Former Catholics - Mary worship

[Richard_Feynman]

Mary was a human being. A great one, yes, but still a human being. I may pray for other human beings, but not to other human beings. Jesus Himself taught us in the Lord’s Prayer to pray directly to God, not to other human beings- not even to His mother, saintly though she was.

Would you pray to an angel? I mean, we’ve seen before that they can visit earth and interact with it… So why not an angel?

If you go by the Lord’s Prayer, then we should only pray to the Father. Also, Jesus being human in nature (and divine of course,) should we pray to him? He was a human after all.

 

[Faithdancer]

Would you pray to an angel? I mean, we’ve seen before that they can visit earth and interact with it… So why not an angel?

If you go by the Lord’s Prayer, then we should only pray to the Father. Also, Jesus being human in nature (and divine of course,) should we pray to him? He was a human after all.

Since God is three Persons, I think when we pray to God we pray to all three Persons. As far as why Jesus said (or its translated as ) “Our Father” and not “Our God,” you tell me. At any rate, the original prayer, in Aramaic, is considerably different and longer.

And I used to pray to the archangel Michael, but not since I stopped attending Catholic services.

And in the CV Bible the word God is rendered as “Boss,” which I kind of like, actually.

 

[Pitcharan]

It is perfectly fine to pray directly to God.

But also ponder over this: even the most brilliant and intelligent guys are known to plead their case with a judge through an advocate.

 

[Faithdancer]

So, Adjuditrix then?

 

[Richard_Feynman]

Since God is three Persons, I think when we pray to God we pray to all three Persons. As far as why Jesus said (or its translated as ) “Our Father” and not “Our God,” you tell me. At any rate, the original prayer, in Aramaic, is considerably different and longer.

And I used to pray to the archangel Michael, but not since I stopped attending Catholic services.

And in the CV Bible the word God is rendered as “Boss,” which I kind of like, actually.

No way! What does CV stand for? That’s an awesome way to translate it!

 

[dronald]

It is perfectly fine to pray directly to God.

But also ponder over this: even the most brilliant and intelligent guys are known to plead their case with a judge through an advocate.

Who’s the advocate?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Who’s the advocate?

Any one can be an advocate for another. ONE person (Jesus) is The Advocate for all humanity but that doesn’t mean that nobody else can ever be an advocate for anybody else. to God, but that it can ONLY be done 'all alone, through Jesus".

Suppose you are going to see a judge, who is also your advocate (The Trinity) and you take along some other people to be your advocates to the advocate. . . Certainly not unheard of.

Now suppose that some of those people have also appeared before that judge/advocate and have found favor. . .wouldn’t you like THOSE PEOPLE on your side? Stands to reason that if people who had already ‘been through the system’ and were in good favor in the court could be pretty helpful in pleading YOUR case, rather than you standing there pridefully and defiantly ALONE, because, "I can do my pleading BY MYSELF. I don’t NEED anybody else.

 

[pablope]

I was being a bit facetious with the upper vs. lower case p thing

. Prayer to me is for God, and God alone. 'Nuff said!

Still not responding to ad hominems, btw.

So…in other words…you are making your own definition of prayer…and are refusing to acknowledge the different or old meaning of prayer…

In other words…you are your own boss and you define what you want to believe?

 

[pablope]

Interesting stuff! Well, the CCC calls prayer worship, as do Protestant theologians, so just to be safe I pray directly to God. But I don’t suppose there is any harm in sincerely praying to Mary, in the belief that she hears your prayer.

Why do you think Mary, or the other saints in heaven…do not hear our prayers?

Do you think angels hear our prayers here on earth?

 

[Richard_Feynman]

Why do you think Mary, or the other saints in heaven…do not hear our prayers?

Do you think angels hear our prayers here on earth?

This, I cannot get over. Angels have repeatedly visited earth and interacted with humans… Why would they not be able to hear prayer?

Richard Feynman

 

[marywarfield]

This, I cannot get over. Angels have repeatedly visited earth and interacted with humans… Why would they not be able to hear prayer?

Richard Feynman

In Faithdancers defense I have to say this is not
the best argument for us Catholics to use. Angels
are pure spirit as God is Spirit. Angels have no material
or human form What Faithdancer is objecting to is our
praying to humans like Mary even though they
also possess the same Spirit. His view is even though
they are filled with Holy Spirit obviously, the fact that it
is/was human form makes praying to them idolatry.

 

[Richard_Feynman]

In Faithdancers defense I have to say this is not
the best argument for us Catholics to use. Angels
are pure spirit as God is Spirit. Angels have no material
or human form What Faithdancer is objecting to is our
praying to humans like Mary even though they
also possess the same Spirit. His view is even though
they are filled with Holy Spirit obviously, the fact that it
is/was human form makes praying to them idolatry.

If that’s it, we should go to the Catechism and search for Spirit and Soul… I’ve skimmed the sections but I think it would benefit this thread for everyone to go read that (including me.)
Also, I truly don’t understand this position because she isn’t a human anymore.

Richard Feynman

 

[Faithdancer]

No way! What does CV stand for? That’s an awesome way to translate it!

Cowboy Version.

 

[SyroMalankara]

His view is even though
they are filled with Holy Spirit obviously, the fact that it
is/was human form makes praying to them idolatry.

According to Merriam-Webster, idolatry is defined as:
1 : the worship of a physical object as a god
2: immoderate attachment or devotion to something

Nothing here says proper attachment and devotion to a person, who fulfills by their submission to God, in their very being God’s image and likeness to the fullest - is idolatry.

 

[Faithdancer]

No way! What does CV stand for? That’s an awesome way to translate it!

Oops, sorry pardner that’s “SCV” which stands for Simplified Cowboy Version. It’s a paraphrase, of course, and they’ve only done a couple of Books so far- Matthew and Romans.

And isn’t it interesting. Some feel closer to God when they pray to Mary. I feel closer to God when I’m around horses. Personally, I think that after humans and angels, the best created beings God ever made are horses. As silly as they are sometimes, there is something really spiritual about them. Maybe it’s because despite all their nuttiness they are prey animals and completely dependent on human beings for their welfare. They give a lot back, too, in their own way. Just to clarify, though, I don’t pray to them. I might, however, pray that they don’t kick me or buck me off or take a tumble jumping into the canter, however, hence my cowboy shootin’ club handle of “Prayer Rider.”

 

[Richard_Feynman]

Oops, sorry pardner that’s “SCV” which stands for Simplified Cowboy Version. It’s a paraphrase, of course, and they’ve only done a couple of Books so far- Matthew and Romans.

And isn’t it interesting. Some feel closer to God when they pray to Mary. I feel closer to God when I’m around horses. Personally, I think that after humans and angels, the best created beings God ever made are horses. As silly as they are sometimes, there is something really spiritual about them. Maybe it’s because despite all their nuttiness they are prey animals and completely dependent on human beings for their welfare. They give a lot back, too, in their own way. Just to clarify, though, I don’t pray to them. I might, however, pray that they don’t kick me or buck me off or take a tumble jumping into the canter, however, hence my cowboy shootin’ club handle of “Prayer Rider.”

I think this is a fantastic point! I respect your opinion of horses. I’ve never been around them, I wouldn’t know anything about them. They sound really nice and majestic.
Back to the point. Maybe people pray to Mary because that’s the only way they can “be around her” like you being around horses. The only other way I can think of is being around her is her body, but idk if that’s even here on earth. (It’s not according to Catholic doctrine.)
Does anyone think I’m close?

Richard Feynman

 

[adf417]

And isn’t it interesting. Some feel closer to God when they pray to Mary. I feel closer to God when I’m around horses. Personally, I think that after humans and angels, the best created beings God ever made are horses. As silly as they are sometimes, there is something really spiritual about them. Maybe it’s because despite all their nuttiness they are prey animals and completely dependent on human beings for their welfare. They give a lot back, too, in their own way. Just to clarify, though, I don’t pray to them. I might, however, pray that they don’t kick me or buck me off or take a tumble jumping into the canter, however, hence my cowboy shootin’ club handle of “Prayer Rider.”

Thanks for this clarification. Not that I think you worship horses, but that the need for this clarification speaks volumes for those of us needing the same clarification toward our devotion to Mary and the Saints. I hope you never feel the need to justify your personal worship to anyone except God.

Peace!!!

 

[EIF5A]

There have been saints who said something to the effect of (paraphrased), “If you don’t have devotion to the Blessed Mother, you cannot get saved.”

In light of the current discussion, how is this line of thinking interpreted?

When I still considered myself Protestant, I came across The Dialogue by St. Catherine of Siena. It wasn’t too heavy on Mariology, otherwise, I wouldn’t have read it at that point. In the private revelation to the saint, she records that God said those who have devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary will never (paraphrased) be taken up by satan, because this is done in deference to Jesus Christ.

So if you believe this private revelation (the Church does not require it but it seems to be helpful), God the Father has deemed it so because it was the express wish of Jesus, I think…

We like to think God desires to do everything by Himself, and in the end, everything good is done because of Him. But I think He utilizes the merits and “help” of His creatures so that in doing so, the creatures partake in the divine process. What parent wouldn’t like to see his/her child helping them in fixing a car, baking cookies, etc?

To think that God delegates tasks, and when we pray, we pray to those whom God has chosen and glorified in heaven, is not diminishing God’s power or honor.

Still, although I consider myself Catholic at heart, there are some Marian practices and beliefs (not the dogmas) that make me a bit nervous…

 

[stewstew03]

…
And isn’t it interesting. Some feel closer to God when they pray to Mary. I feel closer to God when I’m around horses. Personally, I think that after humans and angels, the best created beings God ever made are horses.
…

Don’t we all feel closer to God when we’re among saints (i.e., the communion of saints)? And don’t we all feel closer to God when we’re surrounded by God’s beautiful creatures? And isn’t that the point?

 

[rinnie]

The main purpose of prayer is to give God thanks and praise. It is only secondarily to ask for stuff, i.e. to petition Him. And if God is omniscient- and I believe that He is, by definition- then He knows my petititions before I even ask them. How could the intercession of anyone else possibly affect the outcome, which is already determined according to God’s plan? Does anyone propose that God is indecisive and can be influenced, or changes His mind based on how many people are asking for something? Zeus, maybe, but not the God of the Bible.

That being said, if it gives y’all comfort to pray to Mary and to give her titles (which based on her total humility, I suggest that she doesn’t need or want)- y’all go right ahead!

So then you don’t believe in praying for one another then?