Forgiving Donald Trump and Joe Biden

[Vico]

…
You see, Vico, when we continue to hold something against someone, for any reason whatsoever (including lack of repentance on the part of the other), then our hearts are closed and hardened. When we forgive those we hold something against, our hearts are opened to His grace.

I did explain that one is not to harbor ill will, which is against the fifth commandment.

See the previous post:

The technical differences are important for there is a real difference between feeling and ill will.

Per Cambridge Dictionary, the phrasal verb with hold verb “to hold something against someone/something” means:

to consider something as a reason to have a bad opinion about someone or something

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I myself don’t feel a need to forgive either of them for anything, as neither one has personally done anything harmful to me. The people I need to forgive are the ones who have actually hurt me in my life.

I do pray for them both to God that he forgives them for their sins. I pray especially for Joe as he is the Catholic and is held to a higher standard.

 

[OneSheep]

I did explain that one is not to harbor ill will

Yes, as long as “ill will” = “holding against” then that seems to work for you.

See Matthew 11

Nothing there says that the people who hung Jesus knew what they were doing, nor does it say that any person in the crowd who hung Jesus was not forgiven.

I say follow the commandments. Love our neighbors therefore do not hate them.

Yes, forgiving Donald and Joe, if one holds something against them, is an act of love. The ability to do so is a grace from the Father.

 

[Vico]

…
Nothing there says that the people who hung Jesus knew what they were doing, nor does it say that any person in the crowd who hung Jesus was not forgiven. …

My statement was not limited to the cross. Jesus petitioned God the Father for those who had beaten and crucified him to be forgiven, revealing his will that “all men . . . be saved” (I Tim. 2:4).

 

[OneSheep]

My statement was not limited to the cross. Jesus petitioned God the Father for those who had beaten and crucified him to be forgiven, revealing his will that “all men . . . be saved” (I Tim. 2:4)

I’d rather not bring the traditional sense of “salvation” into this thread, Vico. Jesus obviously forgave those who supported His crucifixion, and he accurately observed that they did not know what they were doing.

Joe Biden and Donald Trump, when they do something offensive, do not know what they are doing. This observation and Jesus’ observation come from a place of cognitive empathy, which is a grace, it is an understanding of why people do what they do. Cognitive empathy is part of a means toward forgiveness, it is the gift of understanding.

 

[OneSheep]

I myself don’t feel a need to forgive either of them for anything, as neither one has personally done anything harmful to me.

I was just reading last night about a woman whose 11 year old son was killed by South Africa’s apartheid-era police. What happens to those we care about is very personal. We who care about the unborn are often offended by the taking of their lives, and it is very common to hold something against those who are part of allowing abortions to occur.

People have grievances against both politicians; there are plenty of reasons why a person might hold something against either or both of them.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I care about the unborn, but if someone has erroneous thinking on this matter, I do not take it as a personal wrong that I personally need to forgive. Same for those who do not agree with Catholic teaching regarding euthanasia, capital punishment, treatment of immigrants, etc.

If I went around taking it as a personal slight that needed to be forgiven every time somebody disagreed with a Church teaching in a manner that adversely affected another person on the planet, then I would spend all day forgiving half the world. I don’t think that’s how God wants forgiveness to work; for one thing, it would be a huge distraction from the actual, personal forgiving that I have to work on when someone hurts me or my close loved one (the latter is unlikely to happen now as my close loved ones are all deceased).

A more correct response is for me to ask God to forgive them their sins, and to pray for our fallen world, rather than take every bad thing people do as a personal slight to myself.

 

[OneSheep]

A more correct response is for me to ask God to forgive them their sins, and to pray for our fallen world, rather than take every bad thing people do as a personal slight to myself.

Thank you for presenting your perspective on this. You obviously hold nothing against the two named politicians. This thread is intended to encourage people to forgive if they do hold something against them, but there is a wide range of ways that people react to their actions.

 

[Vico]

Vico:

My statement was not limited to the cross. Jesus petitioned God the Father for those who had beaten and crucified him to be forgiven, revealing his will that “all men . . . be saved” (I Tim. 2:4)

I’d rather not bring the traditional sense of “salvation” into this thread, Vico. Jesus obviously forgave those who supported His crucifixion, and he accurately observed that they did not know what they were doing.

Joe Biden and Donald Trump, when they do something offensive, do not know what they are doing. This observation and Jesus’ observation come from a place of cognitive empathy, which is a grace, it is an understanding of why people do what they do. Cognitive empathy is part of a means toward forgiveness, it is the gift of understanding.

I agree that it is not necessary to mention salvation, since that petition was for those that did not understand, it would be a petition to forgive venial sin.

One can still justly have a negative opinion of those that do material evil, even though the person is ignorant.

Catechism:

1790-91 … Yet it can happen that moral conscience remains in ignorance and makes erroneous judgments about acts to be performed or already committed. This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man "takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin."59 In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.

 

[OneSheep]

One can still justly have a negative opinion of those that do material evil, even though the person is ignorant.

If a person has a “negative opinion” of someone, i.e. “I cannot trust that person”, that is different than “I hold that person’s acts or words against their value as a human, as a loved child of God”. The former is a rational decision based on past experience, and does not necessarily include a “holding against”; the latter is what Jesus was referring to in Mark 11:25. We are to forgive people we hold something against, but that does not mean forgetting, and it does not mean trusting. We can forgive people, yet distrust their ability to make wise or ethical decisions.

We are to forgive as Jesus forgave, but these things can’t be hurried. A person has to be ready to forgive. I think the importance is in recognizing that forgiveness and reconciliation, if possible, are the objective, the merciful action called for.

 

[Vico]

Vico:

One can still justly have a negative opinion of those that do material evil, even though the person is ignorant.

If a person has a “negative opinion” of someone, i.e. “I cannot trust that person”, that is different than “I hold that person’s acts or words against their value as a human, as a loved child of God”. The former is a rational decision based on past experience, and does not necessarily include a “holding against”; the latter is what Jesus was referring to in Mark 11:25.

We are to forgive as Jesus forgave, but these things can’t be hurried. A person has to be ready to forgive. I think the importance is in recognizing that forgiveness and reconciliation, if possible, are the objective, the merciful action called for.

We must go further that Jesus at the cross, who petitioned for forgiveness for those in ignorance., since, there are those that are not in ignorance that might be forgiven. As the Holy Trinity is willing to forgive each, so should we, as the Holy Trinity actually forgives upon condition of sorrow and repentance, so should we. Mercy is not contrary to justice.

 

[OneSheep]

We must go further that Jesus at the cross, who petitioned for forgiveness for those in ignorance., since, there are those that are not in ignorance that might be forgiven.

Yes, even those who are not ignorant we are called to forgive. It would be tough to make the case, though, that Donald and Joe know what they are doing when they do offensive things.

the Holy Trinity actually forgives upon condition of sorrow and repentance

Jesus did not wait for the crowd to be sorrowful or repent. His forgiveness was not conditional.

However, for a person to actually experience forgiveness from the Father, repentance is crucial. This is an important distinction, and is a guide for “being perfect” in merciful acts. It is very natural to want to withhold forgiveness for a person who is totally not remorseful about hurting people, and we may want to hang onto the grievance against the other, but withholding forgiveness itself rather distances us from relationship with God. It’s not that God does not forgive us for withholding forgiveness, but as long as I don’t forgive someone else, I am projecting that God’s forgiveness is also conditional, and I will not experience the unlimited mercy of the trinity, only a conditioned mercy.

Love is unconditional. If I condition my love and mercy of the other, I will not grasp that God does not condition His love for us; I will have a diminished understanding and relationship.

 

[Vico]

…
Love is unconditional. If I condition my love and mercy of the other, I will not grasp that God does not condition His love for us; I will have a diminished understanding and relationship.

Obeying the fifth commandment is the way.

Love is unconditional and is not contrary to justice given to those that are not actually forgiven. The Holy Trinity may be merciful even to those not forgiven, and so in the state of Hell (and that will not receive the Beatific Vision) by reducing suffering somewhat.

Catechism

1033 … This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called “hell.”

 

[OneSheep]

justice given to those that are not actually forgiven… The Holy Trinity may be merciful even to those not forgiven…

Forgiveness itself is an act of mercy.

In conclusion, Francis summarized his meditation: first, “Asking forgiveness is not simply making an apology”, but “is being aware of the sin, of the idolatry that I have done, of the many idolatries”; second, “God always forgives, always”, but He also requires that I forgive, because “if I don’t forgive”, it is in a sense as if I were closing “God’s door”. This is a door that we need to keep open: let us allow God’s forgiveness to come in so that we may forgive others.

http://www.vatican.va/content/franc...-francesco-cotidie_20150310_an-open-door.html

Bolding mine.

Vico, it seems like you are trying to be contrary here, trying to find reasons or cases where one can, or even should, refrain from forgiving. I don’t understand what your objective is. Are you trying to discourage readers from forgiving (forgiving from the heart) Joe Biden and Donald Trump if they hold something against them? This forgivness is not a controversial issue in the Church.

God’s justice is mercy, Vico. The purpose of justice is mercy, justice is a means toward mercy.

 

[Vico]

…

One should always love their neighbor. That also requires making the neighbor aware of offense, and forgiving those that repent.

Matt 18:15

But if thy brother shall offend against thee, go, and rebuke him between thee and him alone. If he shall hear thee, thou shalt gain thy brother.

Luke 17:3-4

Take heed to yourselves. If thy brother sin against thee, reprove him: and if he do penance, forgive him. And if he sin against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day be converted unto thee, saying, I repent; forgive him.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I think we’re running into the same issue that we have before on the forums when the “forgiveness” topic comes up.

I have always believed that we are supposed to forgive everyone who wrongs us, whether or not they are sorry or repentant for their bad act. My basis for this is:

• Jesus didn’t put conditions on our forgiveness of others. He simply said God would treat us like we treated others. Therefore it would seem like unconditional forgiveness is the way to go.
• There are many examples of saints forgiving people unconditionally and praying for them.
• Forgiveness is largely something that benefit us, by allowing us to let go of wrongs and love our brothers and sisters more and better. As such, if we hold onto a grudge for any reason, we are primarily hurting ourselves spiritually.

Other people including Jimmy Akin have said that we do not have to forgive anyone until they express repentance or seek forgiveness from us. They have various theological and Scriptural bases for this. I don’t agree with it but it’s out there.

 

[OneSheep]

I have always believed that we are supposed to forgive everyone who wrongs us, whether or not they are sorry or repentant for their bad act. My basis for this is:

• Jesus didn’t put conditions on our forgiveness of others. He simply said God would treat us like we treated others. Therefore it would seem like unconditional forgiveness is the way to go.

I actually never thought of “God-treatment” aspect. I have a sense that God treats us all with unconditional love, but we do not realize that love unless we love as He does, without condition. But your bullet point here makes sense.

There are many examples of saints forgiving people unconditionally and praying for them.

St. Stephen is one. Who are other examples? I am very interested.

Forgiveness is largely something that benefit us, by allowing us to let go of wrongs and love our brothers and sisters more and better. As such, if we hold onto a grudge for any reason, we are primarily hurting ourselves spiritually.

Exactly. From the A.A., the quote is “holding a grudge is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die”.

But of course there is the communal/global benefit of forgiveness. For example, there is one thing in common with every murder: the perpetrator did not forgive. Wars do not occur when leaders of nations prioritize forgiveness.

In addition, I do get a sense that many, many people in the U.S., for example, fail to forgive leaders who do things that are offensive to them. This is not the case for you, but I think there is a great deal of hatred out there.

 

[OneSheep]

Other people including Jimmy Akin have said that we do not have to forgive anyone until they express repentance or seek forgiveness from us. They have various theological and Scriptural bases for this. I don’t agree with it but it’s out there.

Yes, there is some scriptural basis for this, as @Vico presented. We don’t “have to” forgive people who don’t repent, and actually we don’t “have to” pray, and we don’t “have to” feed the hungry or visit people in prison.

Jesus invites us to do all of these, and He modeled forgiveness when from the cross He forgave the unrepentant crowd. The Gospel does present a bit of a mixed message on forgiveness, as shown in Luke 17:3-4. We know that Jesus “grew in wisdom”; does the passage from Luke present an earlier teaching, and Mark 11:25 a later one?

Does Jesus present the words captured by Luke so that people can refrain from forgiving the unrepentant without feeling guilty about it? This actually makes some sense. It is unquestionably much more difficult to forgive an unrepentant person, and I do believe that God forgives a person who refuses to forgive the unrepentant, as “God forgives always, always” as Pope Francis stated. It was a scripture scholar/priest in our diocese who clarified this for us: it is not that God doesn’t forgive those who don’t forgive, what is operating is that to the degree we do not forgive, to that degree we will believe that God does not forgive us and our relationship with God has a conditional (insecure) flavor to it. Spiritual development, coming to a deeper place of love and inner reconciliation, involves going beyond the limits of our own natural tendency to refrain from forgiving people who aren’t sorry.

Forgiveness of unrepentant enemies is a supernatural behavior.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Yeah, I don’t really want to have to answer to God for not forgiving somebody by saying, “Well, he never showed repentance or asked me to forgive him so I didn’t.”

There are plenty of people in my own life who I will never be approaching to ask their forgiveness. Some of them are dead, some of them I am not aware of doing anything wrong to (or don’t think I did anything wrong though they may think differently), and the living ones are people I had toxic relationships with and it’s best for all if we just don’t go speaking to each other or putting each other on the spot. I forgive them and I hope they forgive me. I am also sure that there are other people who never approached me to ask forgiveness for all the above reasons.

 

[OneSheep]

One should always love their neighbor. That also requires making the neighbor aware of offense, and forgiving those that repent.

As the theme of the last 2 Sundays have centered on forgiveness, this is an appropriate time to post these words:

From yesterday’s Angelus:

In the parable we find two different attitudes: God’s - represented by the king who forgives a lot, because God always forgives - and the human person’s. The divine attitude is justice pervaded with mercy, whereas the human attitude is limited to justice. Jesus exhorts us to open ourselves with courage to the strength of forgiveness, because in life not everything can be resolved with justice. We know this. There is a need for that merciful love, which is also at the basis of the Lord’s answer to Peter’s question, which precedes the parable. Peter’s question goes like this: “Lord, if my brother sins against me, how often must I forgive him?”. And Jesus replies, “I say to you, not seven times but seventy-seven times”. In the symbolic language of the Bible this means that we are called to forgive always.

How much suffering, how many wounds, how many wars could be avoided if forgiveness and mercy were the style of our life! Even in families, even in families. How many families are disunited, who do not know how to forgive each other. How many brothers and sisters bear resentment within. It is necessary to apply merciful love to all human relationships: between spouses, between parents and children, within our communities, in the Church and also in society and politics.

(bolding mine)

Today’s parable helps us to grasp fully the meaning of that phrase we recite in the Lord’s Prayer: “And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us” (Mt 6:12). These words contain a decisive truth. We cannot demand God’s forgiveness for ourselves if we in turn do not grant forgiveness to our neighbour. It is a condition. Think of your end, of God’s forgiveness, and stop hating. Reject resentment, that bothersome fly that keeps coming back.

Pope Francis Homilies

You might want to consider @Tis_Bearself words concerning the “forgive only if they repent” aspect:

Yeah, I don’t really want to have to answer to God for not forgiving somebody by saying, “Well, he never showed repentance or asked me to forgive him so I didn’t.”

Again, if a person waits for the other to repent, he could live his entire life with resentment in his heart. This is not the “eternal life” that begins on Earth. We are called to a merciful perfection. Forgiveness is an act that is very beneficial to the one who forgives:

Forgiveness is largely something that benefit us, by allowing us to let go of wrongs and love our brothers and sisters more and better. As such, if we hold onto a grudge for any reason, we are primarily hurting ourselves spiritually.