Forgiving Donald Trump and Joe Biden

[OneSheep]

Mark 11:25 NIV

And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive them, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.

Have I made a disparaging remark or had negative thoughts about anyone lately, such that I hold their words, actions, or something about them against their dignity as a loved and valued child of God?

I am seeing that Jesus calls us to a holiness that begins with a prayerful effort to identify people we hold something against, and then to forgive them.

Even if I am feeling angry righteousness about mistreatment of people or property, am I ready to forgive those who towards I am feeling some contempt or resentment? Perhaps I am not ready, but do I see the importance of committing myself to such future forgiveness, am I praying that I will forgive, and want to forgive? Before we march in a protest, let’s forgive everyone toward whom we carry a grievance. If we want peace and justice, Jesus calls us to begin with a forgiving heart, right?

From the cross, Jesus shows us how to forgive:

Luke 23:34
Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.” And they divided up his clothes by casting lots.

Jesus saw that the crowd did not know what they were doing. Can we see how those we hold something against do not know what they are doing, that they were somehow blinded of empathy or lacking in awareness?

 

[Vico]

… feeling some contempt or resentment …

Feeling is not sin. Sin is in the ill will, and one should not have ill will towards anyone. Seeking justice does not imply ill will. Forgiveness is given to those that repent and are sorry for the offense.

Catechism

1856 … When the will sets itself upon something that is of its nature incompatible with the charity that orients man toward his ultimate end, then the sin is mortal by its very object …

 

[OneSheep]

Good morning Vico!

Feeling is not sin.

Yes, I agree.

Sin is in the ill will, and one should not have ill will towards anyone.

Yes, that is the discipline, but ill will is a manifestation of contempt or negative feelings. So, to address those feelings, we are called to forgive. If you hold anything against those two politicians (or their followers), this thread may apply to you.

Seeking justice does not imply ill will.

Exactly. It implies a desire for righteousness. I am seeing that Jesus calls us to forgive “before/as we pray”, and certainly before we engage in seeking justice, we should pray about it, and keep forgiveness in mind as we do so.

Forgiveness is given to those that repent and are sorry for the offense.

If this were the case, then if someone holds something against either of the two politicians named above, and the politician never repents nor is sorrowful, the person who “hold something against” could go their whole life with a grudge against either Joe or Donald. Are you thinking that this is what Jesus asks of us, to wait a lifetime to forgive others, to take a “holding against” to the grave?

 

[Vico]

…

If this were the case, then if someone holds something against either of the two politicians named above, and the politician never repents nor is sorrowful, the person who “hold something against” could go their whole life with a grudge against either Joe or Donald. Are you thinking that this is what Jesus asks of us, to wait a lifetime to forgive others, to take a “holding against” to the grave?

Only if “holding against” means willfully willing ill to God or another or oneself is it sin. Sin is voluntary.

Forgiveness is given to those that are sorry and repent, as in the Gospel parables. The forgiveness of ones sins is given by the Holy Trinity with the condition of sorrow and repentance.

 

[OneSheep]

OneSheep:

…

Are you thinking that this is what Jesus asks of us, to wait a lifetime to forgive others, to take a “holding against” to the grave?

Only if “holding against” means willfully willing ill to God or another or oneself is it sin. Sin is voluntary.

So it sounds like as long as the “holding against” does not “qualify” as a sin, then Jesus does not call us to forgive. So, if someone “trespasses” against us, then as long as it is not a sin, even if I am holding a grudge, no forgiveness is called for?

If this is what you are saying, do you have something from Catholic teaching to support it?

Forgiveness is given to those that are sorry and repent, as in the Gospel parables. The forgiveness of ones sins is given by the Holy Trinity with the condition of sorrow and repentance.

Vico, we are talking about people. If you are saying that people are only to forgive if the other is sorry and repents, you have a very difficult case to make.

A person could say as much to rationalize holding a grudge their entire life. Is this the spirituality we are called to?

 

[Vico]

…

You wrote: “So, if someone “trespasses” against us, then as long as it is not a sin, even if I am holding a grudge, no forgiveness is called for?”

The definition (Oxford) of the verb grudge is:

be resentfully unwilling to give, grant, or allow (something).

There is a problem introduced by use of the word resentment for one sense has to do with feeling and another sense has to do with ill will. Hatred (ill will) is a sin per the fifth commandment.

(Merriam-Webster) resentment, noun

a feeling of indignant displeasure or persistent ill will at something regarded as a wrong, insult, or injury

Catechism of the Catholic Church

982 There is no offense, however serious, that the Church cannot forgive. "There is no one, however wicked and guilty, who may not confidently hope for forgiveness, provided his repentance is honest. 529 Christ who died for all men desires that in his Church the gates of forgiveness should always be open to anyone who turns away from sin. 530

529 Roman Catechism I, 11, 5.
530 Cf. Mt 18:21-22.

 

[OneSheep]

There is a problem introduced by use of the word resentment for one sense has to do with feeling and another sense has to do with ill will. Hatred (ill will) is a sin per the fifth commandment.

(Merriam-Webster) resentment , noun

a feeling of indignant displeasure or persistent ill will at something regarded as a wrong, insult, or injury

The guiding verb for Mark 11:25 is “hold against”. So, if a person holds something against another, i.e. they hold Donald Trump’s or Joe Biden’s actions or words against their dignity as a loved children of God, then the verse is applicable.

We don’t need to get to technical about this, Vico!

Jesus is saying if we have a grievance, a grudge, a feeling of resentment, a hatred, a negative feeling, a repulsion, all of the above! Forgive, forgive, forgive any trespass we hold against someone. Do you have a something that says otherwise?

982 There is no offense, however serious, that the Church cannot forgive. "There is no one, however wicked and guilty, who may not confidently hope for forgiveness, provided his repentance is honest. 529 Christ who died for all men desires that in his Church the gates of forgiveness should always be open to anyone who turns away from sin. 530

From the cross, Jesus forgave the unrepentant. Is this thread about sin?

Q. Again, if we wait for people to repent, are we to hold something against someone our entire lives if they do not? Is this to what we are called?

 

[Vico]

…

Yes, the thread topic does involve sin, which is a willful offense.

The technical differences are important for there is a real difference between feeling and ill will.

Per Cambridge Dictionary, the phrasal verb with hold verb “to hold something against someone/something” means:

to consider something as a reason to have a bad opinion about someone or something

That can be done justly. Saint John Paul II said in Encyclical Dives in Misericordia 14 , that the “requirement of forgiveness does not cancel out the objective requirements of justice. . . . In no passage of the gospel message does forgiveness, or mercy as its source, mean indulgence toward evil, toward scandals, toward injury or insult. In any case, reparation for evil and scandal, compensation for injury, and satisfaction for insult are conditions for forgiveness”

You wrote hold “actions or words against their dignity”. In agreement with what you wrote on dignity, the Catechism states in No. 1929 that “Social justice can be obtained only in respecting the transcendent dignity of man.”

You wrote: “Q. Again, if we wait for people to repent, are we to hold something against someone our entire lives if they do not? Is this to what we are called?”

A. Yes, of course, we are to remain ready for when the person asks to be forgiven, without harboring ill will, yet there may be the pursuit of justice.

 

[OneSheep]

Yes, the thread topic does involve sin, which is a willful offense.

But in this case the “willful offense”, if we must call it that (I do not) is lack of forgiveness, and for Mark 11:25, there is no precondition for forgiveness.

Q: There is an implied call not to hold anything against anyone, is there not?

The technical differences are important for there is a real difference between feeling and ill will.

Per Cambridge Dictionary, the phrasal verb with hold verb “to hold something against someone/something” means:

to consider something as a reason to have a bad opinion about someone or something

Except that Jesus said when we hold anything against anyone, we are to forgive the person. So if “holding against” is something we can do “justly”, why does Jesus ask us to forgive? OTOH, this is not a matter of “justice” at all, it is a matter of holiness. Jesus is calling us to perfection, a merciful perfection, and forgiving all those we hold something against is a means toward holiness, just as prayer is a means toward holiness.

That can be done justly. Saint John Paul II said in Encyclical Dives in Misericordia 14 , that the “requirement of forgiveness does not cancel out the objective requirements of justice. . . . In no passage of the gospel message does forgiveness, or mercy as its source, mean indulgence toward evil, toward scandals, toward injury or insult.

Very good point on the part of JP II.

In any case, reparation for evil and scandal, compensation for injury, and satisfaction for insult are conditions for forgiveness”

Unfortunately, this line completely contradicts Jesus’ forgiveness of the unrepentant from the cross.

 

[OneSheep]

Q. Again, if we wait for people to repent, are we to hold something against someone our entire lives if they do not? Is this to what we are called?”

A. Yes, of course, we are to remain ready for when the person asks to be forgiven, without harboring ill will, yet there may be the pursuit of justice.

Is that “yes, of course, we are to hold something against someone our whole lives if the person does not repent?”.

Allow me to share the gospel verse again:

Mark 11:25 NIV
And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive them, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.

 

[Vico]

…

You wrote: if “holding against” is something we can do “justly”, why does Jesus ask us to forgive?

Two senses again, as explained before.

You wrote: “But in this case the “willful offense”, if we must call it that (I do not) is lack of forgiveness, and for Mark 11:25, there is no precondition for forgiveness”, and: “Unfortunately, this line completely contradicts Jesus’ forgiveness of the unrepentant from the cross.”

There is no contradiction, for what Jesus said is about those that were not knowledgeable, yet others were knowledgeable, and they were not free from sin (as he said). There is a precondition, that one be sorry for and repent of hate.

 

[Vico]

Is that “yes, of course, we are to hold something against someone our whole lives if the person does not repent?”.

Yes, provided that holding it against is not ill will (hatred), but due for justice sake.

 

[OneSheep]

You wrote: if “holding against” is something we can do “justly”, why does Jesus ask us to forgive?

Two senses again, as explained before.

There do not appear to be two senses.

You wrote: “But in this case the “willful offense”, if we must call it that (I do not) is lack of forgiveness, and for Mark 11:25, there is no precondition for forgiveness”, and: “Unfortunately, this line completely contradicts Jesus’ forgiveness of the unrepentant from the cross.”

There is no contradiction, for what Jesus said is about those that were not knowledgeable, yet others were knowledgeable, and they were not free from sin (as he said). There is a precondition, that one be sorry for and repent of hate.

I see no support for the words “as he said”. Jesus did not say there were people hanging Him that knew what they were doing, and there were no qualifications on “they”. He said “Father forgive them, for they know not what they do.” He did not say, “Father, only forgive the ones who do not know what they are doing.” This would be a rather extreme modification, and you will not find support for it in the CCC. The crowd who hung Jesus did not know what they were doing.

Sorry, Vico, but please try to refrain from possibly discouraging people from forgiveness. Would you rather people hold something against Joe and Donald if they do not repent from what people hold against them?

 

[OneSheep]

OneSheep:

Is that “yes, of course, we are to hold something against someone our whole lives if the person does not repent?”.

Yes, provided that holding it against is not ill will (hatred), but due for justice sake.

I think you are trying to make an unsupported distinction as to the definition of “holding against”. Please provide support for your statement.

A “holding against” is any instance where a person has not forgiven from the heart when forgiveness is exactly what is needed. Jesus is essentially saying “as you stand praying, forgive those you should forgive, which is those you hold something against”.

There is no “ill will” terminology. If someone holds something against Donald Trump or Joe Biden, they can call upon the Spirit to guide them. Jesus calls us not to hold anything against anyone, and yes, if we have a sense that we are not “respecting the transcendent dignity of a person”, as per CCC1929, that is an excellent way that we can discern the Spirit.

Are we not respecting the dignity of the either of the two politicians? If so, this is an example of “holding something against” someone, and Jesus is calling us to forgive.

2840 Now - and this is daunting - this outpouring of mercy cannot penetrate our hearts as long as we have not forgiven those who have trespassed against us. Love, like the Body of Christ, is indivisible; we cannot love the God we cannot see if we do not love the brother or sister we do see. In refusing to forgive our brothers and sisters, our hearts are closed and their hardness makes them impervious to the Father’s merciful love; but in confessing our sins, our hearts are opened to his grace.

You see, Vico, when we continue to hold something against someone, for any reason whatsoever (including lack of repentance on the part of the other), then our hearts are closed and hardened. When we forgive those we hold something against, our hearts are opened to His grace.

 

[OneSheep]

As Vico implies (in summary) forgiveness does not mean refraining from action to reverse or stop injustice.

What we are called to do is to seek, and promote, social justice with forgiving hearts. Forgiveness is forgiveness from the heart, not an acquittal.

 

[EssentialBeing]

It is far to easy to extend forgiveness to those considered more important than our selves. Why does it seem much harder to extend forgiveness to those considered less important than ourselves?

It seems that we can forgive a saint for any error, but much harder to forgive a person lacking or not sharing the same knowledge of righteousness.

This question only came to me because of the selection of people the OP is asking to forgive. Should we not be trying to find ways to forgive all people that view righteousness differently to ourselves?

 

[OneSheep]

This question only came to me because of the selection of people the OP is asking to forgive. Should we not be trying to find ways to forgive all people that view righteousness differently to ourselves?

Excellent point!
Thank you. I was going to add it to the OP, but it was already to lengthy.

 

[EssentialBeing]

Yes it would make a list far too long for any forum to handle I can only have faith that we learn to extend forgiveness in all directions as we contemplate how to forgive with out any bias at all.

 

[farronwolf]

and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive them that trespass against us;

Just my two cents, but it doesn’t read:

“as we forgive those who ask forgiveness from us”

I think that is pretty clear. Should we fail to forgive, we will not be forgiven.

Not a priest, but if I were, this might be at the start of any confession. Have you forgiven those who have had offenses against you? If the answer is no, then there might be no reason to proceed.

 

[Vico]

…

I say follow the commandments. Love our neighbors therefore do not hate them.

The two senses are shown in the definition of resentment that I posted earlier:

a feeling of indignant displeasure or persistent ill will at something regarded as a wrong, insult, or injury

I wrote: “yet others were knowledgeable, and they were not free from sin (as he said).”
See Matthew 11

20 Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein were done the most of his miracles, for that they had not done penance.
21 Woe to thee, Corozain, woe to thee, Bethsaida: for if in Tyre and Sidon had been wrought the miracles that have been wrought in you, they had long ago done penance in sackcloth and ashes.
22 But I say unto you, it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment, than for you.
23 And thou Capharnaum, shalt thou be exalted up to heaven? thou shalt go down even unto hell. For if in Sodom had been wrought the miracles that have been wrought in thee, perhaps it had remained unto this day.
24 But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.