Forgiving others

[mellowcalico]

I am a bit confused by something and wondered what your thoughts are.

When someone does something wrong to me, I generally forgive that person–often right away and often even if they don’t ask. Sometimes I can tell a person really is sorry, but just can’t come to terms with telling me that. Other times they might not ask or might not know they’ve done something hurtful, so I figure it’s minor so why not just forgive and forget. And if someone asks for forgiveness, I right away give it.

Honestly, it probably has a lot to do with my non-confrontational nature. I rather things just be happy and good. I can’t stand grudges and conflict… they make me feel stressed out.

But sometimes I have a hard time forgiving when someone does something very hurtful on purpose and doesn’t ask for forgiveness (and doesn’t seem remorseful). I might put it in the back of my mind and not dwell on it, but I really haven’t forgiven the person and sometimes I will recall it.

But am I, as a Christian, supposed to still forgive?

I am confused because I think the answer is yes, but at the same time I wonder because to be forgiven for my sins to God, I have to go to confession and pretty much say, “I’m sorry” by doing so. With that train of thinking, it’s like saying God has a higher standard for forgiveness than man (but it would seem that it should be the other way around… that God is more forgiving).

Another aspect of this: in the Lord’s Prayer we say, “Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.” Does that mean we are to forgive in the same manner that we ask God to forgive us (by apologizing/confession) OR does it mean that we are asking God to forgive us by using our own personal standards (for example, am I asking God to forgive me right away like I do to others? But ask specifically for forgiveness for extremely hurtful acts?). Or conversely, is someone that doesn’t forgive easily asking God to be just as harsh when judging them?

By the way, I am NOT saying that I think I don’t need to go to confession to ask for forgiveness. I am just wondering about all this.

What are your thoughts?

 

[MtnDwellar]

Forgiveness is a rich and important subject. Thanks for starting the thread.

We tend to think that forgiveness is for the benefit of the person receiving the forgiveness. That is only partly true. The main beneficiary of forgiveness is the forgiver. For without forgiveness he is left with resentments (P.C. word for hatred). This hatred creates a wedge between us and Christ and can allow evil to penetrate.

I don’t think that the Lord’s Prayer means that we should wait to be asked for forgiveness, although it is an interesting thought. It does lead to a point of how should we forgive someone who does not seem remorseful? For me, I have found that in some of those cases, I really need a lot of grace. It is only through prayer that I am able to truly forgive. Even then, I don’t find it necessary to let the offender know that he is forgiven. If I let them know that they are forgiven, they may take it as license to commit the same act again. No, I can forgive them and let them think that I have a resentment.

 

[Apollos]

I struggled with issues like this for a long time. I am a victim of long-term psychological and emotional child abuse. When I came to my senses and realized that I was being abused, everyone told me I need to forgive my abusers. That made no sense to me. Then one day I was listening to one of those advice radio talk shows and someone called in asking if she’s supposed to forgive someone for something very bad they did to her, and the host said that forgiveness is not the same thing as saying after the fact what they did is okay.

This really got me thinking, and I realized a number of things. First, the people who were telling me to forgive were in fact in on the whole thing all along. That was suspicious. Second, I realized that getting their victims to forgive them was they way they were able to keep this going on for so long. They way it worked was they would make their victims feel ashamed of themselves for even feeling that what was being done to them was wrong, the whole honor thy father and mother thing. Third, I noticed that some of the people who forgave their abusers were people who struck me as having no self esteem and who made themselves victims for other people out of a weird concept of “being there for” the other person, the whole “he needs me” and “but I love him” and “he’s real sweet when he ain’t drinking” and “he don’t *always *beat me” thing you see on those daytime talk shows.

My favorite story about this sort of thing is from a caller to Dr Laura. Her dilemma was should she invite her uncle to her daughter’s first birthday party. The reason it was an issue was because her uncle sexually abused her when she was a little girl, but she didn’t want to hurt his feelings by not inviting him to her own little girl’s birthday party. I thought to myself, O my God, there really are people like that out there. That’s when I realized that my abusers were bona fide evil people and forgiveness is just irrelevant. These are people who say good is evil and evil is good, and once you’re there, right and wrong, forgiveness and non-forgiveness, none of that means anything to them anyway. I needed to save myself and get out. So I stopped worrying about the whole forgiveness issue because in my case, I was in a pit of pure evil, and forgiveness issues were just mind games that I was playing with myself to justify remaining a victim.

Anyway sorry if I over-answered the question, but at least that is my perspective on one part of the forgiveness issue. When somebody steps on my foot in a movie theater, I let it go. When you’re struggling in your own mind with forgiveness to evil people where right and wrong for them are all mixed up, forgiveness is a victimhood mind game and it’s irrelevant.

 

[jtodisco]

Mellowcalico, if it’s any consolation you are most certainly not the only person who has, is, or ever will have a dilemma like this one. Forgiveness is one of the hardest things about being a Christian. I too have wondered if I am only obligated to forgive major transgressions if someone seeks my forgiveness since (as you pointed out) that is what we must do with God through the Sacrament of Confession.

But somehow this sort of reasoning always leaves me feeling a bit dishonest.

Also, what forgiveness actually entails is a tricky subject as well. Is it enough that I forgive the person in my heart without necessarily saying as much to them (as MtnDwellar suggested)? Or is a necessary element of forgiveness letting the other person know they have been forgiven? I would argue that the latter is true, since you may otherwise be inflicting harm upon the one needing forgiveness by giving the impression that they are not forgiven yet. Likewise, it is very easy to lie to oneself and simply say “Oh yeah, I forgave so and so years ago” but in reality you’ve simply put them out of your mind without forgiving them.

I do agree that just because you forgive someone doesn’t mean you should let them walk all over you. Forgiveness is not the same thing as submission. Nor is it the same thing as saying whatever the other person did was morally acceptable. In fact, to forgive someone you must believe that what they did was wrong, otherwise there’d be no need to forgive them in the first place.

Sometimes I try to meditate on the Parable of the Prodigal Son as an example of how forgiveness is supposed to work. In that case the son did repent to a degree, not out of true contrition, but rather out of recognizing the self-destructive effects of his sins. Yet even with this imperfect contrition, without yet even reaching his father’s door, he is forgiven. So perhaps some repentance is necesary, even if it isn’t totally sincere at first?

In the end I wish I could give you a clear and concise answer to this dilemma, but I can’t. I myself am still struggling with trying to forgive someone who caused not only pain but great hardships in my life as a result of their selfish actions. This would be so much easier if they sought forgiveness from me, but as it is they do not recognize that they’ve done anything wrong at all despite the fact that most people would agree that the immorality of their actions is clear as day.

Anyway, sorry for rambling. Hope I was able to help you a little in the midst of so much babbling.

 

[Edward_H]

There’s a good, short book on this topic from Scepter. ~$5.00

scepterpublishers.org/product/index.php?FULL=549

Helpful to sort of tease apart what’s going on. Feelings vs. Will. Resentment, forgiving, editing.

You may not feel like forgiving in some cases, but you still “tell your will” that you do. Talk to God about. Tell your will “Let us obey God”

Who is truly the offended party (God), always.

 

[DCNBILL]

A reflection on Today’s Gospel.

Mt 18:21 to 19:1 Thursday the 19th week OT

Today’s Gospel expounds on the part of the Our Father that states, “forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.” In light of these words that Jesus gave us to pray to the Father and the clarity of the example in the Gospel, we may want to reflect a bit as uncomfortable as that may be on how we are doing in the forgiveness category. It seems to me that this is one of the hardest of the teachings of Christ to comply with. Our human nature is to take things personally, especially things that hurt us. It then becomes a matter of pride, the most insidious of vices, that keeps these wounds festering and difficult to be rid of. It would seem that the best defense and the soothing balm that we could apply to these wounds of hurt would be the virtue of humility, the destroyer of pride. Through the aid of the Holy Spirit we can pray in humble service for the person who has caused us harm, and if we continue in this prayer we soon find our selves more and more at peace with that person. For who would not eventually be able to forgive someone when they have spent time in prayer to God for that person. Now I realize that there are trespasses and then there are trespasses! The real big hurts may take a lot of prayer and consolation from the Holy Spirit in order for us to truly forgive but at least one is working in the right direction. So as we move throughout our day and wind down the week let us work on our love and humility in a spirit of prayer so that when we pray the Our Father we san speak those two lines with firm confidence in our fate, that the Father will forgive us our trespasses as we have forgiven those who have trespassed against us.

 

[simple_soul]

A reflection on Today’s Gospel.

Mt 18:21 to 19:1 Thursday the 19th week OT

Today’s Gospel expounds on the part of the Our Father that states, “forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.” In light of these words that Jesus gave us to pray to the Father and the clarity of the example in the Gospel, we may want to reflect a bit as uncomfortable as that may be on how we are doing in the forgiveness category. It seems to me that this is one of the hardest of the teachings of Christ to comply with. Our human nature is to take things personally, especially things that hurt us. It then becomes a matter of pride, the most insidious of vices, that keeps these wounds festering and difficult to be rid of. It would seem that the best defense and the soothing balm that we could apply to these wounds of hurt would be the virtue of humility, the destroyer of pride. Through the aid of the Holy Spirit we can pray in humble service for the person who has caused us harm, and if we continue in this prayer we soon find our selves more and more at peace with that person. For who would not eventually be able to forgive someone when they have spent time in prayer to God for that person. Now I realize that there are trespasses and then there are trespasses! The real big hurts may take a lot of prayer and consolation from the Holy Spirit in order for us to truly forgive but at least one is working in the right direction. So as we move throughout our day and wind down the week let us work on our love and humility in a spirit of prayer so that when we pray the Our Father we san speak those two lines with firm confidence in our fate, that the Father will forgive us our trespasses as we have forgiven those who have trespassed against us.

Thank you Bill for sharing this very good reflection.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

I
But sometimes I have a hard time forgiving when someone does something very hurtful on purpose and doesn’t ask for forgiveness (and doesn’t seem remorseful). I might put it in the back of my mind and not dwell on it, but I really haven’t forgiven the person and sometimes I will recall it.

But am I, as a Christian, supposed to still forgive?

This is the nitty gritty of your question. If the offence is minor and doesn’t do much damage, then forgiving is not very hard. It’s more a case of being forgetful and just letting it go.

But when someone has done something quite hurtful, and which may serious lifelong consequences, that’s when the rubber hits the road, especially if the offence was deliberate.

It’s something I struggle with in regard to a number of people, particularly my own father, and even God, who has been quite unfair in some ways. However I also have to recognise that there are a small number of people who have a right to feel very offended by some of my past behaviour, one person in particular.

Unfortunately God expects us to forgive, or He will not forgive us.

It can be a very tough order. There’s a small book about a Dutch woman named Corrie Ten Boom (a Protestant), who endured a Nazi concentation camp along with her family for hiding Jews. She lost most of her family and her sister died in the same camp she was in.

After the war she found herself with some sort of ministry, especially in Germany where there had been so much darkness. At one meeting a former prison guard came forward. It took all she had to forgive him, but she did so. As she did so, she experienced God’s love descending through her.

But it would not have been easy. It didn’t bring back her sister, undo the suffering, alleviate the loss of her family and all the rest. Yet God demanded it. That’s the problem with forgiveness. It does not undo the damage, and that’s when it’s costly. Christ’s forgiving His enemies didn’t get Him off the cross.

And sometimes I think God expects us to forgive Him. He can be unfair too. Perhaps He wants to experience the same sort of acceptance as we do by virtue of being human, to be one of the family so to speak, rather than just being the ‘terrible Judge’ all the time. He might want His love returned in the form of personal forgiveness.

My old pastor thought so. At one stage he said, “I think you might have to forgive God. He’s had to forgive you a few things, you know.”

 

[Bob_Crowley]

…

My old pastor thought so. At one stage he said, “I think you might have to forgive God. He’s had to forgive you a few things, you know.”

Actually I think his wording was more along the line of “I think God might want you to forgive Him. He’s had to forgive you a few things, you know.”

He phrased it in the direct affirmative sense.

 

[distracted]

I am a bit confused by something and wondered what your thoughts are.

When someone does something wrong to me, I generally forgive that person–often right away and often even if they don’t ask. Sometimes I can tell a person really is sorry, but just can’t come to terms with telling me that. Other times they might not ask or might not know they’ve done something hurtful, so I figure it’s minor so why not just forgive and forget. And if someone asks for forgiveness, I right away give it.

Honestly, it probably has a lot to do with my non-confrontational nature. I rather things just be happy and good. I can’t stand grudges and conflict… they make me feel stressed out.

But sometimes I have a hard time forgiving when someone does something very hurtful on purpose and doesn’t ask for forgiveness (and doesn’t seem remorseful). I might put it in the back of my mind and not dwell on it, but I really haven’t forgiven the person and sometimes I will recall it.

But am I, as a Christian, supposed to still forgive?

I am confused because I think the answer is yes, but at the same time I wonder because to be forgiven for my sins to God, I have to go to confession and pretty much say, “I’m sorry” by doing so. With that train of thinking, it’s like saying God has a higher standard for forgiveness than man (but it would seem that it should be the other way around… that God is more forgiving).

Another aspect of this: in the Lord’s Prayer we say, “Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.” Does that mean we are to forgive in the same manner that we ask God to forgive us (by apologizing/confession) OR does it mean that we are asking God to forgive us by using our own personal standards (for example, am I asking God to forgive me right away like I do to others? But ask specifically for forgiveness for extremely hurtful acts?). Or conversely, is someone that doesn’t forgive easily asking God to be just as harsh when judging them?

By the way, I am NOT saying that I think I don’t need to go to confession to ask for forgiveness. I am just wondering about all this.

What are your thoughts?

haven’t read all posts…

i have a hard time forgiving those who do awful things and then never begin to say they are sorry…

in St Mt 18:23 it speaks of being forgiven by God and then not wanting to forgive others who owe you so much less than you owed God… but the interesting thing is, the person who was forgiven refusedto forgive someone who BEGGED him for forgivenss… I don’t know anyone in my life who has hurt me who would even THINK of begging for forgiveness… much less would they DO it… So if you went on that psg alone… you would think that the person would have to ASK for forgiveness before you were required to give it(?)… but i get the general impression that we are supposed to forgive regardless of whether they ask or not?

hope not or I am doomed…

i mean there are some things that are so seemignly unforgivable. I have forgiven this one person, for example… for terrible stuff… even tho the person didn’t ASK to be forgiven… and didn’t ACT sorry (but only God can judge that kind of thing)… I don’t like this person (just being honest) and don’t feel the person is one bit sorry (tho the person said so once in a very vague, glib kind of way)… The reason i don’t think the person is sorry (I’ll call the person C) is cuz C keeps doing the same kind of stuff C said C was sorry for… That hardly indicates great sorrow or repentance… Even so i have forgiven to the best of my abiliy. i stay away from C cuz C basically drives me nuts w/ this kind of (what i call) inexcusable ) behavior… God knows what psych reasons C has 4 acting as C does… I no longer care cuz have been dealing w/ the situation for TOO freaking long… God can deal with it… He’s big enough. He knows C inside & out… whereas I don’t…

anyhow… not sure this helps… probably not…

i guess what i am saying is that if someone is not good for you, yes, forgive… but don’t have anything to do wtih the person other than to pray for him/her… i mean if a person does some evil to you over and over … its time to get out of that person’s way…

 

[distracted]

This is the nitty gritty of your question. If the offence is minor and doesn’t do much damage, then forgiving is not very hard. It’s more a case of being forgetful and just letting it go.

But when someone has done something quite hurtful, and which may serious lifelong consequences, that’s when the rubber hits the road, especially if the offence was deliberate.

It’s something I struggle with in regard to a number of people, particularly my own father, and even God, who has been quite unfair in some ways. However I also have to recognise that there are a small number of people who have a right to feel very offended by some of my past behaviour, one person in particular.

Unfortunately God expects us to forgive, or He will not forgive us.

It can be a very tough order. There’s a small book about a Dutch woman named Corrie Ten Boom (a Protestant), who endured a Nazi concentation camp along with her family for hiding Jews. She lost most of her family and her sister died in the same camp she was in.

After the war she found herself with some sort of ministry, especially in Germany where there had been so much darkness. At one meeting a former prison guard came forward. It took all she had to forgive him, but she did so. As she did so, she experienced God’s love descending through her.

But it would not have been easy. It didn’t bring back her sister, undo the suffering, alleviate the loss of her family and all the rest. Yet God demanded it. That’s the problem with forgiveness. It does not undo the damage, and that’s when it’s costly. Christ’s forgiving His enemies didn’t get Him off the cross.

And sometimes I think God expects us to forgive Him. He can be unfair too. Perhaps He wants to experience the same sort of acceptance as we do by virtue of being human, to be one of the family so to speak, rather than just being the ‘terrible Judge’ all the time. He might want His love returned in the form of personal forgiveness.

My old pastor thought so. At one stage he said, “I think you might have to forgive God. He’s had to forgive you a few things, you know.”

wow… this was interesting…

I’ll have to think about this part more later, i think: . And sometimes I think God expects us to forgive Him. He can be unfair too. Perhaps He wants to experience the same sort of acceptance as we do by virtue of being human, to be one of the family so to speak, rather than just being the ‘terrible Judge’ all the time. He might want His love returned in the form of personal forgiveness.



so maybe god is deliberately unfair sometimes… to see if we will continue to love HIm? I have often seen that God needs to be loved no matter what… but i never thougth of it this exact way before…

hmmm… this almost seems to explain a few things… things that have happened to me and i couldn’t figure out why God would allow them to happen… One time i prayed and asked god why he allowed this one evil thing to happen to me… I think i even heard the words (?) in my head (if i recall): “The devil”

and it was like… Ok, that helps… but why did You LET the devil do that?

i am still waiting for an answer to that one…

but maybe this is the answer: that he wants me to “forgive Him”???

hmm…

 

[lutherlic]

I know where you are coming from.

No matter how egregious the wrong that you suffered, you must forgive or that wrong will be compounded by what you do to yourself. It can be a very, very heavy burden but it is one you can totally free yourself from. Your forgiveness may also have an impact on the person that you forgive (although probably that impact will remain unknown to you).

FWIW - I wrote a brief piece on this general topic here.

 

[distracted]

I know where you are coming from.

No matter how egregious the wrong that you suffered, you must forgive or that wrong will be compounded by what you do to yourself. It can be a very, very heavy burden but it is one you can totally free yourself from. Your forgiveness may also have an impact on the person that you forgive (although probably that impact will remain unknown to you).

FWIW - I wrote a brief piece on this general topic here.

who are you addressing this to? distracted??

 

[lutherlic]

who are you addressing this to? distracted??

Hi distracted. It is not addressed to anyone in particular, it is just my thoughts on the general topic raised by the OP. To be frank, it is one of many areas I had the motivation to reconsider in my own life when I recently converted. It was something that I wrongly did not give enough attention to and was quite difficult at first, but I now consider to be very important.

(I see the thread has recently included a notion of “forgiving God”. My comments do not apply to that and FWIW, I think is completely flawed.)

 

[distracted]

Hi distracted. It is not addressed to anyone in particular, it is just my thoughts on the general topic raised by the OP. To be frank, it is one of many areas I had the motivation to reconsider in my own life when I recently converted. It was something that I wrongly did not give enough attention to and was quite difficult at first, but I now consider to be very important.

(I see the thread has recently included a notion of “forgiving God”. My comments do not apply to that and FWIW, I think is completely flawed.)

FWIW???

 

[Bob_Crowley]

hmmm… this almost seems to explain a few things… things that have happened to me and i couldn’t figure out why God would allow them to happen… One time i prayed and asked god why he allowed this one evil thing to happen to me… I think i even heard the words (?) in my head (if i recall): “The devil”

hmm…

Well, there is a spiritual war on, and the devil may have been responsible. In my opiinion, the story of Job is fiction from start to finish, but at the same time i think there’s a spiritual truth behind it. I think God does allow the devil to have a go at us to test our faith.

As for being “unfair” - why were you born into what I assume is a fairly prosperous Western nation with numerous freedoms, and someone else is born into a third world country, with insufficient to eat, corruption in government and endemic violence? Was God fair to the other person compared to you?

In that respect God is “unfair”. Even within a society some people seem to get all the breaks, and others get nothing. Again there is a form of unfairness at work.

In your case the devil may well have been responsible for whatever situation came about. Generally he works through people, as does God. It’s fairly rare that either works directly in someone’s life, but they nearly always work through their human agents.

I suppose it’s one of the rules of this peculiar spiritual chess game they both seem to be playing.

Our part, as the white pawns on the chess board, includes from time to time forgiving the black pawns, bishops, rooks, kings and queens. But it doesn’t include forgiving the black chess master. It might mean forgiving the white Chess Master when he uses us brutally or unfairly. He’s probably doing it for a strategic reason, but the fact is that He is often “unfair”. The winning move was Christ’s crucifixion and resurrection. From that time on the game was decided in practice. but the closing moves are still being carried out.

But I wonder if Christ thought His own scourging and crucifixion was “fair”? Did He do something to deserve it?

We’re not told much really about what’s going on in heavenly and hellish places. All we can do is stumble along one day at a time. And that includes forgiving those who hurt us.

And it’s not easy.

 

[MtnDwellar]

Hi Bob,

Very interesting thoughts. I sometimes think about a chess analogy. In my analogy God is a chess master. We have an option of sitting beside Him and letting Him move our pieces. He is always about 6 moves ahead. It is impossible for someone like me to figure out the strategy. Sometimes sacrificing a pawn, bishop, or even a queen is part of the winning strategy. What appears to be unfairness is actually strategic! If I lose faith and decide to make some moves on my own, I can screw up an otherwise winning strategy.

Job is often a part of such discussions. Most see Job as an innocent victim. Why would God allow such terrible things to happen to someone who He loved? The answer is often overlooked, but is at the end of the third chapter. Job states that his biggest fears are coming true. Fear is the opposite of faith. Even though Job loved the Lord and made sacrifices, etc. His faith was lacking. Satan was allowed to attack Job in order to strengthen Job’s faith.

Part of forgiveness is acceptance. We have to accept the actions of others as part of God’s strategy. It is often said that everything happens for a reason. Although I don’t understand the reasons, I have faith that sufferings along the way will lead to a winning strategy.

 

[mellowcalico]

Thanks everyone.

I actually like to forgive and it comes easily too me for the most part. I think it’s because I just want everything to be peaceful and good. I despise conflict and don’t like it when people are angry with each other. Oddly enough, I love a good, friendly debate though.

Most times people don’t ask for forgiveness and I just forgive them in my heart (somehow it seems condescending to say “I forgive you” to someone who didn’t ask to be forgiven. It’s like you are pointing out their faults to them).

But there are those few times when it’s hard to forgive especially when someone doesn’t ask for it or repeatably hurts you. I’ve taken the course of just steering clear of the person.

The Parable of the Prodigal Son is an interesting way of looking at things. Thank you for sharing that. I think I need to reflect on it a little more.

 

[distracted]

Well, there is a spiritual war on, and the devil may have been responsible. In my opiinion, the story of Job is fiction from start to finish, but at the same time i think there’s a spiritual truth behind it. I think God does allow the devil to have a go at us to test our faith.

As for being “unfair” - why were you born into what I assume is a fairly prosperous Western nation with numerous freedoms, and someone else is born into a third world country, with insufficient to eat, corruption in government and endemic violence? Was God fair to the other person compared to you?

In that respect God is “unfair”. Even within a society some people seem to get all the breaks, and others get nothing. Again there is a form of unfairness at work.

In your case the devil may well have been responsible for whatever situation came about. Generally he works through people, as does God. It’s fairly rare that either works directly in someone’s life, but they nearly always work through their human agents.

I suppose it’s one of the rules of this peculiar spiritual chess game they both seem to be playing.

Our part, as the white pawns on the chess board, includes from time to time forgiving the black pawns, bishops, rooks, kings and queens. But it doesn’t include forgiving the black chess master. It might mean forgiving the white Chess Master when he uses us brutally or unfairly. He’s probably doing it for a strategic reason, but the fact is that He is often “unfair”. The winning move was Christ’s crucifixion and resurrection. From that time on the game was decided in practice. but the closing moves are still being carried out.

But I wonder if Christ thought His own scourging and crucifixion was “fair”? Did He do something to deserve it?

We’re not told much really about what’s going on in heavenly and hellish places. All we can do is stumble along one day at a time. And that includes forgiving those who hurt us.

And it’s not easy.

so true… its not easy cuz… how can you forgive certain terrible evils? I’ve never been molested, but i often wondered how anyone could forgive such a thing? and the things i have been victim of… have been absolutely horrible things so it seems that forgiving the perpetrator is condoning what he’s done. i know in theory thats not what forgiveness is… but it SEEMS like it sometimes… feels like it. But we aren’t to go by feelings… If we did that, we would NEVER forgive…

Have you ever had a close friend or relative who did the Damned if You Do D-If-U-Dont thing on you? in other words, they play this game where nothing you do is the right thing?? and if you do nothing that’s wrong too? Wel, ive had a few people in my life like that. fortunately these kind are somewhat rare but i had the luck of getting 2 of them in my life… or maybe more… just can’t think right now…

anyhow… they do evil against you, then… when you respond… no matter HOW you respond, you are the evil one… geeze…

is there an excuse for that??

 

[distracted]

Hi Bob,

Very interesting thoughts. I sometimes think about a chess analogy. In my analogy God is a chess master. We have an option of sitting beside Him and letting Him move our pieces. He is always about 6 moves ahead. It is impossible for someone like me to figure out the strategy. Sometimes sacrificing a pawn, bishop, or even a queen is part of the winning strategy. What appears to be unfairness is actually strategic! If I lose faith and decide to make some moves on my own, I can screw up an otherwise winning strategy.

Job is often a part of such discussions. Most see Job as an innocent victim. Why would God allow such terrible things to happen to someone who He loved? The answer is often overlooked, but is at the end of the third chapter. Job states that his biggest fears are coming true. Fear is the opposite of faith. Even though Job loved the Lord and made sacrifices, etc. His faith was lacking. Satan was allowed to attack Job in order to strengthen Job’s faith.

Part of forgiveness is acceptance. We have to accept the actions of others as part of God’s strategy. It is often said that everything happens for a reason. Although I don’t understand the reasons, I have faith that sufferings along the way will lead to a winning strategy.

i wish i dwelt in a mountain setting… about 100 miles from any humanoid… well, maybe 50… wouldn’t want to have to drive too far to get groceries… but anyhow… where was I??

i like what you say about Job needing somehing in his thing w/ God…

i always thought Job was a true story… Is ther any proof that it s not??