Forgiving others

[Edmundus1581]

I struggled with issues like this for a long time. I am a victim of long-term psychological and emotional child abuse. When I came to my senses and realized that I was being abused, everyone told me I need to forgive my abusers…
This really got me thinking, and I realized a number of things. First, the people who were telling me to forgive were in fact in on the whole thing all along…Second, I realized that getting their victims to forgive them was they way they were able to keep this going on for so long. They way it worked was they would make their victims feel ashamed of themselves for even feeling that what was being done to them was wrong…
Anyway sorry if I over-answered the question, but at least that is my perspective on one part of the forgiveness issue. When somebody steps on my foot in a movie theater, I let it go. When you’re struggling in your own mind with forgiveness to evil people where right and wrong for them are all mixed up, forgiveness is a victimhood mind game and it’s irrelevant.

First, you did not overstate the issue! I read your whole post, and it related to my own experience. I personally did not suffer from abuse as a child, but I did suffer severe trauma, which left me with low self esteem, and a vulnerability to exploitation. As an adult I suffered from the sort of psychological abuse you describe, over ten years, where the abuse is delivered hand in hand with the message “Don’t overreact - we know more than you - don’t be weird - don’t hold a grudge”, while there was no intention to stop the abuse, or apologise. From the time the abuse stopped, and I was out of the situation (thank God!), I struggled with forgiveness, and would try and say, over and over again “Forgive them lord”, but I knew that I didn’t mean it in my heart. However, it was only over several years that I actually came to understand the depth of the abuse, and how much it had damaged me. Somehow, the more I understood it, and accepted it as genuine abuse, the easier it became to forgive. Unfortunately, I was not in a position to undergo any counselling with a good Catholic, but i think that would have hastened the process.

Two things I do to forgive, when it seems impossible:

• I think, do I want to spend eternity in hell? Answer - no. So I think also of my abusers, and I realise that I don’t want them, or anyone, to spend eternity in hell, so I pray “Lord, save them from hell” (and I say that with heartfelt sincerity);
• I think of my spiritual state before the abuse, and now, and realize that although I have lost a lot physically and emotionally, that my spiritual state is much better, and the abuse not only assisted it, but, in fact, is probably the greatest gift I have received, spiritually (for myself, and my children). I say “thankyou” to my abusers for that. I think of Joseph, who said to his brothers, when they were in his power “You meant me harm, but through your actions many have been saved, so I will bless you and your little ones”. In this passage in Genesis Joseph first sees that they have changed and repented, but that is the old covernant - I think that in the new covenant we must dispense with the pre-condition.

 

[Robert_Sock]

For many, forgiveness is a difficult virtue to master. When we learn the power and wisdom of forgiveness, we are bound to have reached an advanced level of spiritual maturity. Regardless the nature of any possible abuse that we may have endured, nor the severity of that abuse, full recovery from abuse cannot be achieved until we truly forgive our abuser(s). Any anger or resentment we hold within us, live and thrive within us, and become a part of our very self. We will never rid ourselves of this anger and resentment until we experience true forgiveness towards all. Seeing our tormentors suffer a thousand times over will only add to our own misery.

 

[distracted]

For many, forgiveness is a difficult virtue to master. When we learn the power and wisdom of forgiveness, we are bound to have reached an advanced level of spiritual maturity. Regardless the nature of any possible abuse that we may have endured, nor the severity of that abuse, full recovery from abuse cannot be achieved until we truly forgive our abuser(s). Any anger or resentment we hold within us, live and thrive within us, and become a part of our very self. We will never rid ourselves of this anger and resentment until we experience true forgiveness towards all. Seeing our tormentors suffer a thousand times over will only add to our own misery./

uh… speak for yourself…

i have found that (contrary to what i once felt to be true) i really do forgive people…

but i have a hard time forgiving EVIL… which i guess is not what we are required to do … We are required to forigive humans…

But one of the drawbacks (as it were) of loving Jesus is that you hate sin more… but again, we are not called to forgive sin… or accept evil…

just feels like it sometimes when we are struggling to forgive…

 

[Edmundus1581]

Somehow, the more I understood it, and accepted it as genuine abuse, the easier it became to forgive.

Sorry to quote my own words, but I’ve had a thought on this. I think that what’s happening here is that I am being realistic about the objective nature of the abuse, and it’s immediate and long term effects. The problem with serious abusers, as several of us have experienced in this thread, is that they abuse from a position of power, and with extreme self-righteousness, and we, at the time of the abuse, assent to it. It takes years to understand and accept that we were not to blame, and that all the self-righteouosness of the abuser is just deception. However, as we come to understand this, it also puts the abuse, and the abuser, into perspective. In a sense, we become the powerful ones, as we now have the power to forgive. We can be like our Father in Heaven. However, I don’t think there is any shortcut to this final step - it only comes with unravelling the abuse and the deceptive messages.

Remember that Jesus most severe words were for the pharisees and hypocrites. These were the only sinners for whom Jesus gave lengthy exposition of their sin. And yet, He also forgave them, in His agony, and in their moment of victory. (And He had no sin of his own to expiate, whereas we have plenty)

The recent scandals are just so relevant here. The Church recognises the serious, lifelong consequences of the abuse. It doesn’t say to the abused “Yes, we are sorry, here’s some money, now get over it”, but rather it accepts that being honest about what actually happened is essential to the recovery of the abused, and to them being able to forgive.

Most of us will never get that sort of honesty from our abusers, but we can, with time and effort, be honest with ourselves about it.

Unfortunately, I was not in a position to undergo any counselling with a good Catholic, but i think that would have hastened the process.

I repeat that advise.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

i always thought Job was a true story… Is ther any proof that it s not??

For Job to be a true story set in a fictional land called Uz, you would need to have a scribe sitting by, industriously churning out page after page of briliant poetry, on potsherd or parchment, and then rush it off to the Scribes to ensure it was part of Scripture, while 3 mates of his sat in an ash heap telling him, poetically, that he’d stuffed it up somehow.

Plus the scribe would need a hotline to heaven and hell so that he knew what God and the devil were doing.

Then you’d need the opposite to happen almost miraculously - the restoration of Job’s entire fortune and family manifold. It’s my experience that for most people who suffer significant loss, this is the one thing that doesn’t happen.

As far as I’m concerned the whole thing stretches credibility to be a true story, just as much as Jonah does, or Tobit. But there is still spiritual truth in the story. Christ Himself used parables, aka stories, to get across spiriitual truths. I doubt if there ever was a Good Samaritan in reality, since they and the Jews loathed each other. If a Jew had been beated on the way to Jericho, and a real Samaritan came along, he’d probably have put the boot in for good measure. And vice versa, except a Jew would possibly have blanched from making his boot “unclean”.

Christ used the Samaritan as the hero of the story precisely because the Jews hated them. Even when the lawyer admitted who was the good neighbour, he still couldn’t bring himself to say the hated word, Instead he said, “I suppose the one who …”.

I think Job is fiction. Brilliant poetic fiction. And it serves a spiritual purpose.

 

[MtnDwellar]

Then you’d need the opposite to happen almost miraculously - the restoration of Job’s entire fortune and family manifold. It’s my experience that for most people who suffer significant loss, this is the one thing that doesn’t happen.

I have come to the opinion that material possessions are irrelevant in heaven. When Job’s fortune is restored above its original value, I think that it refers to a kind of spiritual wealth.

I think Job is fiction. Brilliant poetic fiction. And it serves a spiritual purpose.

So, fact or fiction does not matter.

 

[distracted]

Sorry to quote my own words, but I’ve had a thought on this. I think that what’s happening here is that I am being realistic about the objective nature of the abuse, and it’s immediate and long term effects. The problem with serious abusers, as several of us have experienced in this thread, is that they abuse from a position of power, and with extreme self-righteousness, and we, at the time of the abuse, assent to it. It takes years to understand and accept that we were not to blame, and that all the self-righteouosness of the abuser is just deception. However, as we come to understand this, it also puts the abuse, and the abuser, into perspective. In a sense, we become the powerful ones, as we now have the power to forgive. We can be like our Father in Heaven. However, I don’t think there is any shortcut to this final step - it only comes with unravelling the abuse and the deceptive messages.

Remember that Jesus most severe words were for the pharisees and hypocrites. These were the only sinners for whom Jesus gave lengthy exposition of their sin. And yet, He also forgave them, in His agony, and in their moment of victory. (And He had no sin of his own to expiate, whereas we have plenty)

The recent scandals are just so relevant here. The Church recognises the serious, lifelong consequences of the abuse. It doesn’t say to the abused “Yes, we are sorry, here’s some money, now get over it”, but rather it accepts that being honest about what actually happened is essential to the recovery of the abused, and to them being able to forgive.

Most of us will never get that sort of honesty from our abusers, but we can, with time and effort, be honest with ourselves about it.

.

i almost didn’t read this post cuz it wasn’t addressed to me… but when i started reading it, i began to feel things. The words hit home… I wasn’t abused by anyone who worked for the Church… its a long story and… not sexual abuse… but … well, i dont want to go into the details in a public forum… but anyhow… my abuser was in this position of power and was self-righteous, as you say… & the damage was EXTENSIVE… Every now & then i get some new insight into just how much damage this person did to me… long-term damage that never seems to be TOTALLY healed… (damage not many humans, including myself, see on a regular basis… you know how we hide things, etc…)

I have to say Jesus has done a great job on me, tho… but being human, i don’t always… SEE much less FACE certain painful things and you cna’t fix a problem you don’t even acknowledge is there… which is one reason I like to spend time at the Blessed Sacrament… When i am There, Jesus shows me things i don’t always “want” to face…When i am There i can face things… anything, because He is There with me… things don’t affect me the same way There as elsewhere…

but when i am not There… totally different story…

anyway… i forgive the person, but i despise what the person did to me… and cannot fathom how someone could do such a thing…

I’m reading this book about a ganster in the 20s… I knew there would be plenty of violence/murder in the book so almost didn’t bother reading it… but was surprised at how violent the story of his life really was… uch:

Its horribe that people killed over booze… and $$…

and yet its one thing to hurt someone you don’t know… some business partner…

i have a hard time u/standng how people who are supposed to love you can do certain things…

 

[distracted]

For Job to be a true story set in a fictional land called Uz, you would need to have a scribe sitting by, industriously churning out page after page of briliant poetry, on potsherd or parchment, and then rush it off to the Scribes to ensure it was part of Scripture, while 3 mates of his sat in an ash heap telling him, poetically, that he’d stuffed it up somehow.

Plus the scribe would need a hotline to heaven and hell so that he knew what God and the devil were doing.

Then you’d need the opposite to happen almost miraculously - the restoration of Job’s entire fortune and family manifold. It’s my experience that for most people who suffer significant loss, this is the one thing that doesn’t happen.

As far as I’m concerned the whole thing stretches credibility to be a true story, just as much as Jonah does, or Tobit. But there is still spiritual truth in the story. Christ Himself used parables, aka stories, to get across spiriitual truths. I doubt if there ever was a Good Samaritan in reality, since they and the Jews loathed each other. If a Jew had been beated on the way to Jericho, and a real Samaritan came along, he’d probably have put the boot in for good measure. And vice versa, except a Jew would possibly have blanched from making his boot “unclean”.

Christ used the Samaritan as the hero of the story precisely because the Jews hated them. Even when the lawyer admitted who was the good neighbour, he still couldn’t bring himself to say the hated word, Instead he said, “I suppose the one who …”.

I think Job is fiction. Brilliant poetic fiction. And it serves a spiritual purpose.

it’s not fiction… its the story of my life…

and that good ending has NOT happened… as you indicate it rarely does… Good things have happened as a result of the bad… but… well, not on that scale… hmm… Wait a minute… What am i saying?? I found the Church… and there is no greater good than that…

 

[Edmundus1581]

I have to say Jesus has done a great job on me, tho… but being human, i don’t always… SEE much less FACE certain painful things and you cna’t fix a problem you don’t even acknowledge is there… which is one reason I like to spend time at the Blessed Sacrament… When i am There, Jesus shows me things i don’t always “want” to face…When i am There i can face things… anything, because He is There with me… things don’t affect me the same way There as elsewhere…

St Dymphna, Ora pro nobis

 

[distracted]

St Dymphna, Ora pro nobis

i know a little about her… i think she is the saint for those of us who are… uh… a little nutty…

Ora pro nobis

i dont speak Latin…

Ora means pray, doesn’t it?

did she spend a lot of time @ the Blessed Sacrament??

 

[Edmundus1581]

St Dymphna fought off abuse by her father, and was martyred by him.

Ora pro nobis = pray for us



~ Edmundus