Former Catholics - Mary worship

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Faithdancer said:
When I attended Catholic services, then. I don’t anymore, I attend services at other churches.

“For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;” (1 Timothy 2:5)
By definition, then, neither Mary, the saints in heaven or any living persons can be mediators.
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Incorrect. A mediator is someone who makes decisions.

A venerator is who you could call a good lawyer helping to state your case you could say
God still makes the decisions.

Here is a good example. You are a drug addict and trying to quit drugs. So you go home and try to quit on your own. The devil and all his demons surround you tempting.

You surround yourself with the Blessed Mother and Saints, the devil knows he cannot win so easy, he would rather leave and go to someone else to tempt.

So you surround yourself with people who love you and want you to win, Instead of people who want to see you destroyed.

Like St Michael he fights off the devil.

In the end God still gives us free will to choose, but the Saints help make it a fair fight.

One demon says take it, it will make the world go away, take the easy way out.

The Blessed Mother, your Mother who loves you says please take it one day at a time, Go to my Son, Hurry, I will go with you to him, Carry you if I need to.

The Blessed Mother cares and does not want to see your hurt, she is your Mother. Mothers want to help their child in suffering.

The devil could care less, rejoices in it actually.

While she was not a mediator, who judges, makes decisions. She had a influence in helping you go to the right person her Son.

When we call on the Angels and Saints we are asking for (safety in numbers you could say).
 
Bernard_Lyons said:
Tantrum ergo
It was not my intention ,to relegate ,the role of Mary ,the mother of Jesus ,below that esteem,meet ;and honour due ,and appropriate to ,those other great women of faith ,referred to in my last post.

Being ,as always,imperfect in my ways,it perhaps was very possible ,for you ,to miss my intended context : in relation to my comparing these other great women ;and their faith, with that of Mary’s .

The point at which Mary is seen to risk her reputation,is prior to ,and during her pregnancy.
As Joseph too,agreed with; and submitted to God’s will ,prior to the birth of Jesus,then this risk( to her reputation) was somewhat diminished through his God ordained role ,and was found " with Mary his espoused wife,being great with child." (Luke 2:5)

It is within the context of this period ,where ,my comparison was intended ,and I believed,restricted to.

Yes,I count myself blessed indeed,that such a one,not worthy " of the least of all " his “mercies” ,as I am ,should be father to two children ,both with cerebral palsy ; and wheelchair users.
They have suffered greatly in there young lives.The boy,especially :who the good Lord ,(from my perspective) has on several occasions,all but taken from me.

I can conceive of no greater trial to ones faith ,than ,to look upon ,as your suffering son,is near the point of death,and not be able to provide relief; nor be able to rescue him.

So in no small measure ( Praise the Lord!) I know what it is to have “a sword pierce” my heart also,and enter in ,thereby.

Mary the mother of Jesus had her unique role( with much sufferings) to play; but so did all the other holy women of faith too.

My intention was comparison ,not to make any ( Mary included) ,to be any less (or more) significant.

Catholic teaching however does ,yet again, exult one above the other ,and that,I believe where scripture does not.(see Matt 12:47-50)

This is nowhere more noticeable in the RC claim,regarding : that " woman " ,seen in Revelation 12, Is Mary the mother of Jesus.

Where I believe ,the woman seen is meant to encompasses :all the great woman of Faith (both OT and NT)

Have not Catholics ,in this interpretation ,elevated Mary ,to this very place ,where ,for me ,
the figurative " woman" ought to have remained?
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I don’t know where to begin, first my prayers for you in your suffering. We all get our turn you could say one way or another.

In the RCC we turn to Mary in our suffering, not only because she can relate to us on a human level on our suffering, but we wish to imitate her for her total faith in God. Where Mary is different from us and these other Women is she never asked WHY? or Why me. It was here total faith in God to accept this suffering and believe it is for a better reason only God knows.

We as humans cannot see what is the good is human suffering, of ourselves or others.

Mary did not know either why her Son who was completely without Sin was called to die this way, But she accepted it and never questioned God.

Its not that the other women or us don’t suffer, or even can do the will of God in it. Its to do it with no doubt in our mind its Gods will and that’s enough for us. And trusting God to know he has a reason and will indeed make good of it.

She showed us that even those who obey God and love him, may not understand everything. Because we do not have the mind of him, but must trust him.

She was saved without sin, but yet also suffered as her Son for our Sin.

Who in this would can say that they don’t have sin? Don’t deserve to suffer?

The same women who said Yes God in the Joy of bringing Christ into the world, was the same Women who said Yes God to watching him suffer more then any other human being in the world. Yet she never sinned, We did.

We the sinners say why God why me, or my Son or Daughter. Yet she said its the will of God and moved on, That’s the big difference.

As far as revelations, I am not sure what you mean there, My bad there. But if you are saying that it not Mary the Mother of God, then who was the Virgin who brought forth the male Child who of course is Jesus who bore him then?
 
stewstew03 said:
Don’t we all feel closer to God when we’re among saints (i.e., the communion of saints)? And don’t we all feel closer to God when we’re surrounded by God’s beautiful creatures? And isn’t that the point?
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:extrahappy::extrahappy:
 
Bernard_Lyons said:
Tantrum ergo
It was not my intention ,to relegate ,the role of Mary ,the mother of Jesus ,below that esteem,meet ;and honour due ,and appropriate to ,those other great women of faith ,referred to in my last post.

Being ,as always,imperfect in my ways,it perhaps was very possible ,for you ,to miss my intended context : in relation to my comparing these other great women ;and their faith, with that of Mary’s .

The point at which Mary is seen to risk her reputation,is prior to ,and during her pregnancy.
As Joseph too,agreed with; and submitted to God’s will ,prior to the birth of Jesus,then this risk( to her reputation) was somewhat diminished through his God ordained role ,and was found " with Mary his espoused wife,being great with child." (Luke 2:5)

It is within the context of this period ,where ,my comparison was intended ,and I believed,restricted to.

Yes,I count myself blessed indeed,that such a one,not worthy " of the least of all " his “mercies” ,as I am ,should be father to two children ,both with cerebral palsy ; and wheelchair users.
They have suffered greatly in there young lives.The boy,especially :who the good Lord ,(from my perspective) has on several occasions,all but taken from me.

I can conceive of no greater trial to ones faith ,than ,to look upon ,as your suffering son,is near the point of death,and not be able to provide relief; nor be able to rescue him.

So in no small measure ( Praise the Lord!) I know what it is to have “a sword pierce” my heart also,and enter in ,thereby.

Mary the mother of Jesus had her unique role( with much sufferings) to play; but so did all the other holy women of faith too.

My intention was comparison ,not to make any ( Mary included) ,to be any less (or more) significant.

Catholic teaching however does ,yet again, exult one above the other ,and that,I believe where scripture does not.(see Matt 12:47-50)

This is nowhere more noticeable in the RC claim,regarding : that " woman " ,seen in Revelation 12, Is Mary the mother of Jesus.

Where I believe ,the woman seen is meant to encompasses :all the great woman of Faith (both OT and NT)

Have not Catholics ,in this interpretation ,elevated Mary ,to this very place ,where ,for me ,
the figurative " woman" ought to have remained?
Click to expand...
Do you mean to say there is no difference between
Mary and the other women of the Bible? I didn’t
see which religion you follow but I believe for most
Christian religions the difference is ravingly
clear. Mary is the mother of God Himself and
to me that fact is startling. This is not
applicable to any other woman of the Bible no matter
how holy they are. We elevate Mary as we elevate Christ.
Or are you as some do suggesting there is no difference
between Jesus and Elijah or Jesus and Moses?
 
SyroMalankara said:
According to Merriam-Webster, idolatry is defined as:
1 : the worship of a physical object as a god
2: immoderate attachment or devotion to something

Nothing here says proper attachment and devotion to a person, who fulfills by their submission to God, in their very being God’s image and likeness to the fullest - is idolatry.
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Many Christian religions hold the human body to
be a physical object with no redeeming features whatsoever.
Therefore honoring the Spirit in that body is held
as a form of idolatry yes.
This is one of the chief complaints against Catholics-
that by venerating Mary or the saints we are committing
idolatry as these people were material
human beings not God.
 
EIF5A said:
There have been saints who said something to the effect of (paraphrased), “If you don’t have devotion to the Blessed Mother, you cannot get saved.”

In light of the current discussion, how is this line of thinking interpreted?

When I still considered myself Protestant, I came across The Dialogue by St. Catherine of Siena. It wasn’t too heavy on Mariology, otherwise, I wouldn’t have read it at that point. In the private revelation to the saint, she records that God said those who have devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary will never (paraphrased) be taken up by satan, because this is done in deference to Jesus Christ.

So if you believe this private revelation (the Church does not require it but it seems to be helpful), God the Father has deemed it so because it was the express wish of Jesus, I think…

We like to think God desires to do everything by Himself, and in the end, everything good is done because of Him. But I think He utilizes the merits and “help” of His creatures so that in doing so, the creatures partake in the divine process. What parent wouldn’t like to see his/her child helping them in fixing a car, baking cookies, etc?

To think that God delegates tasks, and when we pray, we pray to those whom God has chosen and glorified in heaven, is not diminishing God’s power or honor.

Still, although I consider myself Catholic at heart, there are some Marian practices and beliefs (not the dogmas) that make me a bit nervous…
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No one has answered your question yet… 😊 I will! I sense a bit of hyperbole going into the saints statements about Mary you paraphrased. A devotion to Mary does NOT guarantee you a spot in Heaven nor does the lack of a devotion keep people from Heaven. The point , I believe, that they are trying to get across is that if you are close with Jesus’ mother, the perfect representation of the seven heavenly virtues, then you will become spiritually closer with God. It makes sense in this aspect. As a secular example, if I want to become a great wide receiver, I’m going to look to an NFL (or CFL) player. I’m going to strive to work out like they do and eat like they do and catch like they do. So eventually I can play football (hopefully) as well as they can! 🙂 then when the time comes… If I try out for the NFL I can get in because I’m as good as that other receiver already in the NFL!

Hope I helped!

Richard Feynman
 
EIF5A said:
There have been saints who said something to the effect of (paraphrased), “If you don’t have devotion to the Blessed Mother, you cannot get saved.”

In light of the current discussion, how is this line of thinking interpreted?

When I still considered myself Protestant, I came across The Dialogue by St. Catherine of Siena. It wasn’t too heavy on Mariology, otherwise, I wouldn’t have read it at that point. In the private revelation to the saint, she records that God said those who have devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary will never (paraphrased) be taken up by satan, because this is done in deference to Jesus Christ.

So if you believe this private revelation (the Church does not require it but it seems to be helpful), God the Father has deemed it so because it was the express wish of Jesus, I think…

We like to think God desires to do everything by Himself, and in the end, everything good is done because of Him. But I think He utilizes the merits and “help” of His creatures so that in doing so, the creatures partake in the divine process. What parent wouldn’t like to see his/her child helping them in fixing a car, baking cookies, etc?

To think that God delegates tasks, and when we pray, we pray to those whom God has chosen and glorified in heaven, is not diminishing God’s power or honor.

Still, although I consider myself Catholic at heart, there are some Marian practices and beliefs (not the dogmas) that make me a bit nervous…
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I think the answer to your question lies in an imperfect
understanding of the Incarnation both with Mary
and all baptized Catholics who remain in grace.
Satan can have no effect on Christ therefore
no effect on the Holy Spirit a person receives in Baptism.
It is only when we sin against that Spirit received in
Baptism that Satan finds an open door.
But unless one accepts the reality of the reception
of the Holy Spirit individually, the point of Mary herself
is lost.
We become Marian ourselves. We become God Bearers
ourselves with Baptism. And we need to not downplay
it as just another interesting fact but treat it with the
significance it is. If we say Mary is irrelevant by the
fact of her humanity our own Baptism and reception
of the Spirit becomes an irrelevancy as well.
 
marywarfield said:
I think the answer to your question lies in an imperfect
understanding of the Incarnation both with Mary
and all baptized Catholics who remain in grace.
Satan can have no effect on Christ therefore
no effect on the Holy Spirit a person receives in Baptism.
It is only when we sin against that Spirit received in
Baptism that Satan finds an open door.
But unless one accepts the reality of the reception
of the Holy Spirit individually, the point of Mary herself
is lost.
We become Marian ourselves. We become God Bearers
ourselves with Baptism. And we need to not downplay
it as just another interesting fact but treat it with the
significance it is. If we say Mary is irrelevant by the
fact of her humanity our own Baptism and reception
of the Spirit becomes an irrelevancy as well.
Click to expand...
This doesn’t really address the question of whether devotion to Mary is necessary for salvation…

And we will never be Mary…

In many discussions about Mary, it’s how she is singular, unique, and most honored Mother of God.

And she has a relationship to Jesus that we do not.

It wasn’t a question about the Holy Spirit and the mystery of the Incarnation.

It was simply, “Is devotion to Mary required to be saved?”

How many Rosaries, Litanies, and prayers should one say to be considered “devoted”?
 
EIF5A said:
This doesn’t really address the question of whether devotion to Mary is necessary for salvation…

And we will never be Mary…

In many discussions about Mary, it’s how she is singular, unique, and most honored Mother of God.

And she has a relationship to Jesus that we do not.

It wasn’t a question about the Holy Spirit and the mystery of the Incarnation.

It was simply, "Is devotion to Mary required to be saved?"

How many Rosaries, Litanies, and prayers should one say to be considered “devoted”?
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I feel like I answered this. But onto the next question. It’s very personal what a “devotion” is. I can’t p(name removed by moderator)oint exact things that make a devoted husband “devoted.” 🙂
Hope I helped!

Richard Feynman
 
EIF5A said:
This doesn’t really address the question of whether devotion to Mary is necessary for salvation…

And we will never be Mary…

In many discussions about Mary, it’s how she is singular, unique, and most honored Mother of God.

And she has a relationship to Jesus that we do not.

It wasn’t a question about the Holy Spirit and the mystery of the Incarnation.

It was simply, “Is devotion to Mary required to be saved?”

How many Rosaries, Litanies, and prayers should one say to be considered “devoted”?
Click to expand...
It’s actually in response to your statement that
without devotion to Mary one cannot be saved.
I don’t believe that is a straight summary of what
the saints actually say.
The best quote I think comes from Fulton Sheen
“to despise the Mother is to despise the Son”.
A world of difference. In the saints and in Sheens
view one must not despise the Mother.
But I’ve never heard any Catholic preach that
“without devotion to Mary one cannot be saved.”
That is simply not true and a quick perusal of
the Catechism will provide answers to why.
 
marywarfield said:
It’s actually in response to your statement that
without devotion to Mary one cannot be saved.
I don’t believe that is a straight summary of what
the saints actually say.
The best quote I think comes from Fulton Sheen
“to despise the Mother is to despise the Son”.
A world of difference. In the saints and in Sheens
view one must not despise the Mother.
But I’ve never heard any Catholic preach that
“without devotion to Mary one cannot be saved.”
That is simply not true and a quick perusal of
the Catechism will provide answers to why.
Click to expand...
For examples: Mary is Necessary

“It is impossible to save one’s soul without devotion to Mary and without her protection.”
St. Anselm

“I have great doubts about the salvation of those who do not have special devotion to Mary.”
St. Francis Borgia
 
Just the other day someone on Youtube accused me of worshiping Mary. I tried to defend the Catholic Church but I was unable to reply because she blocked me.
 
EIF5A said:
For examples: Mary is Necessary

“It is impossible to save one’s soul without devotion to Mary and without her protection.”
St. Anselm

“I have great doubts about the salvation of those who do not have special devotion to Mary.”
St. Francis Borgia
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Salvation does not depend on devotion to Mary. I cannot find
any such statement in the Catholic Catechism. Perhaps
you can and I’ve missed it.
Simply put our Church does not teach that salvation
requires knowledge of or devotion to Mary.
Although pretty much that is what we all personally
feel it is simply just not there in RCIA or the catechism itself.
Devotion to Mary is a sign of pre-destination,
but devotion to Mary does not guarantee salvation
either.
Devotion to Mary is a natural maturing in the expression
of one’s love for God. No one can fully and completely
worship or love God fully without naturally gravitating
toward love of the Holy Mother. Likewise the increasing
love of the Mother increases our love of the Son.

But without regard to the laudable statements of piety
on the part of your saints quoted above the Catholic
Church no where teaches that devotion to or even
the awareness of her existence is a requirement for
salvation.
 
So what do we actually know of Mary’s role in salvation?

She is the cause of salvation by virtue of her cooperation
with God in bringing Christ into the world.

She is His Mother.
Christ is our ONLY Savior.
He is the source of all grace.
That grace flows through Mary.

Are non Catholics required to know or believe that?
No.
Can non Catholics be saved without devotion to
Mary?
Ostensibly yes simply because the salvific grace of
Christ through Mary is offered constantly to the
world and is not dependent on what any human being
thinks for its own life and actions.
Secondly I must point out that as far as I can see
none of the Apostles ever recited one rosary novena.

Am I minimalizing Mary?
No. But Mary would be the first to tell you that
her Son is your only Savior.
 
Be merciful to those who doubt; save others by snatching them from the fire; to others show mercy, mixed with fear—hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh.
Jude 1:22-23

You know that is exactly what Mary does- she “saves” by bringing
sinners to knowledge of her Son. In this sense
she “saves” just as of course you are a “savior”
doing the same thing with a husband or child or
neighbor.

Do you even have to know that she prays for you?
That she even exists?

No. Therefore Mary can “save” you in that sense
without your devotion or knowledge. She “saves” you
by her prayers that you come to the knowledge
of her Son. In the same sense you pray your friend
will convert but Mary’s prayers are more powerful
than yours.

But it is Christ who remains THE Savior. Is sacrifice
is not replaceable. And He also is the final judge
of who is saved and who is not.

Now many Protestants will claim that stating Mary “saves”
is idolatry but happily quote Jude 1. Go figure lol.
 
And finally there are those who claim active devotion
to Mary is a requirement for salvation and that those
who do not have (as opposed to those who actively reject her
which is another story and does under certain circumstances
lead to damnation) this devotion will be damned. These same
will also claim there is no salvation outside
the Catholic fold. Both are incorrect.

To be in the Church properly in grace means the
Catholic absolutely accept the articles of faith in
so far as Mary goes and rejecting those
articles is a matter of grave sin. And along with
accepting those articles one presumably begins
to develop a reasonable devotion to Mary.

However the Church does NOT state there is
absolutely no salvation outside of the Church- we
know circumstances that occur on which it is very
possible to be saved without becoming a full member
of the faith.
Obviously if there are circumstances in which one
can be saved outside of the Church then those same
circumstances exist to those who never heard of
Mary as well.
We can conclude therefore that:
Mary’s intercession is necessary for salvation.
Knowledge of or devotion to that intercession is not.

catholic.com/tracts/salvation-outside-the-church
 
marywarfield said:
Mary’s intercession is necessary for salvation.
Knowledge of or devotion to that intercession is not.
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Good points. The way this summed up reminded of St Louis de Montfort’s conclusion in the Secret of Mary.

“The difficulty, then, is to find really and truly the most Blessed Virgin Mary in order to find all abundant grace. God being the absolute Master, can confer directly by Himself that which He usually grants only through Mary. It would be even trash to deny that sometimes He does so. Nevertheless, St Thomas teaches us that in the order of Divine Wisdom, God ordinarily communicates Himself to men only through Mary. Thus if we are to approach Him to be united with Him, we must use the same means He used to come down to us, to be made man and impart His graces to us.”
 
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