Forgiveness is overrated

[goodcatholic]

So what is forgiveness then? It is simply this: to not desire revenge .

Some might call that love. But I guess you have to go a step further for that by praying and wishing goodwill on them.

 

[goodcatholic]

Anyone who thinks forgiveness is easy has lived a sheltered life. And a sheltered comfortable life at that.
I am grateful that I was never molested as a child. You know it happens to a lot more people than you think. I think that kind of experience is extremely hard to forget, let alone forgive.
So I’ve been very lucky in my life. Minimal traumas. Therefore I cant preach to those who have had big traumas “oh but you must forgive your perpetrator”. Rubbish! I need to mind my own business and focus on my own lack of love. Lack of love and forgiveness. I believe one of the most hypocritical things we can do is advise someone else they should forgive others

 

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

First, I loved the clickbait title!

Second, I’ve just come off a Bible study at my Church where forgiveness was one of the topics we delved, and I really enjoyed your take on it.
I need to ponder some more

 

[MaryClare]

Maybe if I had believed forgiveness was overrated I would have been spared a lot of pain as a catholic.

 

[Eric_Hyom]

When we say the Lord’s prayer, we tell God exactly how he should forgive us, that is exactly the same way that we forgive others.

 

[vsedriver]

Forgiveness entails reconciliation and make peace otherwise it is a fake forgiveness

no, forgiveness doesn’t require reconciliation.

forgiveness is not desiring God’s perfect justice that you are entitled to when another has harmed you.

The feelings of hurt may linger for years but knowing that the offender will not be held accountable on your account is the act of forgiveness.

 

[edwest211]

Yes. Amen.

 

[Reuben_J]

Reuben_J:

Forgiveness entails reconciliation and make peace otherwise it is a fake forgiveness

no, forgiveness doesn’t require reconciliation.

forgiveness is not desiring God’s perfect justice that you are entitled to when another has harmed you.

The feelings of hurt may linger for years but knowing that the offender will not be held accountable on your account is the act of forgiveness.

You seem to be watering down forgiveness perhaps to make it more palatable. I understand that but it is not what God wants about forgiveness and there should not be watering down of it.

And this is the difficulty about forgiveness where many of us do not want to accept what it really is. We say, “Well, I forgive you but do not expect me to be nice to you. I forgive you but do not expect me to have dinner with you.” And actually by doing so we do not really forgive. It has no condition as love has no condition.

When we put a condition on forgiveness, then it becomes an imperfect forgiveness, not the standard that God wants. We are to do what God wants, not what we want.

How do we forgive seventy seven times, which Jesus said we must do? What does that mean? Literally it means just that, seventy seven times. In practice, that would perhaps mean indefinitely.

Why seventy seven times? Obviously, if that is indefinitely, we are to forgive until there is no more unforgiveness in us. In other word, until all the debt is paid.

God does not say, ok, you can forgive that person but you do not have to love him. No, God does not say that. Forgiveness is about all of you. Reconciliation is the obvious way to do it if we want to forgive. Why are you afraid to reconcile with the one you forgive? Or is it because you still cannot face that person because deep in your heart you are not able to forgive?

Christian forgiveness means to cancel all debts (ref. the unforgiving servant, Mt 18). How are you going to do that? How are you going to cancel all wrongs that your detractor had done unto you?

Reconciliation is as a mean to forgive completely, to restore relationship that has been damaged by unforgiveness. We should not harbour the feeling of hurt because it leads to anger, anger to resentment, and resentment to unforgiveness. In other word, as long we nurture our hurt feeling, forgiveness is incomplete. We have to complete it in a way that we can. Reconciliation is a very Christian thing to do.

 

[Benadam]

You forget Purgatory. Which purifies, i.e. cleanses, i.e. heals, and comes after death.

No one gets to heaven or purgatory if their sins are not forgiven. If they are forgiven what has not happened to them? Punishment. To not want the person who hurt you to suffer punishment due to them is how God forgives. So He can be united to us forever.

 

[Benadam]

Why seventy seven times? Obviously, if that is indefinitely, we are to forgive until there is no more unforgiveness in us. In other word, until all the debt is paid.

I think it’s interesting that Jesus said to forgive as many times as Lamech of Cain’s line said his revenge is more than Cain’s.

Genesis 4:24
If Cain is avenged sevenfold, truly Lamech seventy-sevenfold.”

Jesus used the same number.

Lamech is the indefinite increase of sin in man personified.

Cain and Lamech exacted revenge, it doesn’t make sense to merely say “I won’t do that” and call it forgiveness.

Rueben, great post by the way.

 

[Roguish]

Reconciliation seems like a great idea in theory, and talk of it typically gets overwhelming support from Christians and atheists alike. But it falls apart when you discover that sometimes it’s impossible, e.g. because the other party does not want it, or because the other party simply continues to offend you in the same way they did before, or any other serious practical reason that stands in the way. When you’re in that type of situation, you can beat yourself up over your “inability to forgive” – or you can open up to the insight that the possibility of reconciliation is out of your hands, and therefore cannot possibly be a required part of forgiveness. (Though as I said in my opening post, reconciliation is nice if it comes about spontaneously.)

The idea that reconciliation is a necessary element of forgiveness, is based on the mistaken notion that all enmities can be eliminated if only one makes the right effort, e.g. a good talk, seeing the other’s point of view, etc. etc. But there are plenty of enmities that one cannot eliminate, simply because there is real malice involved. To insist that “there must be a way” (to be reconciled), is therefore to indirectly subvert one’s own sense of right and wrong. For when the other is truly wrong (in the ethical sense) and shows no interest in adjusting his position, to insist on reconcilation implies that the one who is in the right must “let go” of his rightness in favor of accommodating “peace”. Truth is thus discarded in favor of attempts at pleasant relations – which won’t work anyway.

In closing, I repeat that Christ said to love our enemies. He did not say that “if only we see things aright, there are no enemies”. Such a view would not be Christianity, but new-age thinking.

 

[Cruciferi]

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[edwest211]

I wouldn’t call it New Age thinking. Some would call it pragmatic: the person or group will hate you no matter what, and still wish to do you some kind of harm even if you forgive him/them. However, ways must be found to eliminate threats to the degree that we are able. Man’s inborn sinful nature can and does compel him to do bad and immoral things to others. Hebrews 12:14

New International Version
Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.

New Living Translation
Work at living in peace with everyone, and work at living a holy life, for those who are not holy will not see the Lord.

English Standard Version
Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.

 

[thebible]

Forgiveness is not overrated.Forgiveness is the only way to get to heaven and Jesus.

Jesus said to him I am the way,and the truth and the life no one comes to the Father but through Me.

John 14:6.

That if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead you will be saved.

For with the heart a person believes resulting in righteousness and with the mouth he confesses resulting in salvation

Romans 10:9-10

 

[Cruciferi]

I say, forgive and forget. Let’s move on.

 

[vsedriver]

You seem to be watering down forgiveness perhaps to make it more palatable. I understand that but it is not what God wants about forgiveness and there should not be watering down of it.

I’m not watering it down at all. It may sound easy to do to you, but it is not.

And this is the difficulty about forgiveness where many of us do not want to accept what it really is. We say, “Well, I forgive you but do not expect me to be nice to you. I forgive you but do not expect me to have dinner with you.” And actually by doing so we do not really forgive. It has no condition as love has no condition

I didn’t say you any of that. No where did I say you can treat people badly. But no where does it say you MUST associate with people who have harmed you. It is unreasonable for you to tell a woman who has been raped that unless she sits down to dinner with her rapist she hasn’t forgiven them.

When we put a condition on forgiveness, then it becomes an imperfect forgiveness, not the standard that God wants. We are to do what God wants, not what we want.

Not desiring to associate with people who have harmed us isn’t putting a ‘condition’ on forgiveness.

God does not say, ok, you can forgive that person but you do not have to love him.

One can love someone without having to be reconciled to them or associating with them.

Reconciliation is as a mean to forgive completely, to restore relationship that has been damaged by unforgiveness

reconciliation can only take place if the offender admits their wrong doing and asks for forgiveness. However, in situations where the offender doesn’t do this we can still forgive them without being reconciled with them.

We should not harbour the feeling of hurt because it leads to anger, anger to resentment, and resentment to unforgiveness

I agree, we should not hold on to the pain of the hurt. But the pangs of hurt take time to heal over. Are you saying you can’t fully forgive someone until your ‘feelings’ are in line with your desire? I completely disagree. You can fully forgive even while feeling very hurt. The feelings eventually will fade but there will always be a wounded scar.

Again, reconciliation isn’t necessary to the act of forgiveness. It’s nice if you can but there are situations where it isn’t possible. As I cited in my example above.

 

[Sean77]

What is interesting is that I can find no scripture where Jesus places a pre-condition on forgiveness of your brother/sister. He does however tell us that when we don’t forgive, neither will we be forgiven. Just a thought.

Not sure what anger or issue you are dealing with. I hope that you will reconsider your position.

 

[IWantGod]

So what is forgiveness then? It is simply this: to not desire revenge .

To say I will not kill you, but I will not love you either, is self-righteousness. It is not from God. But forgiving does not mean that you should put your mental health or life on the line for somebody that is bad. You do not have to be friends.

To love anyone is essentially to wish them the greatest good, in which case you will help if you can, or at the very least you will not stand in the way of them having and being what is truly good.

You cannot forgive and at the same time wish them hell. In fact, you must forgive and wish them eternal heaven. By that I mean you ought to pray that all evil men change and become good. If you stand in the way of God’s will to save all sinners then how can you expect to be saved?

Who is strong enough? Christianity isn’t easy.’ It’s a war for peoples souls.

 

[AdamP88]

What is interesting is that I can find no scripture where Jesus places a pre-condition on forgiveness of your brother/sister.

Be on your guard! If another disciple[a] sins, you must rebuke the offender, and if there is repentance, you must forgive. 4 And if the same person sins against you seven times a day, and turns back to you seven times and says, “I repent”, you must forgive.’

This seems to be a precondition: Repentance. A desire to actually be forgiven. If someone never acknowledges that they have done wrong then you can’t really forgive them. You can let go of the offence, which is fine. But there’s no point forgiving someone who doesn’t even think they need forgiveness.

Not sure what anger or issue you are dealing with. I hope that you will reconsider your position.

Don’t be so patronising. This idea that “we all have to be nice to people who have hurt us and continue to hurt us” is is male bovine doo-doo.

 

[AdamP88]

To love anyone is essentially to wish them the greatest good, in which case you will help if you can, or at the very least you will not stand in the way of them having and being what is truly good.

You can wish them the greatest good by realising that they never will ask for forgiveness, so no point going down that road. But you hope they repent at some point and that they get to heaven. To equate not forgiving with hating someone is just wrong.