E
EIF5A
Guest
But venerating is not “thinking”.
But I’ll take your analogy for the time being.
At what point does one think about a mother that goes beyond what she is or can do?
- Status
But I’ll take your analogy for the time being.
At what point does one think about a mother that goes beyond what she is or can do?
E
EIF5A
Guest
It’s the perceived stepping outside the bounds of veneration and ascribing to Mary what is seen as God’s role alone. It’s not direct worship of Mary, per se.I just don’t understand how the above bolded statement is not viewed by non-Catholics as important for understanding either today’s Marian devotion and/or the real presence in the Eucharist for a higher form of worship than prayer, or even veneration. We do not eat her body or drink her blood.
Things like “Mediatrix of All Graces” and “total consecration to Mary” are two things that raise eyebrows…Or how in the Fatima apparition, only Mary can bring peace. Granted, I think the idea is that Mary obtains graces from Jesus…but without further clarification, it gets confusing.
It’s been said praying the Rosary is praying with Mary to God…but it seems you’re actually praying to Mary. People say you offer her roses with every Hail Mary.
So which is it…?
F
Faithdancer
Guest
When one starts thinking of Mary as if she is a mediator or has any special power over and above any other saint. Mary did a great thing in her fiat and her devotion to Christ. All Christians should be eternally grateful to her- that’s hardly “ignoring” her. But I pray directly to God. 'Nuff said.
M
marywarfield
Guest
I pray TO Mary. Works for me.
E
EIF5A
Guest
Well, I actually do think she has special intercessory powers above any other saint…
She gave birth to Jesus, the second Person of the Trinity. Upon Incarnation, His Divinity and Humanity were united and are inseparable. True, the Bible does not go into details about the level of her uniqueness, but just being the Mother of God alone should give pause…
Her special relation to the Trinity and the grace she has are not through her own power, but by the divine will of God.
I imagine Mary wants us to ask her because being united to the will of God, she would want to participate in the salvation of souls and obtaining special graces for our spiritual and material lives. I also imagine her intercession would be more fruitful than anyone else’s. (I think. Someone correct me if I’m wrong.)
K
KathleenGee
Guest
Today on EWTN, they presented a piece composed by St. Ambrose, who was born in the latter 300’s, express what Mary was like. He was drawing on that from tradition, that passed down by earlier generations, who prior to them, from those who even saw Mary.
Treatise on Virgins by St. Ambrose is a good start.
If people can envision Mary as the living, human tabernacle who gave Our Lord His perfect flesh and blood, it is a beginning to come to see her eventually as All Pure Virgin.
We live in such a sex obsessed culture. Woman as object, as common, nothing else.
Mary is the New Eve.
Treatise on Virgins by St. Ambrose is a good start.
If people can envision Mary as the living, human tabernacle who gave Our Lord His perfect flesh and blood, it is a beginning to come to see her eventually as All Pure Virgin.
We live in such a sex obsessed culture. Woman as object, as common, nothing else.
Mary is the New Eve.
B
Brandall
Guest
I’m not in full communion with the Bishop of Rome but I will be in a bit less than 48 hours. Intellectually, I understand the prayers to saints but it isn’t something that I have any personal spiritual understanding. Having said that, for the most part, I have no problems with anyone that is more spiritually mature in those areas.
In the last couple of pages, I’ve seen others say that, “Jesus is the only mediator” and “I pray directly to God”. Dronald made one of those comments and Faithdancer the other. Really in truly, there is nothing wrong with that but, really, is there anything you could do to enhance your own petitions to God?
I’ve noticed Dronald has mentioned having a fiance. My question for you is, if she called tomorrow and said that her car wasn’t running well and would you pray for her, would you tell her there is only one mediator? Should you refuse praying for your fiance and just insist she take it to Jesus? Faithdancer, if someone important to you asked you to pray, would you tell them to pray directly to God or would you feel compelled to petition God on their behalf?
Remembering our discussion on the Communion of Saints in RCIA, the last sentence of James 5:16 comes to mind. The prayer of the righteous is powerful and effective. Even in my Baptist background, we all were fairly certain that Mary and all of the apostles were in heaven and therefore righteous. Catholics believe that those in heaven can hear them and pray to God for them. If those Catholics are wrong, and I don’t personally believe they are, then the worst thing they are doing is asking those that can’t hear them request something. Basically, the net loss is only time. If those saints can’t hear them or pray for them, then that prayer can only be considered a waste of time. I can think of several worse ways that I’ve wasted time in my life. Wasting time in this way is probably not sinful.
Some of you have already documented groups in history and current day that have “crossed the line” from veneration into worship. Mary is not a god or worthy of worship. It was made very clear to us, in RCIA, that she, nor any of the other saints are worthy of worship. Only the persons of the Trinity are worthy of worship. That is the position of the Catholic Church. Do I think that perhaps some among the faithful have “crossed the line” and their veneration has become worship? Yeah, I think so but I believe that it is relatively rare and may be mostly due to ignorance. It definitely goes against what the Church teaches. If you don’t believe me about what the Church teaches, she, the Church, is not hiding this information. It is all available on the web. Feel free to research and prove me wrong.
Yes, yes, yes, we are supposed to love God more than anyone or anything else. In honesty, that is not as easy as it sounds, at least to this child of God. Growing up in the Baptist Church, if this question was asked, and it was nearly every year, we all knew when asked what we loved the most, we were supposed to say God. It went like this, "Well, I know I love God the most, then I love my parents and grandparents, then my best friend Robert, and I love the bike I’m getting for Christmas and I love my sister a bit. btw, another question asked yearly was, if your house was on fire, and you only had time to grab one thing, what would it be? The correct answer was, “I would grab my Holy Bible.”
All my life, I’ve struggled with loving God more. Though my mastery of that is better now than it was in the past, it is still a struggle. Even now, there are times when I honestly love my wife and children more. While growing up, I rarely loved God the most. Every time in my life that I’ve committed a sin, I loved me more than I loved God. If I ever sin again, and chances are good I will, I will not be loving God with all my heart, all my soul, all my strength and all my mind. I will be putting myself or something else ahead of God. No, I shouldn’t but that is what I do.
Do I love Mary? I guess so. I’m still rather new to all this and I certainly appreciate what she has done and I appreciate that in the future, she may be willing to ask her son to help me. I’ve met some spiritually strong and holy people that take great comfort in communing with her and that love her deeply. It would be foolish to not investigate it further in my opinion if for no other reason, because I respect these people that God has provided as examples in my life.
In the Baptist community where I was raised, we really didn’t spend time talking about other faith practices. I had heard a bit about some of the misconceptions of the Catholic Church but it wasn’t discussed much. Once I really delved into these misconceptions, it was easy to see, they simply were that, misconceptions.
If I don’t get back by here before Easter, please have a great one. If you’re in the north Atlanta area, drop by Saint Brigid in Johns Creek for the Easter Vigil on Saturday night and see my confirmation.
In the last couple of pages, I’ve seen others say that, “Jesus is the only mediator” and “I pray directly to God”. Dronald made one of those comments and Faithdancer the other. Really in truly, there is nothing wrong with that but, really, is there anything you could do to enhance your own petitions to God?
I’ve noticed Dronald has mentioned having a fiance. My question for you is, if she called tomorrow and said that her car wasn’t running well and would you pray for her, would you tell her there is only one mediator? Should you refuse praying for your fiance and just insist she take it to Jesus? Faithdancer, if someone important to you asked you to pray, would you tell them to pray directly to God or would you feel compelled to petition God on their behalf?
Remembering our discussion on the Communion of Saints in RCIA, the last sentence of James 5:16 comes to mind. The prayer of the righteous is powerful and effective. Even in my Baptist background, we all were fairly certain that Mary and all of the apostles were in heaven and therefore righteous. Catholics believe that those in heaven can hear them and pray to God for them. If those Catholics are wrong, and I don’t personally believe they are, then the worst thing they are doing is asking those that can’t hear them request something. Basically, the net loss is only time. If those saints can’t hear them or pray for them, then that prayer can only be considered a waste of time. I can think of several worse ways that I’ve wasted time in my life. Wasting time in this way is probably not sinful.
Some of you have already documented groups in history and current day that have “crossed the line” from veneration into worship. Mary is not a god or worthy of worship. It was made very clear to us, in RCIA, that she, nor any of the other saints are worthy of worship. Only the persons of the Trinity are worthy of worship. That is the position of the Catholic Church. Do I think that perhaps some among the faithful have “crossed the line” and their veneration has become worship? Yeah, I think so but I believe that it is relatively rare and may be mostly due to ignorance. It definitely goes against what the Church teaches. If you don’t believe me about what the Church teaches, she, the Church, is not hiding this information. It is all available on the web. Feel free to research and prove me wrong.
Yes, yes, yes, we are supposed to love God more than anyone or anything else. In honesty, that is not as easy as it sounds, at least to this child of God. Growing up in the Baptist Church, if this question was asked, and it was nearly every year, we all knew when asked what we loved the most, we were supposed to say God. It went like this, "Well, I know I love God the most, then I love my parents and grandparents, then my best friend Robert, and I love the bike I’m getting for Christmas and I love my sister a bit. btw, another question asked yearly was, if your house was on fire, and you only had time to grab one thing, what would it be? The correct answer was, “I would grab my Holy Bible.”
All my life, I’ve struggled with loving God more. Though my mastery of that is better now than it was in the past, it is still a struggle. Even now, there are times when I honestly love my wife and children more. While growing up, I rarely loved God the most. Every time in my life that I’ve committed a sin, I loved me more than I loved God. If I ever sin again, and chances are good I will, I will not be loving God with all my heart, all my soul, all my strength and all my mind. I will be putting myself or something else ahead of God. No, I shouldn’t but that is what I do.
Do I love Mary? I guess so. I’m still rather new to all this and I certainly appreciate what she has done and I appreciate that in the future, she may be willing to ask her son to help me. I’ve met some spiritually strong and holy people that take great comfort in communing with her and that love her deeply. It would be foolish to not investigate it further in my opinion if for no other reason, because I respect these people that God has provided as examples in my life.
In the Baptist community where I was raised, we really didn’t spend time talking about other faith practices. I had heard a bit about some of the misconceptions of the Catholic Church but it wasn’t discussed much. Once I really delved into these misconceptions, it was easy to see, they simply were that, misconceptions.
If I don’t get back by here before Easter, please have a great one. If you’re in the north Atlanta area, drop by Saint Brigid in Johns Creek for the Easter Vigil on Saturday night and see my confirmation.
F
Faithdancer
Guest
The main purpose of prayer is to give God thanks and praise. It is only secondarily to ask for stuff, i.e. to petition Him. And if God is omniscient- and I believe that He is, by definition- then He knows my petititions before I even ask them. How could the intercession of anyone else possibly affect the outcome, which is already determined according to God’s plan? Does anyone propose that God is indecisive and can be influenced, or changes His mind based on how many people are asking for something? Zeus, maybe, but not the God of the Bible.
That being said, if it gives y’all comfort to pray to Mary and to give her titles (which based on her total humility, I suggest that she doesn’t need or want)- y’all go right ahead!
That being said, if it gives y’all comfort to pray to Mary and to give her titles (which based on her total humility, I suggest that she doesn’t need or want)- y’all go right ahead!
M
marywarfield
Guest
Lovely post. Thank you and welcome to the family!
F
Faithdancer
Guest
Here is one further thought on the efficacy of prayer, in general. The one time in my recent memory when God answered my prayer and gave me what I needed- I didn’t ask God for what I needed! I gave Him thanks and praise, and told Him that I know that He knows what I need and I, being powerless, must leave it up to Him. Well, He gave me exactly what I needed, in a crisis situation.
I believe that prayer is supremely important because it is the ultimate expression of our faith, not because God can be influenced or swayed from His Providence. Every time I pray I strengthen my faith but I’m not saved because I pray- I pray because I’m saved. Since God, in the Person of His Son Jesus Christ, saved me, that is who I pray to, and none other.
I believe that prayer is supremely important because it is the ultimate expression of our faith, not because God can be influenced or swayed from His Providence. Every time I pray I strengthen my faith but I’m not saved because I pray- I pray because I’m saved. Since God, in the Person of His Son Jesus Christ, saved me, that is who I pray to, and none other.
A
Arizona_Samson
Guest
I offer a resounding amen! to this very well stated biblical view. Thank you for sharing.
D
Darryl_B
Guest
Special power? You must be confusing Christianity with Star Wars Jedi. If instead you were to say special favour and grace. When you say “any other saint” are you self-referencing?
D
Dorothy
Guest
Brandall,
Thank you for your post, and welcome home to the Church!
Thank you for your post, and welcome home to the Church!
K
KathleenGee
Guest
Brandall,
Likewise with Dorothy, I appreciate your comments.
I don’t have the time much any more to post on CAF, but come back every so often.
When I see how profoundly diverse and immense the resources of our Catholic faith is in bringing us closer into the Lord, the more sectarian preachers come across as using a few aspects of our faith to prove we are not Christian. Mary and pope worshippers, unbiblical, praying to saints are examples. It is amazing how many other Christians are taken in by such misconceptions to the degree that they are so afraid to even inquire about our Catholic faith.
So we are thankful you are here and appreciate your comments, and I remember yours as well.
The first vocation of a Catholic is the vocation of holiness – by entering into the life of the Holy Trinity. The second vocation is to serve our neighbors who are in need, that comes from the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Likewise with Dorothy, I appreciate your comments.
I don’t have the time much any more to post on CAF, but come back every so often.
When I see how profoundly diverse and immense the resources of our Catholic faith is in bringing us closer into the Lord, the more sectarian preachers come across as using a few aspects of our faith to prove we are not Christian. Mary and pope worshippers, unbiblical, praying to saints are examples. It is amazing how many other Christians are taken in by such misconceptions to the degree that they are so afraid to even inquire about our Catholic faith.
So we are thankful you are here and appreciate your comments, and I remember yours as well.
The first vocation of a Catholic is the vocation of holiness – by entering into the life of the Holy Trinity. The second vocation is to serve our neighbors who are in need, that comes from the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
F
Faithdancer
Guest
Cool! Those are paramount vocations for Christians of other denominations too- perhaps we’re not so far apart after all!
R
rcwitness
Guest
I can understand this view. I do share it, in a way! However, where I depart with you, is I believe we certainly canNOT worship (I think ‘latria’ is the precise term here) Mary while devoting ourselves to the Teachings and worship of the Catholic Church.
Again, I agree with your faith in what you say! But The Church recognizes in the Teachings of Jesus, that He Himself sends us out to others as ambassadors on His behalf. In this way, we are cooperators of His work. The Cat Church is overwhelmingly devoted to the Truth of Christ’s Mediation of all men to the Father. But our faith also recognizes the union the saints are brought into when walking in full communion with Him! St James acknowledges the power of intercessory prayer. When we read James’ Teaching about the prayers of a righteous person, we can see two aspects of it. One is to seek God in His holy people, and the other is to serve God by praying for those with struggles and shortcomings in their faith.
The Church (both formal, binding, apostolic Teaching AND individuals who will receive it) recognizes Mary’s perfected faith. She is already (via her assumption to her heavenly place, which is very different from Christ’s ascention) in the perfected state of the union of body and soul to Our Father, Son, Holy Spirit which we who obey His commandments will be brought into.
I believe you are correct in much. We must have a direct prayer to God. He is the Father of all. He has provided all grace and means of our salvation and spiritual nourishment for producing fruit of life. He is continually giving us justifying grace through the eternal merit of Jesus Christ and His obedience to the will of the Father of all life!The main purpose of prayer is to give God thanks and praise. It is only secondarily to ask for stuff, i.e. to petition Him. And if God is omniscient- and I believe that He is, by definition- then He knows my petititions before I even ask them. How could the intercession of anyone else possibly affect the outcome, which is already determined according to God’s plan? Does anyone propose that God is indecisive and can be influenced, or changes His mind based on how many people are asking for something? Zeus, maybe, but not the God of the Bible.
That being said, if it gives y’all comfort to pray to Mary and to give her titles (which based on her total humility, I suggest that she doesn’t need or want)- y’all go right ahead!
But Jesus is not alone! He became the Head of a body who is both a bride and His own flesh and blood, through faith and love working in obedience. We do recognize roles and different spiritual graces and gifts among His many members. I agree with you in many ways, especially in a sense that we should not participate in a prayer that we do not understand. For this reason, I do not have a prayer devotion through Mary, or any other saint which I do not understand and am able to defend. I do ask her, and occationally other saints who have inspired me in the faith, for their prayers on my behalf! This does not mean I excuse myself from prayer and adoration to God (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) alone!!! On the contrary, I am compelled all the more to appreciate the same faith I share with Our Queen and all her offspring throughout the ages. To me, her Queenship means a familial bond, which is based solely on each of our relationship we have in Christ Jesus Himself.
Peace be with your spirit,
Michael
R
rcwitness
Guest
Mary was given a unique grace. This grace has a particular jurisdiction to the whole mystical body of Jesus. We should not place her outside this body, or in a high priestly position in His body. Her place is not a sacramental one, but a familial one based on who God fashioned her to be. Her faith is most ‘transparent’ of the spirit of her creator. This is the veneration we should have in her… that in our love of a Godly faith, we pursue the perfected faith which His mother attained. She has such a complete reception of her son, that she diminished herself as to allow her Lord to be glorified through her.
The danger that can exist in a gross exageration of who Mary is in relation to us, is making her a high priestess, instead of a unique Mother in the faith. The wedding at Cana is the most beautifull expression of her role in the perpetual life of Jesus Christ.
Peace
Michael
The danger that can exist in a gross exageration of who Mary is in relation to us, is making her a high priestess, instead of a unique Mother in the faith. The wedding at Cana is the most beautifull expression of her role in the perpetual life of Jesus Christ.
Peace
Michael
K
KathleenGee
Guest
Faithdancer,
As a Catholic in the Church what I feel bad about is how much life of Christ there is in the Church and the witness of the communion of saints, and how so many Protestants are missing out on a greater and deeper inheritance of the Lord.
You look at some preachers and they give witness really to the Old Testament. American preacher men, I mean the ones whose two legs partially stand on Sola Scriptura and their sect’s view of Christ and the other leg standing on anti-Catholicism, – are not really teaching Christ!!!
You will not find the fullness of Christ in sects. You will not find complete teachings on Christ in Protestantism. You will find no witness of Christ’s resurrection --the greatest event in the history of mankind - in Protestantism.
Christ is the means through which God created the carnate universe. But Jesus did not become carnate man Himself, only until there was Mary.
Only through Mary’s yes in her free will, did Our Lord come into this world.
Without Mary, we would not have Jesus. And what made Mary special, blessed above other women? Protestants cannot answer that.
And because Protestantism cannot give you the complete understanding of Christ, likewise it cannot give you the depth of living faith, of the mystery of experiencing the sacred presence of Christ among us found present in the tabernacles around the world.
The Eucharist is the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Christ Himself that is separate and beyond all human beings and all of creation.
Christ sacrificed Himself first at the Last Supper when He said before the outward form of bread and wine that ‘This is My Body, This is My Blood’.
The altar of animal sacrifice in God appointed and defined worship He decreed in Exodus was now re-defined, transformed into the altar of the banquet table…and Our Lord talks of heaven as many mansions of the banquet table.
And it is the flesh and blood of Mary that was given to Christ to make Him true man.
What made Mary’s flesh and blood the one chosen to be given that to Christ and why? Protestantism cannot answer.
Yes, the Resurrection of Christ is the greatest event in history where time, matter, space, and death had no more power over us. So…after the Book of Revelation…what happened??
Where is testimony to the lives of those who have lived out in Christ for 2000 years that enhanced our understanding of Christ?
The witness of Christ’s resurrection is found in the documented times of Christianity and the lives in the saints found in the Church.
We are being called to communion all the time. Christ instituted only one Church, no more. We are not people of the book but people in relationship with Logos, the Living Word of God…Made Flesh…through Mary, and lived out and witnessed in Word and Sacraments in the lives of the saints and ordinary Catholics.
Please pray to the Lord to open yourself more to the Truth.
Jesus said to Pilate He is truth and He was crucified for revealing Truth.
Truth comes us never in sects or divisions, but in the gathering of people in communion.
The Holy Trinity is alone the author of communion.
Check out www.calledtocommunion.com. It is a work of former Protestants who have found the full truth of Christ in the Church. They give reasons and testimonies for their conversions.
As a Catholic in the Church what I feel bad about is how much life of Christ there is in the Church and the witness of the communion of saints, and how so many Protestants are missing out on a greater and deeper inheritance of the Lord.
You look at some preachers and they give witness really to the Old Testament. American preacher men, I mean the ones whose two legs partially stand on Sola Scriptura and their sect’s view of Christ and the other leg standing on anti-Catholicism, – are not really teaching Christ!!!
You will not find the fullness of Christ in sects. You will not find complete teachings on Christ in Protestantism. You will find no witness of Christ’s resurrection --the greatest event in the history of mankind - in Protestantism.
Christ is the means through which God created the carnate universe. But Jesus did not become carnate man Himself, only until there was Mary.
Only through Mary’s yes in her free will, did Our Lord come into this world.
Without Mary, we would not have Jesus. And what made Mary special, blessed above other women? Protestants cannot answer that.
And because Protestantism cannot give you the complete understanding of Christ, likewise it cannot give you the depth of living faith, of the mystery of experiencing the sacred presence of Christ among us found present in the tabernacles around the world.
The Eucharist is the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Christ Himself that is separate and beyond all human beings and all of creation.
Christ sacrificed Himself first at the Last Supper when He said before the outward form of bread and wine that ‘This is My Body, This is My Blood’.
The altar of animal sacrifice in God appointed and defined worship He decreed in Exodus was now re-defined, transformed into the altar of the banquet table…and Our Lord talks of heaven as many mansions of the banquet table.
And it is the flesh and blood of Mary that was given to Christ to make Him true man.
What made Mary’s flesh and blood the one chosen to be given that to Christ and why? Protestantism cannot answer.
Yes, the Resurrection of Christ is the greatest event in history where time, matter, space, and death had no more power over us. So…after the Book of Revelation…what happened??
Where is testimony to the lives of those who have lived out in Christ for 2000 years that enhanced our understanding of Christ?
The witness of Christ’s resurrection is found in the documented times of Christianity and the lives in the saints found in the Church.
We are being called to communion all the time. Christ instituted only one Church, no more. We are not people of the book but people in relationship with Logos, the Living Word of God…Made Flesh…through Mary, and lived out and witnessed in Word and Sacraments in the lives of the saints and ordinary Catholics.
Please pray to the Lord to open yourself more to the Truth.
Jesus said to Pilate He is truth and He was crucified for revealing Truth.
Truth comes us never in sects or divisions, but in the gathering of people in communion.
The Holy Trinity is alone the author of communion.
Check out www.calledtocommunion.com. It is a work of former Protestants who have found the full truth of Christ in the Church. They give reasons and testimonies for their conversions.
F
Faithdancer
Guest
Thanks for sharing all that. Since this thread is about Mary I will address that part of your post. Protestants believe in the virgin birth. I think that virginitas post partum is irrelevant to the glory of Christ. But God certainly may have ameliorated the pain of childbirth for Mary if He chose -He being God and all. ( For decorum’s sake I won’t discuss virginitas in partu here.)
As far as what made Mary special and the greatest woman who ever lived? God chose her, and that is enough. He chose Her according to His providence. I think any Christian should understand that.
A
adf417
Guest
Makes sense to me - as long as we don’t think about that free will thing.Thanks for sharing all that. Since this thread is about Mary I will address that part of your post. Protestants believe in the virgin birth. I think that virginitas post partum is irrelevant to the glory of Christ. But God certainly may have ameliorated the pain of childbirth for Mary if He chose -He being God and all. ( For decorum’s sake I won’t discuss virginitas in partu here.)
As far as what made Mary special and the greatest woman who ever lived? God chose her, and that is enough. He chose Her according to His providence. I think any Christian should understand that.
Peace!!!
- Status