You sound like someone who’s never been hurt and had people tell you that you’re a bad Christian if you don’t “forgive” and stand in a circle singing kumbaya and feeling warm and fuzzy.
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IWantGod
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But God is Love and so God forgives you regardless of whether or not you repent. So that cannot be true. Now we can reject God’s forgiveness, but God never ceases to fbe what he essentially is.
Nobody is asking you to have somebody in your life that you don’t want. But consider this, there is no division in heaven, there is no "I’m not forgiving this person, this child of God that God loves"". One way or another the problems of this world have to be reconciled, otherwise perhaps niether of you will be in heaven.
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edwest211
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That last sentence was pointless and angry. Please don’t be that guy/girl.
Eh No…He won’t. An unrepentant person in a state of mortal sin will go to hell.
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IWantGod
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Quite the opposite, I have had a lot of hurt to the point of being suicidal.
But the truth is the truth, and the truth does not change to appease our emotional dislike of people. To love your enemy is to forgive them.
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edwest211
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That is purely hypothetical. No one knows what a person might think or say in his or her final moment. It seems some ax grinding is going on with this. The “let’s find that example that proves my point.” As Catholics, we all mess up, we can be forgiven. But if the world tells us that there is no guilt then they deny God Himself who will judge all - fairly.
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IWantGod
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Yes, the unrepentant person that refuses to reconcile with God is in hell. But God’'s nature never changes. He is not the kind of person that is forgiving one day and not forgiving the next. God is not an imperfect human being. Mercy is a completely unmerited gift from God.
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Roguish
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This isn’t right. The “God is Love” idea is new-age, especially when He is equated with it instead of love being ascribed to Him. In other words: “God is loving” wouldn’t quite be an error (though still a dangerous over-simplification), but “God is love” is really way off the mark. God is not limited to love, nor identified with it; He’s perfectly capable of being vengeful. For us to insist that “He’s Love” is to disregard his role as Judge. Whence this tendency to downplay judgment and play up mercy? Chesterton’s answer: “Children are innocent and love justice, while most of us are wicked and naturally prefer mercy.” It’s a profound point he makes thus, and a powerful exegesis of Matthew 18:3.
To dismiss repentance as irrelevant to God’s forgiveness, is another severe error. It is precisely unrepentance that condemns a man for good. In fact, one is not even allowed to approach confession if one is unrepentant. You seem to have lost track of this altogether, @IWantGod. You do identify as a Catholic on your profile, so surely you are familiar with the required “act of contrition”?
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fin
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I agree. People say to forgive, bu do not bother explaining what it means.
It does not mean to be friends again or to even communicate with the offender. It does not mean trustinf the offender again. If possible, just love from afar.
It does not mean to be friends again or to even communicate with the offender. It does not mean trustinf the offender again. If possible, just love from afar.
Yeah. Exactly. I feel like, when it comes to forgiveness, people tuned in for this one Gospel but didn’t hear the many things Jesus said about repentance being essential.
I mean, I have a lousy father, he never took much interest in mine or my brothers life and in recent years I made serious attempts to bridge the gap and try to have some sort of relationship with him, but eventually I just decided that this was hurting me and there’s no point trying to have a relationship that he doesn’t want. I’ll just end up disappointed.
I would be happy to forgive and have a relationship if and when he ever wants one. But I don’t see it happening so there’s not much point holding on to the hope.
I think people are far too simplistic about forgiveness. I am willing and ready to forgive, but the fact is that my father will most likely never feel like giving me the opportunity to do so.
So I’ve let go, but not forgiven, because repentance was not sought.
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alice24
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I have to disagree here. Forgiveness has three components, ideally: forgiving someone for the sake of this guilty person (especially if the person regrets and seeks forgiveness), forgiveness to please god and his commandments, and forgiveness for our own peace. If all three comes together, good, but we always have influence on part 2 and 3. And the absence of part 1 doesn´t mean it´s meaningless to forgive. It means that we are no longer victims, as forgiving is something you grant to another person, and the one who grants is always on a higher place- god grants us forgiveness, we grant it the people who harmed us. Being able to grant something means being able to leave the victim place, which is the most powerful step in regaining mental health after a serious attack on our body and mind. The mind of the guilty person isn´t that important, but for us, egoistically speaking, it matters the world. God wants us to care for the guilty and not be egoistic, yes, and therefor he wants us to fulfill their seek for forgiveness, too. That doesn´t mean we can´t use the benefits of forgiveness still when this situation isn´t ideal and in its fullest like god intended it.
The reason why modern psychotherapy fails often in cases of caring for victims of crime is that forgiveness is not longer understand as an necessary part of becoming master of our own lifes again. I noticed myself, I wasn´t fully master of my mind and body after a crime before I forgave the person.
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Benadam
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This isn’t true. St Stephen, the first Martyr forgave Saul before he repented. It’s evident that because of being forgiven by St Stephen he repented.
St Maria Goretti forgave her killer before he repented. Forgiveness is powerful to make change.
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OneSheep
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Good morning, vsedriver
I mostly agreed with your post, but I’d like to add a little extra to your comment here. I think there is a distinction to be made in terms of “forgiveness from the heart”. When I forgive from the heart, I come to an understanding of the person in which I can internally embrace the person without actually meeting the individual.
For example, we are called to forgive anyone we hold anything against (Mark 11:25). What if a person holds something against Donald Trump? The meeting in reconciliation is probably impossible, but a person could still take the steps to forgive from the heart.
Do you see how this does not apply in the Trump example? The “offender” may think he has done nothing wrong, but the offendee may still hold a grudge. However, an inner reconciliation is possible through understanding.
I mostly agree with this post. I’m a little hesitant to say “perhaps neither of you will be in heaven”, but there is some merit to the comment if it applies to life on Earth. If heaven itself, in part, is a state of reconciliation that begins in this life on earth, which many scripture scholars say is an important aspect of Jesus’ teaching, then it is true: unless their is forgiveness from the heart, that “eternity” is not realized.
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OneSheep
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Alice, your depth of insight continues to amaze me.
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OneSheep
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Good Morning Roguish,
Wow, you really have some strong feelings about this, and it seems like you have successfully formed a discipline by which when you feel the least bit vengeful, you “give it to God”. It sounds like this is working for you!
What you have been graced with is an ability to avert feelings of revenge, which is really great! What has been helpful to me in my own journey has been to pray and reflect, to understand why I would do exactly what the person did to me or someone else. This journey began when a priest told me “it is not to condemn or condone, but understand”.
Sometimes it takes a long time, and a lot of very painful admissions to understand, but such understanding is always possible. I agree with you that it is not possible to know everything about what motivates another person; it is nearly impossible to know another person deeply enough to know why they did what they did!
Now, what I said above might seem like a contradiction, but please hear me out. Somewhere, beneath what the person did, was a good intention. This can always be found. However, it is my own projection of bad intention (the post in my own eye) that is the foundation of my grudge. Once I have discovered and taken ownership of the bad intent that I have projected, then I have made a very good start at understanding. Understanding is the pathway to a deeper level of forgiveness, a “forgiveness from the heart” which results in a reconciliation with the other, even if we never meet face-to-face.
It is not obligation. It is invitation.
Wow, you really have some strong feelings about this, and it seems like you have successfully formed a discipline by which when you feel the least bit vengeful, you “give it to God”. It sounds like this is working for you!
So when John said this, was he “way off the mark”?
Well, they have perhaps left your view of religion. Let’s take a look at this very important verse:
Here, Jesus demonstrates that through observing the ignorance/blindness of the other, we can forgive from the heart, we can forgive at a deeper level. Jesus understood their position, he was able to “stand among” those who persecuted Him, which one can accomplish through prayer and reflection.
What you have been graced with is an ability to avert feelings of revenge, which is really great! What has been helpful to me in my own journey has been to pray and reflect, to understand why I would do exactly what the person did to me or someone else. This journey began when a priest told me “it is not to condemn or condone, but understand”.
Sometimes it takes a long time, and a lot of very painful admissions to understand, but such understanding is always possible. I agree with you that it is not possible to know everything about what motivates another person; it is nearly impossible to know another person deeply enough to know why they did what they did!
Now, what I said above might seem like a contradiction, but please hear me out. Somewhere, beneath what the person did, was a good intention. This can always be found. However, it is my own projection of bad intention (the post in my own eye) that is the foundation of my grudge. Once I have discovered and taken ownership of the bad intent that I have projected, then I have made a very good start at understanding. Understanding is the pathway to a deeper level of forgiveness, a “forgiveness from the heart” which results in a reconciliation with the other, even if we never meet face-to-face.
It is not obligation. It is invitation.
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Eve3
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People hurt each other for all kinds of reasons, and typically their intent is completely self focused - greed, pride, power. Forgiveness is giving up the burden in your own soul. They may never know the pain the caused and the trully evil will get enjoyment out of it. Forgiveness is to keep your own relationship with God right, not to help the other, though your example as a Christian can have amazing repercussions.
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Eric_Hyom
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I believe I was unfairly sacked from a job I had been doing for ten years. I never had a day of sick, I did a lot of the jobs other people afraid to do, caring for people with challenging behaviour and learning disabilities.
So, to help me forgive and overcome my anger, I have done about two thousand hours of voluntary work for the people who sacked me. I still continue with this voluntary work now. I have probably given them at least £15,000 of my time at minimum pay. Every now and then, I come into contact with the people responsible for my sacking.
But I cannot explain the profound sense of peace that I feel, it is beyond money. I say this, it is easier to do two thousand hours of voluntary work, than to hold onto anger for seven years.
My belief is, that the person who is able to forgive, gains more than the transgressor who is forgiven. I believe it is important to forgive, even if the other person does not say sorry.
Holding onto anger eats away at you. Anger is like picking up a burning coal, with the intention of throwing it at the person who angers you, and the person who gets burned the most is you. The longer you hold onto the burning coal of anger the hotter it becomes.
So, to help me forgive and overcome my anger, I have done about two thousand hours of voluntary work for the people who sacked me. I still continue with this voluntary work now. I have probably given them at least £15,000 of my time at minimum pay. Every now and then, I come into contact with the people responsible for my sacking.
But I cannot explain the profound sense of peace that I feel, it is beyond money. I say this, it is easier to do two thousand hours of voluntary work, than to hold onto anger for seven years.
My belief is, that the person who is able to forgive, gains more than the transgressor who is forgiven. I believe it is important to forgive, even if the other person does not say sorry.
Holding onto anger eats away at you. Anger is like picking up a burning coal, with the intention of throwing it at the person who angers you, and the person who gets burned the most is you. The longer you hold onto the burning coal of anger the hotter it becomes.
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OneSheep
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Hello Eve3,
To explain myself, I’ll address these one at a time.
Self-fulfillment in any form is of good intent. A person can often be completely ignorant of the harm done to others, but the intent is still some good. St. Augustine came to the same conclusion, as did St. Thomas, if i remember right.
It can be seen that the underlying intent is a survival instinct, which is good, but obviously the ramifications of such behavior are hurtful/bad.
Given that pride is the package of desire for power, control, dominance and autonomy, I first ask myself if I also act on these desires and take ownership of when I do (so I do not distinguish myself as being “above” these drives). Once I can see them for what they are, God-given attributes that enhance the survival of humans and other species, I can see the good intent behind actions motivated.
A person who finds joy in doing evil is blind to the value of the person harmed. Their empathy is blocked in some way, like when I am caught up in vengeful thoughts, or perhaps the person actually has an empathy disability, such as those we label “psychopaths” and “sociopaths”. These people see others as worthless, having no value, just as when I have condemned another as “evil” I fail to see value in the person. The person who finds joy in doing evil is essentially swatting mosquitos and feeling good about it, he is blind.
To explain myself, I’ll address these one at a time.
So I ask myself, “when am I self-focused, when am I doing for myself?”. I can come to painfully admit that even when I do my “greatest” service to others, I am getting some sense of satisfaction out of it. I am finding joy in their joy. It is so difficult to separate my own self-fulfillment from anything I do.
Self-fulfillment in any form is of good intent. A person can often be completely ignorant of the harm done to others, but the intent is still some good. St. Augustine came to the same conclusion, as did St. Thomas, if i remember right.
I ask myself, “when am I greedy?” and “why do I behave in greedy ways?”. I have come to accept that like squirrels and many animals, we are by nature driven to acquire far more than we need, and because desire blinds us to our empathy and conscience, we often do this at the expense of others.
It can be seen that the underlying intent is a survival instinct, which is good, but obviously the ramifications of such behavior are hurtful/bad.
“Pride” like “greed” is a word we use in a negative way about human nature. By the working of our good conscience, we naturally come to resent parts of ourselves, and certainly the drive for more stuff at the expense of others (greed) as well as the desires for power, control, dominance and autonomy (pride) we come to naturally resent.
Given that pride is the package of desire for power, control, dominance and autonomy, I first ask myself if I also act on these desires and take ownership of when I do (so I do not distinguish myself as being “above” these drives). Once I can see them for what they are, God-given attributes that enhance the survival of humans and other species, I can see the good intent behind actions motivated.
So, when I think of a person as evil, I am condemning, and certainly I have a post in my eye. I first do all I can to put myself in the place of the other, dedicate this to prayer and reflection, and there always comes an answer. With the answer, the distinction is erased. I am no less or more than anyone else, including the person I have labeled as “evil”. When I am thinking of someone as evil, it is time for me to understand and forgive.
A person who finds joy in doing evil is blind to the value of the person harmed. Their empathy is blocked in some way, like when I am caught up in vengeful thoughts, or perhaps the person actually has an empathy disability, such as those we label “psychopaths” and “sociopaths”. These people see others as worthless, having no value, just as when I have condemned another as “evil” I fail to see value in the person. The person who finds joy in doing evil is essentially swatting mosquitos and feeling good about it, he is blind.
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OneSheep
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I can really relate to this statement, I agree completely. People of other religions also set great examples. Have you heard of Eva Kor?
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