowns.)

Soc: Well? What do you think?

Good: Socrates! If you don’t come now i shall forever miss you, but for never blame you! (Laughing.)

Par: (With a smile.) I say go to her, and your enemy.

Absol: (Also smiling.) And may your God be with you.

Soc: And also with you. (Smiles as he turns and begins to walk toward Goodwill and Enemy with his arms open wide.)

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

What if BOTH things are true?

Does the short play about the Forgivenesses answer your question Guano?

 

[DrPiano]

I like it

I guess I should have held my tongue until the end

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

I like it

I guess I should have held my tongue until the end

No, you were right to caution me, for the story certainly might have taken a turn for the worse written by someone else. Your rebuke was respectful and kind and necessary.

When i began the act i had no idea how it would end or what the characters would say. All i had was this idea that the Forgiveness should be personified and that Acceptance was unconditional, Acquittal and Absolution were conditional, and so they were in conflict.

Funny that i sometimes enjoy watching some plays, but i’ve never written anything like one before, except once as a child. It causes me to wonder whether Socrates was right when he told Ion that the true poets were those who did not speak their own words but were possessed by the gods and goddesses. I would think this a frightening thought were it not for St. Peter’s words:Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.(2 Peter 1:20-21)Is it presumptuous to suggest i might have been carried along by the Holy Spirit? That my words might have been my own but the ideas behind them were not? I don’t know. My guess is that God will speak through anyone who is willing to allow Him to use her tongue or fingers. Jeremiah’s words are not limited to a measly few, i think:

Therefore this is what the LORD says: “If you repent, I will restore you that you may serve me; if you utter worthy, not worthless, words, you will be my spokesman. …”(Jeremiah 15:19)I am no playwright. I’m an IT technician by trade. I do not see how i’m capable of writing such a thing on my own. These experiences are rare for me. However, they are the norm for God, i believe. For using someone weak like me is what pleases him, i think, for He tells me:

Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, so that no one may boast before him.(1 Corinthians 1:26-29)Have you ever experienced moments like that Doc? Have you ever seen God work in you in some powerful and wonderful way? Have you ever said to yourself and Him, “There is no way this is me”?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Then again, maybe i’m self-deceived. I’ve often wondered how people can sing worship songs in front of a large congregation, or audition for a show like American Idol, and have no idea how horribly off key they are. I suppose what i write that sounds beautiful to me is torturous for someone else to read, like the grating sound of fingernails scratching slowly across a chalkboard.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

I have one last question before i depart . . .

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Q. 30. Is the way that God forgives really as different as we think it is from the way He wants us to forgive?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

I do not anticipate it will take more than a few replies to answer this one. Then, i think, we shall have nothing more to discuss about forgiveness. Instead, we will sit and admire her beauty as a perfect sunrise, and pray that some of her will reflect through us.

 

[DrPiano]

No, you were right to caution me, for the story certainly might have taken a turn for the worse written by someone else. Your rebuke was respectful and kind and necessary.

Have you ever experienced moments like that Doc? Have you ever seen God work in you in some powerful and wonderful way? Have you ever said to yourself and Him, “There is no way this is me”?

Soc,

Yep - I’ve experienced things like that before. I said things, thought things, and done things that I am sure were not “of me.” Its kind of cool the way it happens (and yes, its scary that way too). Its also cool the way God takes our imperfect offerings and speaks to someone else through them. Once, I was doing a skit with people in my youth group at a youth group function. In our minds we totally botched it - dropped lines, forgot places, etc. etc. When we got done, no one had even noticed - and God used that skit in a powerful way. It was incredible.

Mostly its when I’m doing some sort of apologetics that it comes out - I’ll get an analogy or an example or something that I know just had to come from God- there is no way I could have thought of it.

As long as whatever it is that you’re inspired to do meshes with Scripture, Tradition, and the Magesterium, I see no reason to doubt that its from the Holy Spirit.

 

[DrPiano]

Q. 30. Is the way that God forgives really as different as we think it is from the way we forgive?

Actually, I don’t think its that different - but we had to help change your definition of forgiveness before we could admit that.

God loves us unconditionally. He sent his Son to die for our sins while we were still sinners. He doesn’t harbor resentment or bitterness against us. He longs to restore his relationship with us.

Usually he restores his relationship with us after we repent. God knows our minds and hearts perfectly and waits for us to want to return to him before restoring that relationship. He is the perfect gentleman. Since God can’t be in relationship with sin, it means we must renounce our sin and repent of it before the relationship can be restored.

As I showed in 2 Samuel, God’s forgiveness, although restoring our relationship with him (and therefore removing our guilt and blame and removing our eternal punishment), does not always result in a complete pardon - that is, we may still experience temporal consequences (some say temporal punishments) that are a result of our sin. They may be changed from before we repented, they may not be.

The key is that we cannot perfectly know the minds and hearts of others. Unlike God we have no way to truly know whether another person is repentant. We also have no way to know how culpable another person is for their sin. God takes a lot of mitigating circumstances into account (at least according to the Catholic church, and I believe according to the Bible). Therefore, our forgiveness ought to be more free than God’s - erring on the side of mercy. Also, forgiveness (both God’s and ours) can point to God’s forgiveness and love and can be life changing for another person. A free offer of forgiveness can be the ray of mercy that helps people see God’s love and want to change. So, again, we ought to be generous with our forgiveness.

But yes, in short, I think “forgive as the Lord forgave you” can mean “forgive because the Lord forgave you” AND “forgive while the Lord is forgiving you” and “forgive the way that the Lord forgave you.”

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Actually, I don’t think its that different - but we had to help change your definition of forgiveness before we could admit that.
… The key is that we cannot perfectly know the minds and hearts of others. Unlike God we have no way to truly know whether another person is repentant. We also have no way to know how culpable another person is for their sin. God takes a lot of mitigating circumstances into account (at least according to the Catholic church, and I believe according to the Bible). Therefore, our forgiveness ought to be more free than God’s - erring on the side of mercy. Also, forgiveness (both God’s and ours) can point to God’s forgiveness and love and can be life changing for another person. A free offer of forgiveness can be the ray of mercy that helps people see God’s love and want to change. So, again, we ought to be generous with our forgiveness.

But yes, in short, I think “forgive as the Lord forgave you” can mean “forgive because the Lord forgave you” AND “forgive while the Lord is forgiving you” and “forgive the way that the Lord forgave you.”

Yes, i’ll think about that as i walk to the post office to mail a few bills.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Whoa boy! I’m working from home this weekend and the cell has not stopped ringing. So many computer problems, so little time!

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Actually, I don’t think its that different - but we had to help change your definition of forgiveness before we could admit that.
…

Yes, i was thinking of forgiveness as one type of act, when the reality is that it is three or more. I was thinking of it as an event, when, perhaps it is more like a process. I was thinking of a person as either forgiven or unforgiven, when the reality may be closer to forgiving in degrees. Ceasing to resent might be the lowest form or least degree of forgiveness. Restoring a relationship and trust in a person might be the highest degree (or best outcome or result?) of forgiveness. Pardoning a person for her sins and absolving her from the debt she owes you might be the mean between the two.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

… God loves us unconditionally. He sent his Son to die for our sins while we were still sinners. He doesn’t harbor resentment or bitterness against us. He longs to restore his relationship with us. …

Yes, and being ready to forgive is mercy. As i mentioned before, being ready to forgive is not the same as actually forgiving. What i know now, however, is that not showing resentment is more than just mercy, for it is a way of forgiving. Accepting others, regardless of their sins, as we now agree, is an unconditional love all Christians should possess and express. (And i really do not think such love is as ugly as Goodwill’s resentful sisters made it out to be!)

Now, the question is does God forgive everyone, without exception, in this unconditional way? In other words, is there anyone who God ever resents? I do not think there is, but i might be wrong.

 

[JaneFrances]

Yes, i was thinking of forgiveness as one type of act, when the reality is that it is three or more. I was thinking of it as an event, when, perhaps it is more like a process.

Exactly. For us, as human beings, we forgive within the boundaries of time. For some, forgiveness must be a process. Those who have experienced deep and painful offences, I think, best understand the nature of this necessity. Love begets mercy. Mercy begets a will to forgive. Willing forgiveness, then, is made manifest. The process continues.

I was thinking of a person as either forgiven or unforgiven, when the reality may be closer to forgiving in degrees.

Is it degrees or, perhaps, is it manifestations? Like in the story. Unlike the story, however, they are not opposed. Rather, they are like instruments. They each play the same tune of forgiveness. Apart from each other, there is no conflict. Yet, when joined together there is a certain orchestration impossible without the full participation of each instrument.

Ceasing to resent might be the lowest form or least degree of forgiveness.

I see how it would be your natural inclination to view “ceasing to resent” as a lesser degree of forgiveness. For many it really may be the least they can do. However, in the fuller scope of human experience, it is not always the first step towards forgiveness. And for many, despite certain concessions and forgivenesses, it is never attained. Some may release others from debts owed or absolve them from offences and STILL harbor unforgiveness in their heart. Goodwill is charity. And as we know, the greatest of these is love.

 

[JaneFrances]

Accepting others, regardless of their sins, as we now agree, is an unconditional love all Christians should possess and express. (And i really do not think such love is as ugly as Goodwill’s resentful sisters made it out to be!)

I am so glad you brought this up. This is one point in the story that I found a bit overdone, too. And it didn’t begin with the resentful sisters, but rather with Goodwill’s behavior toward Enemy.

Love, as we have already discussed, is not always expressed in the same way. Goodwill is no different, especially as she so closely relates to the primary virtue of Love. You love your wife as your wife, for instance, not as the neighbor’s wife (hopefully, ).

The nature of Enemy’s offence is not unimportant here, too. Goodwill’s cavorting with Enemy was never qualified. Was the Enemy an unrepentant murderer? Was Enemy a habitual liar? Was Enemy a selfish louse? A treacherous predator? Or was Enemy a recovering gossip? She could have loved him and ceased to resent him without a forest romp. Her love could have been expressed in ways that were not so jovial and outwardly affectionate. Her love was not the scandal. Her behavior, however, could have betrayed Justice. Indeed, her behavior could have even betrayed Mercy. We simply do not have enough information from the story.

Instead of laughing in the glade with the Enemy, she could have been whispering kind things about him into your ear to soften your heart and open your eyes to see him as a child of God. She could have enlisted you to prepare with her a fire and shelter for him to find as he lonesomely navigated his way through the wood. With her as your guide, you could have awakened from your night’s fast only to continue the fast throughout the day for the sake of Enemy’s soul and for the hope of his salvation. The giggly, detached ubiquity of your Goodwill, I think, created tension in the story which was unnecessary to the nature of forgiveness.

 

[JaneFrances]

Now, the question is does God forgive everyone, without exception, in this unconditional way? In other words, is there anyone who God ever resents? I do not think there is, but i might be wrong.

Job 36
1 Elihu continued:

2 "Bear with me a little longer and I will show you
that there is more to be said in God’s behalf.

3 I get my knowledge from afar;
I will ascribe justice to my Maker.

4 Be assured that my words are not false;
one perfect in knowledge is with you.

5 "God is mighty, but does not despise men;
he is mighty, and firm in his purpose.

6 He does not keep the wicked alive
but gives the afflicted their rights.

7 He does not take his eyes off the righteous;
he enthrones them with kings
and exalts them forever.

8 But if men are bound in chains,
held fast by cords of affliction,

9 he tells them what they have done—
that they have sinned arrogantly.

10 He makes them listen to correction
and commands them to repent of their evil.

11 If they obey and serve him,
they will spend the rest of their days in prosperity
and their years in contentment.

12 But if they do not listen,
they will perish by the sword
and die without knowledge.

13 "The godless in heart harbor resentment;
even when he fetters them, they do not cry for help.

14 They die in their youth,
among male prostitutes of the shrines.

15 But those who suffer he delivers in their suffering;
he speaks to them in their affliction.

16 "He is wooing you from the jaws of distress
to a spacious place free from restriction,
to the comfort of your table laden with choice food.

17 But now you are laden with the judgment due the wicked;
judgment and justice have taken hold of you.

18 Be careful that no one entices you by riches;
do not let a large bribe turn you aside.

19 Would your wealth
or even all your mighty efforts
sustain you so you would not be in distress?

20 Do not long for the night,
to drag people away from their homes.

21 Beware of turning to evil,
which you seem to prefer to affliction.

22 "God is exalted in his power.
Who is a teacher like him?

23 Who has prescribed his ways for him,
or said to him, ‘You have done wrong’?

24 Remember to extol his work,
which men have praised in song.

25 All mankind has seen it;
men gaze on it from afar.

26 **How great is God—beyond our understanding! **
The number of his years is past finding out.

27 "He draws up the drops of water,
which distill as rain to the streams;

28 the clouds pour down their moisture
and abundant showers fall on mankind.

29 Who can understand how he spreads out the clouds,
how he thunders from his pavilion?

30 See how he scatters his lightning about him,
bathing the depths of the sea.

31 This is the way he governs the nations
and provides food in abundance.

32 He fills his hands with lightning
and commands it to strike its mark.

33 His thunder announces the coming storm;
even the cattle make known its approach.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Exactly. For us, as human beings, we forgive within the boundaries of time. For some, forgiveness must be a process. Those who have experienced deep and painful offences, I think, best understand the nature of this necessity. Love begets mercy. Mercy begets a will to forgive. Willing forgiveness, then, is made manifest. The process continues. …

Yes. I would add:

• Forgiveness by unconditionally ceasing to resent gives birth to forgiveness by pardoning the forgiven
• Forgiveness by conditionally pardoning gives birth to forgiveness by cancelling a debt of the forgiven
• Forgiveness by conditionally cancelling a debt give birth to conditionally trusting the forgiven
• Conditionally trusting the forgiven gives birth to conditionally restoring the relationship with the forgiven
• Conditionally restoring the relationship with the forgiven results in pleasing God for “I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.” (Luke 15:7)
• Conditionally restoring the relationship with the forgiven might give birth to restoring the relationship with God, for how can there be any unforgiveness in heaven?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

… Is it degrees or, perhaps, is it manifestations? Like in the story. Unlike the story, however, they are not opposed. Rather, they are like instruments. They each play the same tune of forgiveness. Apart from each other, there is no conflict. Yet, when joined together there is a certain orchestration impossible without the full participation of each instrument. …

True, acquittal and absolution are not apposed to acceptance. They play the most beautiful of harmonies when they are together.

Yes, they are not opposed to one another, but they are also not independent of one another, i think. Synonyms for resentment are jealousy and envy, and to resent a person is a kind of hatred. While it is possible to pardon a person and cancel his debt but still harbor resentment, i do not think that forgiving in this way is what God desires for any of us.

At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another. But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy.

(Titus 3:2-5)

Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in the darkness. Whoever loves his brother lives in the light, and there is nothing in him to make him stumble. But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness; he does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded him.

(1 John 2:9-11)
To continue to resent those i claim to forgive is to be blind to my own sin. When i think about it, to say i have pardoned a person that i still continue to resent is to be disingenuous or deceived. For how can a person who i continue to hate rightly be called pardoned? Likewise, to say i cancelled all the debts of a person that i still resent is to be disingenuous or deceived. For how can a person rightly be said to have all debts cancelled if i still make him pay for his sins by hating him?

So i do not agree that a Christian should ever separate acceptance from acquittal, nor separate acceptance from absolution. Though it might be good to separate acquittal from absolution, as a person you pardon might benefit from repaying the debt he owes those he wronged (as Zacchaeus the tax collector repaid all those who robbed after he encountered Jesus and repented).

This is one reason why Socrates, in the story, did not abandon Goodwill. Another reason is the one you pointed out to me:

For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

(Matthew 6:14-15)
I think you agree that these words of our Lord apply to forgiving by ceasing to resent (but not to forgiving by pardoning or cancelling a debt). So, i do not see how resentment or bitterness is an option God gives me.

Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord: looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled… .

(Hebrews 12:14-15)

And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.

(Ephesians 4:30-32)

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Jane:

I believe i might have given the false impression that i thought you were advocating harboring resentment. I do NOT believe you were!



My point was that i believe i must first deal with my thoughts of resentment before i pardon or absolve. I must repent of my desire to resent. Once i have forgiven the person in my thoughts by ceasing to resent her, i can then proceed to forgive by my actions. I do not see how i can sincerely forgive by pardoning or absolving first and ceasing to resent later. For isn’t this the reverse of the order God desires? Our Lord says:

“You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks.”(Matthew 12:34)“The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For out of the overflow of his heart his mouth speaks.”(Luke 6:45)We forgive from the inside out, i think.

“Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him.”

(John 7:38)