Forgiving Donald Trump and Joe Biden

[OneSheep]

It does not imply that the condition is not there. We know per Catholic dogma that repentance is a necessary condition for the forgiveness of sins, by God.

This puts Catholic dogma in direct conflict with Jesus’ forgiveness, from the cross, of unrepentant sinners.

Again, this contradiction can be explained in that a person’s experience of God’s forgiveness is conditioned upon there own repentance and forgiveness of others. But the statement that “God always forgives” by Pope Francis is accurate.

Vico, there is a part of ourselves that is entirely focused on justice, not mercy. The parable of the workers in the vineyard gives an example of justice being trumped by mercy, that the bottom line is not justice, for justice is a means toward mercy. When there is a paradox, as in the vineyard worker’s story, mercy wins.

Again I ask you, and I would like a simple yes or no answer, if that is possible:

Are you suggesting that people not forgive Donald Trump and/or Joe Biden if they do not repent from what we see as their sins?

As posted before, one should love their neighbor, and that includes any politicians.

Yes, and love is unconditional.

To love does not exclude having feelings or seeking justice or to give the approval of what is immoral, even if the does is ignorant.

I agree completely.

It can be that people use the word “forgive” in a way that is not in keeping with the Gospel, since there are multiple meanings of it. Not hating the person is the correct meaning.

So, as I pointed out in the OP, forgiveness is the antidote for “holding something against someone”. Jesus did not say “hate” in the verse, it has to do with grievances.

Are you suggesting that people not forgive Donald Trump and/or Joe Biden if they “hold something against” them? Or, are you saying this only applies if there is “hate” involved?

Colossians 3:

12 Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. 13 Bear with each other and forgive one another if any of you has a grievance against someone. Forgive as the Lord forgave you.

 

[OneSheep]

H.H. Pope Francis said (2015) in Morning Meditation In the Chapel of the
Domus Sanctae Marthae taught about this that one must have the proper disposition (to love one another and God) to receive forgiveness from God: “If I cannot forgive, I cannot ask forgiveness”.

Exactly, it is about human reception, not about God’s will or offering. God always loves and forgives, but in order for the individual to experience this forgiveness, to actually receive the gift of wholeness and love, his own spiritual state must be receptive, and receptivity comes in the form of forgiving everyone (regardless of whether the other repents! ) and repenting from sin. You see, this is how Pope Francis’ words also avoid any contradiction. God always forgives us, always.

Note also the footnote in NABRE for Matthew 18:34

w. Since the debt is so great as to be unpayable, the punishment will be endless.

Again, if this is an assertion that the fictional character chose hell, then it is a private revelation. It was a parable, Vico, people can take the freedom to interpret parables in various ways, but again, are you trying to give people reasons not to forgive Trump and Biden if they hold something against them?

 

[Vico]

This puts Catholic dogma in direct conflict with Jesus’ forgiveness, from the cross, of unrepentant sinners.

No, for if one is ignorant then the act or omission is either not a sin, or is only venial sin, which is the case that Jesus indicated on the cross. We covered this earlier.

You wrote: “Yes, and love is unconditional.”
This is true, however it does not imply that forgiveness of sin is unconditional. Repentance is a requirement.

Matt 18

35 So also shall my heavenly Father do to you, if you forgive not every one his brother from your hearts.

Decision from the heart is decision from the soul by free will.

Catechism

1711 Endowed with a spiritual soul, with intellect and with free will, the human person is from his very conception ordered to God and destined for eternal beatitude. He pursues his perfection in “seeking and loving what is true and good” (GS 15 § 2).

2563 … The heart is the place of decision, deeper than our psychic drives. It is the place of truth, where we choose life or death. …

2303 … Hatred of the neighbor is a sin when one deliberately wishes him evil. …

2302 By recalling the commandment, "You shall not kill,"94 our Lord asked for peace of heart and denounced murderous anger and hatred as immoral.
94 Mt 5:21

Anger is a desire for revenge. “To desire vengeance in order to do evil to someone who should be punished is illicit,” but it is praiseworthy to impose restitution "to correct vices and maintain justice."95 If anger reaches the point of a deliberate desire to kill or seriously wound a neighbor, it is gravely against charity; it is a mortal sin. The Lord says, "Everyone who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment."96
95 St. Thomas Aquinas, STh II-II, 158, 1 ad 3.
96 Mt 5:22.

 

[Vico]

… are you trying to give people reasons not to forgive Trump and Biden if they hold something against them?

Posted before, love one another. There should be no lack of charity.

 

[OneSheep]

Posted before, love one another. There should be no lack of charity.

Okay, it sounds like you stand with me in inviting people to forgive Donald Trump and Joe Biden if people hold something against them.

Thanks!

 

[OneSheep]

Okay folks, let’s look at an example of the standard level of “civility” in the US:

“Our current president has failed in his most basic duty to this nation. He failed to protect us. He failed to protect America. And, my fellow Americans, that is unforgivable.”

Joe Biden

Joe Biden vows to be an 'ally of light,' says Donald Trump's leadership 'unforgivable' - UPI.com

And this:

I’ll never forgive [Barack Obama] for what he did to our United States military.

Donald Trump

‘I’ll never forgive him for what he did to our military’ — Trump fires back at Obamas over comments in Michelle’s new book

So you see, it is up to ordinary Catholic faithful like CAF readers to inspire these leaders to a different way of interacting!

 

[Vico]

Vico:

Posted before, love one another. There should be no lack of charity.

Okay, it sounds like you stand with me in inviting people to forgive Donald Trump and Joe Biden if people hold something against them.

Thanks!

No hatred.

Merriam-Webster, forgive, verb
1. to cease to feel resentment against (an offender)
2a. to give up resentment of or claim to requital for
2b. to grant relief from payment of

In loving one’s neighbor and God one may still, without sin:

• feel resentment against an offender,
• claim requital (compensation),
• not grant relief from payment.