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joe371
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:yup:
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Cube2
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Below is the passage.
Num:21:8: And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looks upon it, shall live.
John:3:14-15: And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
What healed the Israelites when they looked at the serpent?
Jesus is likening the same event to himself. Jesus was hung on a cross in a similar manner that the serpent was hung on a pole.
Despite the fact that there is church governance, its subject to Christ Himself. The Holy Spirit is the one guiding the Church.
Lets agree; not worship. It represented a God who is holy; so people had to be holy as they approached it. Only chosen people (Levites) were to carry it.
The Ark was put in the ‘Holy of Holies’ of the temple. That place a priest entered once a year to burn incense to offer a sacrifice & burn incense.
He was tied with a dangling rope so that if he is unclean and dies while inside, he is pulled out as nobody else would have entered in that place.
God wanted the Israelites to understand that He is holy. He had to bring a physical item that symbolized his presence and His holiness.
The coming of Jesus was to usher in a new dispensation of God’s people who are sanctified not by the yearly sacrifices of bulls, but by a single sacrifice of the Son of God.
Jesus prophesied of the destruction of the temple. The destruction of the Ark and the Holy of Holies was the climax of the end of the old order as there was no place to offer the annual sacrifices.
Thus even if there was physical fear/veneration of the Ark, it ended with the coming of Jesus, and later the destruction of the same Ark. By then the Ark & the holy place did not kill the invading Roman soldiers.
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rcwitness
Guest
Welcome badnewsbarrett,
I personally dont feel this is true. The Holy Spirit and a healthy fear of our creator is the beginning of understanding God. As far as her being the ‘key’ to Christ, that might depend on how you, or anyone in particular defines that expression. She was the door in which Christ entered the world. And this was not only in the flesh, but her spirit submitted willingly to offering her son to the world. This is her motherhood which Christ recognized at Calvary and in return gave His mother as ours. This may very well be debated by some as merely giving John a responsibility to provide a home. Catholics believe this blessing went further.
I think these are good observations. I myself am a convert from Evangelical Free upbringing. One thing I’d remind, is that Sacred Scripture is regarded equally high by formal Catholic faith! Many Devout Catholics recognize this, while shallow Catholics do not accept this.
This is also probably accurate. To me, it gives a confirmation to the dysfunction Protestantism has in diminishing the Works of the Saints through history. These Works of Mary and all the Saints is really Christ’s own activity in the world. They are our New Family, as New Creations.
My only question to anyone, is what is “devotion to Mary”???
I believe we gain our Mother Mary by obeying Christ. But there is also a Spirit of evangelism in Mary’s obedience to Christ!!! Here is the Key to understanding a genuine devotion to Mary:
Mary herself is perfectly transparent to faith in her Son!
Wheather or not an individual is honoring Christ through Mary will be evident by their deeds. A devotion to Mary should be by default from a devotion to the Universal Church, which should be by default from a devotion to Jesus.
So a genuine Protestant is by default devoted to Mary when devoted to honoring the commandments of Her Son. Their issue is in assuming Catholics cannot honor Christ in a devotion to Mary. I say, it just depends what constitutes their devotion.
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badnewsbarrett
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I want to thank you for taking the time to find the quote, for your initial reply, and to rcwitness for some valuable additional (name removed by moderator)ut. I want to ask one more question about the association between the Eucharist and Mary, especially as put forward in the Augustine quote- Jesus was born of the virgin Mary, however He was also conceived by the Holy Spirit. Jesus took His flesh from Mary (this is in quotes) therefore take notice of Mary’s presence in the Host, inseparably united with it (this is in caps and I’m paraphrasing a little). Mary was one of Jesus’ parents, accordingly she may have a mystical presence in the Eucharist that can be talked about. What of the Holy Spirit, by whom Jesus was conceived? Is there a mystical presence of the Holy Spirit in the Eucharist? And- this may be above your pay grade, but I might as well try- when we speak of the Holy Spirit’s connection to Jesus where the Incarnation is concerned, and when we speak of Mary’s connection to Jesus where the Incarnation is concerned, are there particularly important distinctions between those two connections? Or would we mainly be talking about similarities which lead to some similar outcomes as far as devotion?
Edit- when I say “devotion,” I am talking first and foremost about Eucharistic devotion, which I believe is the main thrust of the quote that you generously took the time to find.
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SyroMalankara
Guest
the Grace of God with man’s response of Faith and obedience, the same as today.
Right. Always guiding the Church, from the beginning.
Hmm, designated people chosen to do a certain task, who dress according to certain rules; have to do some Liturgical acts, sometimes using incense, etc, where does one see that?
Most symbols from the Old Order become personified in the New, e.g. Jesus, Mary, the Church, the Saints, etc
A single perpetual Sacrifice.
The destruction of the Ark was not the end of the old order, the Annunciation to St. Mary is; and the destruction of the Temple was not the end of the old order, the Incarnation is.
But Jesus and Mary thru Jesus did convert them and their ancestors.
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marywarfield
Guest
Not sure exactly of the question here so I may be answering
incorrectly but my understanding that it is through the
action of the Holy Spirit sourced in God and proceeding
through Christ that the Eucharist occurs at all.
As far as “mystical presence” the Eucharist is the
meeting of Heaven and earth- in other words during
the Eucharist all of Heaven is present and that would
include Mary, the Saints and angels as well- the
entire Mystical Body of Christ is present. Not sure
about the living souls in Purgatory- I think not.
B
Bernard_Lyons
Guest
Genesis 3:15 “And I will put enmity between thee and the woman,and between thy seed and her seed;it shall bruise thy head ,and thou shall bruise his heal”
joe371,
As I stated previously,the ‘woman’ of Rev 12, is but one in number: it is not women.
Upon enquiry it was acknowledged that in RC understanding of this chapter,‘woman’ must therefore have a symbolic and a literal content in its meaning.
A literal’ Mary ’ you say,leaving us a symbolic ’ Israel’ (and church) thus ,all represented by the single use of the word ‘women’.
For me it would seem more reasonable to have the singular ‘woman’ either to be wholly symbolic of Israel ,Mary bring part of that and included in the commonwealth thereof; or to have the singular ‘Mary’ to be in fact the literal ‘woman’.
It seems impossible to me to have a symbolic crown of equally symbolic twelve stars (representing twelve tribes)sitting upon a head that is literal.Or Is the head also symbolic but is somehow detached from the literal body?
Like wise her feet which are standing upon the symbolic ‘sun and moon’ ( Jacob and his wife) are the feet then also separate from this woman’s body?
Consider also the ‘man child’ (verse 5) who ,as you say ,is prophetic of the coming ‘Christ’ ‘who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron:" but here it is the child not the man ,who in actual fact was(who we both believe ,)was ‘caught up unto God,and his throne.’
But in verse 5 it is the child Jesus that is seen caught up:
‘and her child was caught up unto God,and to his throne’.
How does one explain this unless the ’ woman’ is seen in symbolism?
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marywarfield
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Correction - Souls in Purgatory are present.
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badnewsbarrett
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Thank you very much for taking the time, I appreciate it. That does help adjust my vantage point so I can see what you see more clearly.
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YADA
Guest
Bernard - you impose artificial breaks upon the scriptures with Chapter and Verse breaks to change thoughts and contexts and by imposing either or limitation to whether something is symbolic or more literal but not both and also whether something can be symbolic on deeper and multiple levels of understanding …
Revelation Chapter 11 immediately prior to this tells the reader that the Ark - which has been lost to the Israelite’s for centuries resides in Heaven - and then this Ark is described in Chapter 12 … we see the Woman clothed with the sun battling the ancient foe … this invokes both the ‘woman’ Eve who acquiesced to the Serpent and ushered sin into the world and the ‘woman’ Mary who’s fiat - yes to God - ushered into the world the redemption / salvation from sin … and Mary is the Mother of Jesus - Mother of God … she is also our spiritual mother - the Mother of the Church [which Jesus founded] … Jesus is our Lord and Savior, He is our God, He is the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, He is the Word Made Flesh, He is the Good Shepherd … Jesus is the Bride Groom … all of these are true - you would not limit Jesus to one - or two - or three … similarly this passage in Revelation is understood on various levels … and which - even those concerning Mary - all point to Jesus …
Mary as the Mother of God - points to the Divinity of Christ … Mary as our Mother and the Mother of the Church points to our son-ship in Christ - heirs to the Father and our elder brother … Mary tell us to “Do whatever He [Jesus] tells us” … Jesus said - “who is my mother and my brothers? … Those who do the will of my Father” … Who is the one person who did the will of God - Mary with her “Yes - be it done unto me according to your Word” …
You try too hard to prove 2000 years of Christian understanding and belief and in so doing impoverish our Lord and Savior - and what it means to be fully a follower of Christ
Pax Christi
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Bernard_Lyons
Guest
Hi YDDA,
For me Hebrews Chapter 8 shows to us that those things ( in respect to the true worship of God) which were revealed ( to Moses) to be instituted and constructed upon the earth,were only a shadow( a pale representation) of their heavenly counterparts.
Although( Heb 8) this chapter is mainly looking at Christ’s high priesthood ,which priesthood was merely prefigured upon the earth,verse 5 informs us that not only was the earthly high priesthood temporary ,in its duration ,that is until Christ our great high priest was come,but all things that were made were also a mere shadow ,
" Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle :for,see,saith he,that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount"
This especially includes the ‘Ark’ ,which remained in that tabernacle which was
‘called the Holiest of all’ (Heb9:3-4) ‘which had the golden censer,and the ark of the covenant’
But in regards to this earthly ark ,which was just for that time being (verse 9),meant to be but a type( of Christ ) we are instructed are we not ,that when the true ( Christ) appears,the old is done away with :what place therefore remains for the old ( ark) ,on earth ,never mind in heaven ,when that is ,Christ wonderfully eclipses that which was just his shadow?
Hebrews 9:11 “But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come ,by a greater and more perfect tabernacle,not made with hands,that is to say ,not this building”
The new Covenant for me is entirely heavenly ,and when the Ark ,the high priest together with his perfect,spotless and sinless sacrifice,( I’m sure you would agree) ascended into the heavens:'the son of righteousness …with healing in his wings" (Malachi 4:2)
He shine’s there above the brightness of the sun.
Not then for us is the old earthly type,but:
“This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days ,saith The Lord,I will put my laws into their hearts,and in their minds will I write them”(Hebrews 1016)
In any case where in scripture does Mary ( except for that which is common to all believers) have any connection to the Ark,either on earth or with that which it truly represented :in heaven?
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YADA
Guest
You have it correct Bernard when you say "For me … " and "The new Covenant for me … " Your faith is totally one where You interject your personal interpretation upon the scriptures and that interpretation becomes your personal reality … and you are here attempting to tell everyone else they are wrong and you are correct … and even when you are shown that you are in correct - you just change the topic or continue to ignore what is shown you …
This happened when you insisted that all eunuchs of Jesus’ time were men who had been surgically castrated … and when it was pointed out that the very passage you cited as your support in fact described two differing forms - you acknowledged it after a fashion but stayed steadfast in your belief which was just shown to be a fallacy …
The Book of Revelation actually describes - in apocalyptic prose - Mary as the Ark of the New Covenant and Crowned as Queen … Like Daniel - Revelation is prophetic and apocalyptic in genre … and that is not the same as being merely a prediction of future events as some would have it … The Gospel of John specifically references Mary as "woman’ at Cana - as do the synoptic Gospels reference Mary as “woman” when she stands at the Cross and is given to John [and us] as mother … These references are packed with meaning as are all of the scriptures … .
I feel for you - I know you love Jesus and want to share that love with others … but you want to share a faith that is formed in your image and one that is limited to only that which you are able to comprehend - You argue against a faith that has survived 2000 for one that is founded in beliefs, views and practices that are less then three hundred years old … The fruit of this personal interpretation is division and confusion in Christian practice and belief …
The new Covenant is not some far off place [you said " is entirely heavenly"] but with us here and now … Jesus is our perfect High Priest - but did not do away with earthly priestly ministry - no in fact he put in place the office of the Prime Minister [Read Isaiah - Jesus quotes Isaiah when He [Jesus] says He is building His Jesus’] Church and then gives Peter the Keys to Heaven along with the authority to bind and loose on Earth and in Heaven - in His name.
We see that Peter holds a special Office and that all the Apostles hold an Office … an Office that is perpetual [as is the Church Jesus founded] such that when the Office holder leaves - the Office is filled with another …
Read the Scriptures in totality, study the scriptures in detail and in context … give up your personal biases and your love for our Lord will increase along with the very richness of your faith … Study the writings of the first Christians - especially the first and second centuries … you will be inspired and amazed …
P
PJM
Guest
Friend this is a MYTH spread by uniformed non-catholics
Catholics Reverance, honor and respect the exaulted position Mary and the Saints have attained; BUT WE DO NOT WORSHIP MARY.
IN FACT IT IS NOT EVEN MANDATED THAT WE PRAY TO HER.
This discussion would be incomplete without an explanation of WHY we do what we do. To try to make the issue clear we will use the ”HAILMARY” [used in the Rosary] prayer, which is by far the most used prayer next to the LORDS PAYER, as our example of what we Catholics actually do, and why we do it.
***Hail Mary, [Lk. 1:28]
Full of Grace [Lk. 1:28]
The Lord is with thee [Lk 1:27]
Blessed are you among all women [Lk 1:42]
And Blessed in the fruit of your womb: Jesus [Lk. 1;42]
Holy Mary [Lk.1: 28]
Mother of God 1:35
Pray for us sinners [our catholic petition]
Now and at the hour of our death
Amen” ***
God Bless you,
Patrick**
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PJM
Guest
GOD IS:
Luke 1: 26-35
" And in the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God into a city of Galilee, called Nazareth, [27] To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’ s name was Mary. [28] And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. [29] Who having heard, was troubled at his saying, and thought with herself what manner of salutation this should be. [30] And the angel said to her: Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found grace with God.
[31] Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and shalt bring forth a son; and thou shalt call his name Jesus. [32] He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the most High; and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of David his father; and he shall reign in the house of Jacob for ever. [33] And of his kingdom there shall be no end. [34] And Mary said to the angel: How shall this be done, because I know not man? [35] And the angel answering, said to her:*** The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the most High shall overshadow thee. And therefore also the Holy which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God"***.
God Bless you,
Patrick
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marywarfield
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It is not required to pray to Mary.
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Dorothy
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But it certainly would be a great loss to not get to know our Mother.
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adf417
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Correct!
And for those who view prayer as worship, this statement should shed a little more light on what Catholic worship is and is not.Peace!!!
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Elizium23
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Yes it is. Perhaps you are familiar with a prayer known as the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass? A part known as the Confiteor has the following passage in it:
That is what’s commonly known as “praying to Mary” (not to mention all the angels and saints in the Communion of Saints) and it’s part of the Mass which is optional to the priest but compulsory to the people when it is so chosen. So unless you plan to spend your entire life seeking out Masses and priests who do not choose to use the Confiteor, it is compulsory to pray to Mary, to the angels and the saints, and to believe in the Communion of Saints, in order to be a Catholic. And likewise, woe betide someone who neglects to pray a rosary or the Magnificat or sing the Immaculate Mary at least once in a while.
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