Former Catholics - Mary worship

[Cube2]

Cube, your hanging around this CAF site why?

Allow me to explain each of your correctly identified actions.

Actually there is NO NEED to as “Worship” is reserved to God alone.ALL prayers end with God.
This IS reverence and honor, and if praying; intercession. NEVER “worship”
Again Reverence, Honor, and respect and Intercession; NOT “worship”.
Bowing is a sigh of REVERENCE, NOT “worship” and the sign of the Cross is a connecting Mary and or the saint WITH Christ Action of Dying for us. Intercession.

The biggest QUESTION is what is worship as implied from its original Hebrew meaning.
I’ll use the OT reference and Jesus references, and other religion’s way of worship
In the OT, Moses
Exod 32:8: They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them: they have made them a molten calf, and have worshipped it,…
Exod 34:8: And Moses made haste, and bowed his head toward the earth, and worshipped…

The Israelites danced before the golden calf and and made burnt offerings which were termed as worshiping.
Moses bowed to God as a sign of worship.

In the NT:
Matt 2:11: And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshiped him:
Luke 4:6: And the devil said unto him …Luke 4:7: If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine.

The wise men worshiped baby Jesus. We are told ‘they fell down, and worshiped him’.
The falling down may be either kneeling, or bowing to the ground, or lying down on the ground. We may not be sure of the traditions of their culture in regards to worship.

Jesus met face-to-face with the Devil who tempted Him to worship the devil. Since they were together, it would not have meant a prayer or a sacrifice; maybe what the Devil meant was Jesus to bow to him or kneel before him, and possibly utter some words of honoring the devil.

The Muslims worship by kneeling and bowing their heads to the ground. They also chant, “God is Great”
The Hindus burn incense to their many gods as worship to them.
Other religions ‘worship’ by appeasing their gods through an action eg pouring a consecrated liquid to the ground.

From my wide research, worship is anything done in honor or praise of a supreme being. Whether its singing, dancing, burning incense, bowing, kneeling etc, they all amount to WORSHIP.

Perhaps my friend you were never right instructed. ALOT of that going around now.

Also because you may not have been rightly trained, Catholics Pray to [BUT THROUGH"] is a far more accurate term for the following reasons.

Its not about being instructed right, its about the revelation of who Christ is. When Apostle Paul knew who Christ was, nothing could stop him, not even death.
By the way, when you research on the development of the Catholic Church over the ages, you’ll realize that much of what we are debating about were introduced gradually into the church. Much of what is taught is not original.

From the link: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veneration_of_Mary_in_Roman_Catholicism
After the edict of Milan in the 4th century, Christian were permitted to worship openly and the veneration of Mary became public…Saint Ambrose, who lived in Rome before going to Milan as its bishop, venerated Mary as an example of Christian life, and is credited with starting a Marian cult of virginity in the 4th century.
From the same link, you may read about the growth of the Marian Culture.

Because Mary and the Saints are CONFIRMED to be in heaven [the norm is at least One Miracle independently confirmed so GOD HAS THE FINAL SAY IN IT; the saints, Saints, the Souls in Purgatory [HEAVEN assured but detained to be made perfect. Mt. 5:48 AND all Souls united through the Catholic Church on EARTH, make up the “Communion of saints”. In a sense we are all like family. And like a family should do; we can AID one another.
**
So the Saints and Mary take our prayers and the ADD there own to them, thus increasing there merit and personally present for US to God personally.

Patrick

About the usage of the word saints in the bible and by Catholics is different.
Examples:
Colos 1:2: To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse
Philip1:1: Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:
Ephes1:1: Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus
These shows that the word saints refers to people who were literally alive and were to read the letters.

Because Mary and the Saints are CONFIRMED to be in heaven
Prove this from the bible or the sacred traditions.
Jesus and the Apostles teaching is that there will be a day of resurrection.
Matt:22:30: (Jesus teaching) For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
1Thes 4:16: (Apostles teaching) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

 

[rcwitness]

The point is only a small section of scripture is read during mass. When you attend mass, you get many verses in bits because there is the 1st reading, the Psalms & the Gospel. At the end of a period, eg a month, you have many small bits of scripture.
For one to gain full benefit of the Word, it would be good to read for himself/herself and understand more. This is what I meant.
It was not a common practice, and its not a common practice even today.

On the other point, its not about believing in Jesus, its about knowing Jesus and having a strong relationship with him.

For one to get full benefit of the Word, we must accept the Gospel message as Divine Truth for our Salvation.

I can believe to a certain degree that individuals in your Catholic upbringing have not embraced the Gospel as they should have, causing a lack of love for Jesus. However, you are intent on pitting the Universal Church and her Teachings against Scripture and the personal study of it. That is just wrong. You have been caught up in ambitious private interpretation, which can twist some things to fit your personal desires.

These ‘cafeteria’ Catholics, like the ones you seem to have been raised in, cause the Church so many problems! There is no righteous prayer from them for the holiness of their leaders! There is a huge misconception that priests are given more holiness and we can just use them when we want and they deliver God to us without any brotherly support to them from us. This leads to their isolation from the faithfull and are put to more tests and temptations. Their sheep are scattered by wolves and do not give what they have received. They, in turn, are not lifted up and encouraged in the faith. Even Paul gave praise to those who lifted his spirit.

Pray for your priests, have a personal relationship with them and all who are on staff of your local parish. If you think you are wise and have greater faith than these, you will be the servant of them all! You cannot have a personal relationship with Jesus and divorce His Church.

Mary was not a Teacher in the sense of preaching and interpreting Scripture. We have no sermons from her. She left us no writtings. We only have the testimony from the Church that she believed what was to be fullfilled in her Son, she gave praise to Him and magnified the Lord, she compelled others to do what He commands, she trusted He would provide even when pregnant and travelling the country side with no place to give birth, she stayed by His ministry always keeping everything in her heart, her heart was pierced by the pain which sin caused her Son by opening her heart to His love, she prayed with and for the Church after her Son went to Our Father. She gave no resistance to Jesus Christ, but ministered to Him for the sake of His Mission.

 

[Dorothy]

The point is only a small section of scripture is read during mass. When you attend mass, you get many verses in bits because there is the 1st reading, the Psalms & the Gospel. At the end of a period, eg a month, you have many small bits of scripture.
For one to gain full benefit of the Word, it would be good to read for himself/herself and understand more. This is what I meant.
It was not a common practice, and its not a common practice even today.

On the other point, its not about believing in Jesus, its about knowing Jesus and having a strong relationship with him.

Cube,

With regard to bible studies…thanks to the grace of God and the challenges re: bible study presented by Protestants…we have MANY bible studies in our churches, and it is spreading to other Catholic churches. Perhaps in some places it isn’t that strong yet …but it definitely is growing.

So, please do not perpetuate the myth that “It was not a common practice, and its not a common practice even today.”

Peace,

Dorothy

 

[rcwitness]

Its not about being instructed right, its about the revelation of who Christ is. When Apostle Paul knew who Christ was, nothing could stop him, not even death.

Yea, Paul was knocked to the ground as Jesus, Whom had been crucified, spoke to him in an audible voice and carried up to the 3rd heaven and blinded him until he was led to the Chirch in order to be washed of his sins in Baptism and appointed men lay their hands on him so he could regain his sight and receive the Holy Spirit!!!

Are you suggesting you have been revealed Divine Truth as the Apostle has? Or do you need instruction from the Apostles? We are not all Apostles.

 

[PJM]

=rcwitness;12077414]What I believe to be the ‘Hidden Manna’ of the Catholic Devotion to Mary is NOT that we need her to present us to Jesus because we are unworthy. That is the man Jesus Christ.

The Church has a devotion to the heart of Mary, which was given the fullness of grace through the merit of her Son Jesus. We believe the Church, through its apostolic ministry, speaks on behalf of Christ, and did so when declaring the Truth that Mary remained ever faithfull in the grace she was given. She was holy in a unique way fitting for being offered to all Christians, because she believed what was told to her about the Saviour, and thus that same Saviour commited her motherhood to the Apostle at the end of His earthly life, and the beginning of the life His Mystical Body. and she willingly gave her heart to Jesus and His sacrifice to all who might believe on Him, as the prophet spoke, “And a sword shall pierce your heart”!

This sword pierced her heart because she opened it up to the love of Jesus, which is the mark of her participation in the portion of ministry she was given.

Now, my recourse in Mary is the same recourse I have to all those who accept and suffer their cross against sin, for the sake of Christ. When I pray for her recourse I am acknowledging my betrayal to my mother also. And likewise, when I go to Reconciliation, I acknowledge my sin against His Mystical Body, the Church. This is the profound union we have to one another and one another all in Him. This is how He could say to Saul, “Saul, why do you percecute me?” and “Whoever does these to the least of my brethren, he does it to Me.” Therefore, also we recognize our annointed leaders to be ‘in the Person of Christ’ just as Paul Taught.

Jesus acknowledged this depth of brotherhood all through Scripture. James Teaches about the prayers of a righteous person having the power to cover many sins. You tell me how he can Teach this??? Why does one need to confess their sins to those in good standing???

James is recognizing the recourse we have in our brotherhood!

Or answer me this, Did not Paul have recourse to God through Stephen’s prayer???

This recourse I see as wisdom in Christ is based on the bond and oneness Catholic Teaching recognizes through faithfull Communion in His Eucharist.

Very nicely done, thank you,

Patrick

 

[PJM]

[QUOT]=Bernard Lyons;12077179]Deuteronomy 6:15 ‘(For the LORD thy God is a jealous God among you)’

Hi ,rcwitness,
As a former believer of Mary as mediatrix,I would now claim no such link is ever seen or shown to be needful :according to the written word that is.
As the writer to the Hebrews States,‘Having therefore, brethren,boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus’(Hebrews 10:19)
If Then ,I was seeking ,as you say ‘recourse to Jesus’ by or in my own person,I no doubt would be in (desperate)need of another advocate to speak on my behalf.
But what I now believe to be the (my) case is, that ,if my passport 'to enter into the holiest ’ is through another,and that by his ‘blood’ then for me ,not to believe in this access, is therefore for me also to deny the efficacy of and the sacrifice involved in the ‘blood’ that was shed.

On my part also ,looking back on my time as a catholic,I would now claim that there seems to me to be a suggestion ,if we need the mother of Jesus to speak on ones behalf,that Jesus himself, is unwilling to give to those who believe his blood was shed for them,the fruits of that which his blood secured for them.But somehow another entrance( into his affections) is needful.would you agree?

I know it is a very sensitive subject for one who,I know,is trying to uphold or magnify a godly women,but can Catholics see how that we who believe ‘everything is ours’ by the blood of the lamb, it would be disrespectful and unbelieving to not believe that it is he who is said 'to be touched with the feelings of our infirmities ’ and go directly to him in person by ‘his blood’?
When her son ascended did not this same Mary, do exactly that?
Then why not now?

My friend,

Your lack of RIGHT understanding is amazing

Catholics don’t in any absolute manner NEED Mary! She is like winning powerball, a GIFT from God.

Christ “Ascended WHILE Mary was ASSUMED”; CHRIST ON HIS OWN POWER, MARY ON CHRIST POWER.

I can see why you left; you don’t know what you left and are missing

I’ll pray for you,
Patrick

 

[PJM]

=adf417;12076211]And I’ve been trying to make the correlation of those who consider worship of Mary and the lack of real presence in the Eucharist as a direct factor. It seems to me the view of those who think we Catholics worship Mary stem from the lack of our understanding of worship in the Eucharist which stems from the real presence.

I really believe if someone understood the real presence and how you can worship Jesus beyond any other means in this manner of the Eucharist, “our source and summit”, their view of Mary worship, among other wrong views, automatically diminishes.

Peace!!!

Might I suggest that you be careful in saying that we DO WORSHIP Mary, we don’t! We honor, reverence, respect BUT NOT worship her in the sense of the accusations. “Worship is for GOD alone”

God Bless you,
Patrick

 

[adf417]

I know it is a very sensitive subject for one who,I know,is trying to uphold or magnify a godly women,but can Catholics see how that we who believe ‘everything is ours’ by the blood of the lamb, it would be disrespectful and unbelieving to not believe that it is he who is said 'to be touched with the feelings of our infirmities ’ and go directly to him in person by ‘his blood’?
When her son ascended did not this same Mary, do exactly that?
Then why not now?

Not sure why you would think this is a sensitive subject. It would only be sensitive IF Catholics held Mary in higher standing than Jesus. This is certainly not the case. :nope: If it seem that way to you, then I suggest you allow yourself to better understand the Catholic faith.

Peace!!!

 

[adf417]

Might I suggest that you be careful in saying that we DO WORSHIP Mary, we don’t! We honor, reverence, respect BUT NOT worship her in the sense of the accusations. “Worship is for GOD alone”

God Bless you,
Patrick

Not sure where I said or alluded to “we Catholics worship Mary”. Please point that out to me and know it is not at all what was meant.

Peace!!!

 

[PeopleB4Things]

Are there any former Catholics here that can say you did worship Mary when you were Catholic? If not what do you say to those who believe you did?

Peace!!!

What we are supposed to do as Catholics is to pray to the saints for intercessions on our behalves. There is only one God and the saints ain’t him.

That being said, I have ALWAYS witnessed throughout my almost 50 years in the church Catholics treating Mary as a minor deity. We just can’t seem to help ourselves.

 

[rcwitness]

What we are supposed to do as Catholics is to pray to the saints for intercessions on our behalves. There is only one God and the saints ain’t him.

That being said, I have ALWAYS witnessed throughout my almost 50 years in the church Catholics treating Mary as a minor deity. We just can’t seem to help ourselves.

This Catholic certainly can!

 

[Dorothy]

This Catholic certainly can!

Me too! Our Blessed Mother knows she is a creature like us, though highly privileged. She desires to share what has been given to her with us

 

[Bernard_Lyons]

Me too! Our Blessed Mother knows she is a creature like us, though highly privileged. She desires to share what has been given to her with us

Hi Dorothy,Your first sentence immediately brought to my remembrance that verse in Romans 8:3, ‘For what the law could not do,in that it was weak through the flesh ,God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh’
Mary,you say ’ is a creature like us’
The Son ( of God) ,says Paul ,was sent in our likeness ,‘the likeness of sinful flesh’

As Catholic teaching not only has the wife of Joseph ‘ever virgin’;but also teaches Mary was ever sinless ,does this not infringe upon ,and take away from the uniqueness of that spotless state peculiar only ,to that one human, since mankind’s fall, in Adam,?
Even he who alone in scripture is called(by Paul) ‘the second man’ and’ the last Adam ’ acclaimed, just before his arrival ,wondrously and singularly as ‘that holy thing’ ?
Is this witness then , of one in’ the likeness of sinful flesh(yet without sin) not apparently, only true, of he who abode in the womb of the virgin?
And not the virgin ,who ,so singularly ,and wonderfully submitted,to having it so?

As a former Roman Catholic I would also suggest that as well as the son of Mary being identified ( in scripture) as the one Mediator between God Man : ‘the man Christ Jesus’ ,the Son of God ,being himself God, needs ( according to scripture) no mediator on his behalf.Therefore he alone appears as ‘the one mediator’.
Does Mary 's intercession ,therefore ,constitute a role of ‘mediator’?
Then I would ask the same here ,why is only one sinless, mediator,mentioned?

 

[rcwitness]

Hi Dorothy,Your first sentence immediately brought to my remembrance that verse in Romans 8:3, ‘For what the law could not do,in that it was weak through the flesh ,God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh’
Mary,you say ’ is a creature like us’
The Son ( of God) ,says Paul ,was sent in our likeness ,‘the likeness of sinful flesh’

As Catholic teaching not only has the wife of Joseph ‘ever virgin’;but also teaches Mary was ever sinless ,does this not infringe upon ,and take away from the uniqueness of that spotless state peculiar only ,to that one human, since mankind’s fall, in Adam,?
Even he who alone in scripture is called(by Paul) ‘the second man’ and’ the last Adam ’ acclaimed, just before his arrival ,wondrously and singularly as ‘that holy thing’ ?
Is this witness then , of one in’ the likeness of sinful flesh(yet without sin) not apparently, only true, of he who abode in the womb of the virgin?
And not the virgin ,who ,so singularly ,and wonderfully submitted,to having it so?

Hopefully, im addressing your concern,…

Mary’s sinlessness does not give her the status of the only Saviour. It shares in His salvation towards others.

She did not bear the lone duty of God. Only Jesus bore this burden alone. All who followed Him were able to do so because He first opened the door.

 

[Bernard_Lyons]

Hopefully, im addressing your concern,…

Mary’s sinlessness does not give her the status of the only Saviour. It shares in His salvation towards others.

She did not bear the lone duty of God. Only Jesus bore this burden alone. All who followed Him were able to do so because He first opened the door.

Hi rcwitness ,
From my point of view,I dont believe sincere Catholics, are intentionally,as I am claiming,(by their ‘veneration’ to Mary, ) intruding into that domain which scripture ,I believe,reserves exclusively to he ,of whom it is said ‘bear the sins of many’.

But in both of those points afore mentioned ,can you understand with such close parallels in these areas ,why I have suggested that those characteristics unique to Christ and his ministry,I would say,have been greatly diminished in the appearance of another sinless mediator; and that ‘in the likeness of sinful flesh’?

With such a delicate and all encompassing subject matter,would you not personally have expected the Holy Spirit to be more explicit ,and by 'leading ’ us ‘into all truth’ , he would ,in the word of truth,have mentioned such a weighty matter?

 

[Dorothy]

Hi Dorothy,Your first sentence immediately brought to my remembrance that verse in Romans 8:3, ‘For what the law could not do,in that it was weak through the flesh ,God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh’
Mary,you say ’ is a creature like us’
The Son ( of God) ,says Paul ,was sent in our likeness ,‘the likeness of sinful flesh’

As Catholic teaching not only has the wife of Joseph ‘ever virgin’;but also teaches Mary was ever sinless ,does this not infringe upon ,and take away from the uniqueness of that spotless state peculiar only ,to that one human, since mankind’s fall, in Adam,?
Even he who alone in scripture is called(by Paul) ‘the second man’ and’ the last Adam ’ acclaimed, just before his arrival ,wondrously and singularly as ‘that holy thing’ ?
Is this witness then , of one in’ the likeness of sinful flesh(yet without sin) not apparently, only true, of he who abode in the womb of the virgin?
And not the virgin ,who ,so singularly ,and wonderfully submitted,to having it so?

As a former Roman Catholic I would also suggest that as well as the son of Mary being identified ( in scripture) as the one Mediator between God Man : ‘the man Christ Jesus’ ,the Son of God ,being himself God, needs ( according to scripture) no mediator on his behalf.Therefore he alone appears as ‘the one mediator’.
Does Mary 's intercession ,therefore ,constitute a role of ‘mediator’?
Then I would ask the same here ,why is only one sinless, mediator,mentioned?

Mary’s sinlessness, and special privileges were given to her by her Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ. In her magnificat she says “He who is mighty has done good things for me.” He certainly has.

Mary also says “My soul magnifies the Lord”… she certainly does that! Everything she has she was given by Jesus, and she maintained it in perfect faith and trust.

Do you pray for others? I believe you do, as part of the Body of Christ. Then you are being a mediator.

 

[Dorothy]

Bernard Lyons,

What Catholics believe to be the divinely appointed Magisterium (teaching authority) of the Church has spoken, and I believe it is the Voice of Christ.

I believe that any reasoning that you put forward to the contrary, can be explained away. Not to you, but to believing Catholics.

I hope that someday you will come to understand that. Insisting that we are wrong isn’t going to change us.

May you be blessed,

Dorothy

 

[KathleenGee]

Looks like the Church teachings on the catechism on how we worship Christ went no where.

 

[Dorothy]

Looks like the Church teachings on the catechism on how we worship Christ went no where.

What you pointed out from the Catechism is an excellent explanation on how we worship. Hopefully it will plant seeds where they need to be sown.

Only the grace of God, when received, can change someone’s mind to see clearly. We can pray, and it can be given to those who want to see.

 

[KathleenGee]

Yes, I agree.

It is sad to read posts that are still clinging to false misconceptions in spite of the truth you share with them about our faith, including our own documents that we adhere to.

No there is no worship of Mary.

The liturgy is the life source of the Catholic faith. It unites heaven and earth. Christ the High Priest ministers to us at the Mass to continue the great event of all time, His Passion, death and Resurrection for the love of us to atone for our sins. Very hard for those in ecclesial communities to understand.

I think those outside the Catholic Church of course love the Lord and are devoted to Him in the Word, but their understanding and free will take them only so far.

We must all desire to grow in truth and understanding.