Former Catholics - Mary worship

[rinnie]

I only am asking how it’s different from when you give praises to God. Or if it’s the same in the way Bhuddists practice their Religion?

What are you talking about they pray to Budda not God, That is their god. Mary is not our God she is the Mother of God.

We ask Mary to pray for us, and with us. What’s the big deal?

 

[rinnie]

But were we not also commanded to love God above all? Every person, thing… anything? I certainly do.

So then you are saying because we imitate Mary because she was sinless and completely faithful to God we love her more then God.

And we ask her to pray for us we love her more then God and put her above God??

Again dronald you make no sense.

To begin with have you ever heard the Hail Mary?

Hail Mary full of grace the LORD IS WITH YOU. PRAY FOR US SINNERS.

Now would not common sense tell you if we ask her to PRAY for us and believe her prayers are powerful that we believe she is GOING to GOD for us??

If we worshiped Mary why would we ask her to go to her Son for us, Who needs him if we feel she is above him??

We indeed love Mary and praise her for what she did, The same way we praise our Children and friends when they do well!

To give honor and praise to someone does not mean WORSHIP by any means.

When you honor someone with your presence at a wedding are you saying you are God now???

Maybe a dictionary of words would help you, Maybe start with venerate!!

 

[rinnie]

When I was a Catholic, and since, I’ve always had trouble with the excessive titles and the statues of Mary dressed as a queen. Mary, Theotokos? I have no problem with that. But there is only one Mediator, Jesus Christ. And Mary, Queen of Heaven? I believe that verges upon pantheism. And even though I once felt obligated to say the rosary, that’s just what it was, an obligation and a rote recitation. I still pray the Lord’s Prayer, but nothing Marian.

Who ever said veneration was a mediator?? So you are saying if you pray for someone you are a mediator Jesus because you pray for someone??

If not please explain how someone praying for you excludes God???

Maybe a dictionary might just be the solution for you also. Look up intercessor and mediator.

 

[Faithdancer]

Understood, but have you ever worshiped Mary?

Peace!!!

I don’t know that I ever crossed that line. However, I do think that some folks, well-intentioned though they are, do cross that line.

 

[Faithdancer]

You aren’t a Catholic now? You can’t really stop you know, you were baptized a Catholic and it’s for life.

When I attended Catholic services, then. I don’t anymore, I attend services at other churches.

Who ever said veneration was a mediator?? So you are saying if you pray for someone you are a mediator Jesus because you pray for someone??

If not please explain how someone praying for you excludes God???

Maybe a dictionary might just be the solution for you also. Look up intercessor and mediator.

“For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;” (1 Timothy 2:5)
By definition, then, neither Mary, the saints in heaven or any living persons can be mediators.

 

[dronald]

So then you are saying because we imitate Mary because she was sinless and completely faithful to God we love her more then God.

And we ask her to pray for us we love her more then God and put her above God??

Again dronald you make no sense.

To begin with have you ever heard the Hail Mary?

Hail Mary full of grace the LORD IS WITH YOU. PRAY FOR US SINNERS.

Now would not common sense tell you if we ask her to PRAY for us and believe her prayers are powerful that we believe she is GOING to GOD for us??

If we worshiped Mary why would we ask her to go to her Son for us, Who needs him if we feel she is above him??

We indeed love Mary and praise her for what she did, The same way we praise our Children and friends when they do well!

To give honor and praise to someone does not mean WORSHIP by any means.

When you honor someone with your presence at a wedding are you saying you are God now???

Maybe a dictionary of words would help you, Maybe start with venerate!!

How does one not make sense by asking questions?

I feel as if Catholics are so used to misunderstandings and anti-Catholic rhetoric that when someone asks questions they are accused of “making no sense.”

Seriously, it’s extremely hard to find out what Catholics believe here because we can’t even ask questions without feeling like we’re stupid for not understanding.

 

[marywarfield]

How does one not make sense by asking questions?

I feel as if Catholics are so used to misunderstandings and anti-Catholic rhetoric that when someone asks questions they are accused of “making no sense.”

Seriously, it’s extremely hard to find out what Catholics believe here because we can’t even ask questions without feeling like we’re stupid for not understanding.

I think what happens is a non catholic shows up
with a preconceived notion that we are idol worshippers
making sacrifices to golden calves. Because the
first question always is: why worship a statue? Which
means the person seriously believes all these priests with
three or more college degrees in chemistry. Biology
Theology. Philosophy, political science mathematics or what
have you are so ignorant of God they are busy worshipping
bits and pieces of plaster of Paris or plastic or wood.
The questioner you see insults from an almost
unconscious arrogance that they are smarter than us
average ignorant Catholic.
And the conversation just continues to deteriorate.
Cause the problem really is:
A. Not our problem
B. it is the questioners problem.

 

[adf417]

I don’t know that I ever crossed that line. However, I do think that some folks, well-intentioned though they are, do cross that line.

You don’t know if you did worship Mary but you do know other people do worship Mary? Is this really what you meant to say?

Peace!!!

 

[marywarfield]

I don’t know that I ever crossed that line. However, I do think that some folks, well-intentioned though they are, do cross that line.

Odds are that if you had ever taken Marian devotion
seriously you’d still be attending Mass.

 

[EIF5A]

I think what happens is a non catholic shows up
with a preconceived notion that we are idol worshippers
making sacrifices to golden calves. Because the
first question always is: why worship a statue? Which
means the person seriously believes all these priests with
three or more college degrees in chemistry. Biology
Theology. Philosophy, political science mathematics or what
have you are so ignorant of God they are busy worshipping
bits and pieces of plaster of Paris or plastic or wood.
The questioner you see insults from an almost
unconscious arrogance that they are smarter than us
average ignorant Catholic.
And the conversation just continues to deteriorate.
Cause the problem really is:
A. Not our problem
B. it is the questioners problem.

Seems a bit exaggerated, no?

No one in this thread is accusing Catholics of worshipping inanimate objects. The reluctance seems to be, “At what point does veneration of Mary become in excess?” or “Is it even possible to venerate Mary in excess?”

Is Mary no longer a humble handmaid of the Lord but now a queen in heaven and earth? Is queenship in title only to give proper veneration to the Mother of God, or does she have power to rule? Is she the conduit for all graces even if Christians do not venerate her?

Is she upset that a third of Christendom has ignored her? Is she understanding that those who were brought up that way don’t know any better?

 

[SyroMalankara]

Seems a bit exaggerated, no?

No one in this thread is accusing Catholics of worshipping inanimate objects. The reluctance seems to be, “At what point does veneration of Mary become in excess?” or “Is it even possible to venerate Mary in excess?”

There was a cult/movement condemned by the early church called Collyridianism. That would be excess.

Is Mary no longer a humble handmaid of the Lord but now a queen in heaven and earth? Is queenship in title only to give proper veneration to the Mother of God, or does she have power to rule? Is she the conduit for all graces even if Christians do not venerate her?

Think Queen Mother, not Queen Elizabeth. Mary’s Queenship is entirely dependent on her Son’s Kingship.

Is she upset that a third of Christendom has ignored her? Is she understanding that those who were brought up that way don’t know any better?

I’m sure she is sad for the sake of those who don’t know any better. What mother wouldn’t be? Christ Himself is probably more upset that His Mother is being ignored - after all, He is her Son. Any good earthly son would be, how much more the Divine Son?

 

[SyroMalankara]

See article below:

COLLYRIDIANISM

                       Patrick Madrid

Dates
350-450

Background to controversy

Most of the early heresies were Trinitarian and Christological in
nature, but Collyridianism stood alone as a heresy that sought to
deify the Blessed Virgin Mary. Little is known about the movement’s
theology. Not even the names of the group’s leaders are mentioned by
writers of the time. This sect’s excessive Marian devotion developed
into the idolatry of Mary worship. This aberration grew out of the
Church’s rightful veneration of Mary as ever-virgin, Mother of God,
and powerful heavenly intercessor, but crossed the line of orthodoxy
when certain Christians began to worship Mary as divine. Details
about the Collyridians are scanty, but one of the few specifics we
know of them is that at their liturgical service bread was offered as
a sacrifice to Mary.

Principal errors

The heresy of the Collyridians was very simple: They worshiped Mary.
This was in direct conflict with the Catholic Church’s condemnation
of idolatry, which had been condemned by God himself: “You shall have
no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself a graven
image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that
is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you
shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the Lord your God am
a jealous God” (Ex. 20:3-5; cf. Deut. 5:7 6:14; 1 Cor. 4:8-6,
10:19-20; Eph. 5:5). This proscription applies not just to statue
worship, but to the worship of anything besides God.

Orthodox response

It is ironic that the most diligent opponent of the Collyridians was
Epiphanius (315- 403), the bishop of Salamis. He was widely renowned
for his learning and holy asceticism and was a close friend of
Jerome, but he was also a rude and querulous man who garnered many
enemies, some of whom were fellow bishops.

Though Epiphanius’s efforts to quash the Collyridians were laudable
and his theological and scriptural reasoning against their idolatry
was sound, he himself was not free from error in the area of honoring
God’s friends. The vehemence of his opposition to the Collyridians’
idolatry was rivaled by his fanatical opposition to icons.

In a description that is reminiscent of certain modern-day
Fundamentalist foes of Catholic Marian doctrines and of venerating
icons and images, patristics scholar Aloys Dirksen, C.P.P.S.,
describes Epiphanius as having a "fiery temperament and unreasonable
impetuosity . . . that made the calm objectivity necessary for
scholarly work impossible for him. His narrow-mindedness is apparent
in the part he played in the Origenist controversy and the violence
with which he attacked the veneration of images.

“He considered this idolatry, and in his testament he anathematized
anyone who would even gaze upon a picture of the Logos-God. His
temperament made him suspicious of heresy everywhere, and he made
capital of even the smallest inaccuracy of statement. It appeared
impossible for him to see any viewpoint but his own. Since he lacked
critical acumen and was a poor, even a tiresome writer, his works
would be of little value if it were not for his many quotations [of
others]. He thus saved much that would otherwise have been lost to
us” (Elementary Patrology [St. Louis: Herder, 1959], 117).

Epiphanius wrote against the Collyridians in his most important
apologetic work, Panarion (Medicine Box [374-377]), a tour-de-force
refutation of over eighty heresies known to him. He refuted the two
extreme and diametrically opposed Marian heresies of his day,
Collyridianism (which overly exalted Mary) and Antidicomarianitism,
an Arabian movement that debased Mary’s status and virtues, to the
point of claiming “that holy Mary had intercourse with a man, that is
to say, Joseph, after the birth of Christ” (Panarion 78:1).

The Collyridians were primarily women who developed a syncretistic
combination of Catholicism and pagan goddess cult customs. After
describing the “awful and blasphemous ceremony,” in which they adorn
a chair or a square throne and spread a linen cloth over it for their
ritual, Epiphanius writes, “Certain women there in Arabia have
introduced this absurd teaching from Thracia: how they offer up a
sacrifice of bread rolls in the name of the ever-Virgin Mary, and all
partake of this bread” ( 78:13). He emphasizes the
difference between Mary and God: “It is not right to honor the saints
beyond their due” (ibid. 78:23); “Now the body of Mary was indeed
holy, but it was not God; the Virgin was indeed a virgin and revered,
but she was not given to us for worship, but she herself worshiped
him who was born in the flesh from her… Honor Mary, but let the
Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit be worshiped, but let no one
worship Mary, . . . even though Mary is most beautiful and holy and
venerable, yet she is not to be worshiped” (ibid. 79:1, 4).

With Epiphanius we can say that anyone who worships Mary or any other
creature is committing idolatry and must be rebuked. We should look
to Scripture, at the case of the angel who rebuked John for his
temptation to idolatry, to see how to admonish modern-day
Collyridians: “At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said
to me, ‘Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your
brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God!’” (Rev.
19:10). No doubt, our Lady herself would say this to any who would
seek to worship her.

Modern parallels

Collyridianism is seen today in various forms. Those “hyper-Marian”
groups and writers who overly exalt Mary and focus on her to the
exclusion (or near exclusion) of Christ are guilty of something
approaching idolatry. Modern feminism is the source of a recycled
Collyridianism that worships a “mother goddess” and seeks to
“re-image” God in female terms.

 

[SyroMalankara]

Modern day heretical Mary cult:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mariavite_Church

 

[EIF5A]

There was a cult/movement condemned by the early church called Collyridianism. That would be excess.

Think Queen Mother, not Queen Elizabeth. Mary’s Queenship is entirely dependent on her Son’s Kingship.

I’m sure she is sad for the sake of those who don’t know any better. What mother wouldn’t be? Christ Himself is probably more upset that His Mother is being ignored - after all, He is her Son. Any good earthly son would be, how much more the Divine Son?

Thank you for the reminder. I want to believe without second thoughts of doubt. But it doesn’t seem to be happening…

 

[EIF5A]

Modern day heretical Mary cult:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mariavite_Church

“In her first vision, she was told to organize the order of the priests-Mariavites. This order was to promote the renewal of the spiritual life of the clergy. The most important purpose was to spread the perpetual adoration of the Most Blessed Sacrament and the cult of the Perpetual Help of the Blessed Virgin Mary.”

So they started off right but then became heretical?

 

[EIF5A]

Modern parallels

Collyridianism is seen today in various forms. Those “hyper-Marian”
groups and writers who overly exalt Mary and focus on her to the
exclusion (or near exclusion) of Christ are guilty of something
approaching idolatry. Modern feminism is the source of a recycled
Collyridianism that worships a “mother goddess” and seeks to
“re-image” God in female terms.

(Quoted from couple posts above.)

That’s the thing…What constitutes “hyper-Marian” and “near exclusion of Christ”? Because I always read the argument that Mary cannot exist without Jesus Christ, so venerating Mary is also adoring Christ because no one can love Mary more than her Son Himself.

 

[SyroMalankara]

The Church will decide, since Christ is infallible and the Church His bride. Be leary of any individual who claims to know better than the Church and contradicts public Divine Revelation, with their so-called “visions”:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Schuckardt
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congregation_of_Mary_Immaculate_Queen

 

[EIF5A]

The Church will decide, since Christ is infallible and the Church His bride. Be leary of any individual who claims to know better than the Church and contradicts public Divine Revelation, with their so-called “visions”:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Schuckardt
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congregation_of_Mary_Immaculate_Queen

It seems they are devoted to the consecration to the Blessed Virgin Mary (as per St. Louis de Montfort.)

So the enemy is using a schismatic group to make legitimate devotion to Mary look suspicious???

 

[marywarfield]

Seems a bit exaggerated, no?

No one in this thread is accusing Catholics of worshipping inanimate objects. The reluctance seems to be, “At what point does veneration of Mary become in excess?” or “Is it even possible to venerate Mary in excess?”

Is Mary no longer a humble handmaid of the Lord but now a queen in heaven and earth? Is queenship in title only to give proper veneration to the Mother of God, or does she have power to rule? Is she the conduit for all graces even if Christians do not venerate her?

Is she upset that a third of Christendom has ignored her? Is she understanding that those who were brought up that way don’t know any better?

Uh no…
Scroll back a few pages in which the difference between
thinking about a mom in a photo is different from thinking
about the frame and glass.

 

[adf417]

COLLYRIDIANISM

I just don’t understand how the above bolded statement is not viewed by non-Catholics as important for understanding either today’s Marian devotion and/or the real presence in the Eucharist for a higher form of worship than prayer, or even veneration. We do not eat her body or drink her blood.