Former Catholics - Mary worship

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Dorothy said:
Bernard Lyons,

What Catholics believe to be the divinely appointed Magisterium (teaching authority) of the Church has spoken, and I believe it is the Voice of Christ.

I believe that any reasoning that you put forward to the contrary, can be explained away. Not to you, but to believing Catholics.

I hope that someday you will come to understand that. Insisting that we are wrong isn’t going to change us.

May you be blessed,

Dorothy
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Amen Dorothy. Our Blessed Mother gave birth to Jesus, she is the Mother of God, she was there at the beginning of our Lord’s public ministry and she was at the foot of the Cross. Catholics hold Scripture to be Sacred but also Tradition.
 
KathleenGee said:
No there is no worship of Mary.
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This is the question. Is there? We can show refference to Teaching, which we follow, showing that we certainly should not give her God’s glory. But I’m not convinced that no Catholic has a ‘private’ devotion to her which does give her God’s glory. So far not too many protestants have confessed doing this during their time as confessed Catholics. Though I think one or two have, with the notion that they did so in conformity of the Catholic devotion to Mary.

I disagree, that if they were in fact giving Mary God’s glory they were doing so in accordance with Chirch Teaching. It should be their duty to show how the Church guided them into this Idolatry.

But the issue remains, are there those with unhealthy devotions to Mary, which the rest of us Catholics are not concerned about simply because they have ‘a devotion to Mary’? I think Catholics have a duty to discern the devotion of our close friends in Jesus, while in our fellowship with them. This can be most challenging, because it requires the very love, kindness, conviction, wisdom from above, which we know is from the Lord.
Christ the High Priest ministers to us at the Mass to continue the great event of all time, His Passion, death and Resurrection for the love of us to atone for our sins.
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Amen
I think those outside the Catholic Church of course love the Lord and are devoted to Him in the Word, but their understanding and free will take them only so far.
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We must all desire to grow in truth and understanding.
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Yes, there are all sorts of degrees of faith from individuals both in and outside the Catholic faith.
 
I am going backwards to your comments.

The Church is based on the teachings of Christ through the Apostles. And the Church affirms with St. Paul in Romans that mankind can perceive God through nature and reason. Confucius defined the 7 commands which dealt with one’s neighbor, but Revelation did not come to Confucius and other peoples of the world in defining who God is.

God chose the Hebrew people to begin the work of revealing Who He is.

Yes, it is the duty to perfect our faith in one another, and if one has excessive devotion to Mary, then so be it.

Yet you have to admit, the sects that are going about accusing Catholics of worshipping Mary likewise refuse to learn how Catholics worship. That is willful ignorance.

At Catholic worship on Resurrection Sunday we focus entirely on Christ. But you can go into some non mainline ecclesial communities and half of their construct of faith is anti-Catholic.

A good blog for evangelicals and others of like mind to go to is ‘Catholic in the Ozarks’. I completed reading the book of Shane Shaetzel that ID’s all the misconceptions being promoted by non-Catholics. I suggested our parish put a question and answer from his book every Sunday with suggestion that people keep and ponder them, especially the Hispanic immigrants who are being targeted.

The other point is that there are saints who say Mary’s role in salvation will become more evident and strong in the final conflict of good over evil, of Church vs anti-Church, and here I am referring to John Paul II, who had dedicated his entire pontificate to Mary.

I was in Fatima, and I speak Portuguese and worked with them in the foreign missions.

Likewise there is the issue of judging by appearances without knowing the intent.

Prayer services and devotions are not worship. But let them know points of what liturgy is and they totally ignore.

There are those out there who want to be anti this or that, irregardless of what you say and recent threads show that. I sound like a pharisee, but am very thankful that when I go to Mass on Sundays and week days the focus is on Jesus and not tearing down other Christians.
 
Cube,

If you want to learn how early Catholics worshipped, do a search on the explanation of what happens at Mass given us by St. Justin the Martyr, who explained to the Roman emperor what happens in our liturgies. He wrote the document in 154 AD and it explains the parts, tone and spirit of Mass in how worship was practiced throughout the entire ancient Christian world at that time, and the people were not having Bible reflections and studies.

The other issue I have personally found about those who claim we worship Mary is that they likewise refuse to study ancient Christian history of faith and practice. Many protestants are converting to Catholicism when they read early history. They find continuity of Scripture, liturgy, ecclesial administration, and the consistency of the Creed.

I would never trust leaving the Church to follow one man’s orientation but it is the thing here to do in this country.
 
KathleenGee said:
I am going backwards to your comments.

The Church is based on the teachings of Christ through the Apostles. And the Church affirms with St. Paul in Romans that mankind can perceive God through nature and reason. Confucius defined the 7 commands which dealt with one’s neighbor, but Revelation did not come to Confucius and other peoples of the world in defining who God is.

God chose the Hebrew people to begin the work of revealing Who He is.

Yes, it is the duty to perfect our faith in one another, and if one has excessive devotion to Mary, then so be it.

Yet you have to admit, the sects that are going about accusing Catholics of worshipping Mary likewise refuse to learn how Catholics worship. That is willful ignorance.

At Catholic worship on Resurrection Sunday we focus entirely on Christ. But you can go into some non mainline ecclesial communities and half of their construct of faith is anti-Catholic.

A good blog for evangelicals and others of like mind to go to is ‘Catholic in the Ozarks’. I completed reading the book of Shane Shaetzel that ID’s all the misconceptions being promoted by non-Catholics. I suggested our parish put a question and answer from his book every Sunday with suggestion that people keep and ponder them, especially the Hispanic immigrants who are being targeted.

The other point is that there are saints who say Mary’s role in salvation will become more evident and strong in the final conflict of good over evil, of Church vs anti-Church, and here I am referring to John Paul II, who had dedicated his entire pontificate to Mary.

I was in Fatima, and I speak Portuguese and worked with them in the foreign missions.

Likewise there is the issue of judging by appearances without knowing the intent.

Prayer services and devotions are not worship. But let them know points of what liturgy is and they totally ignore.

There are those out there who want to be anti this or that, irregardless of what you say and recent threads show that. I sound like a pharisee, but am very thankful that when I go to Mass on Sundays and week days the focus is on Jesus and not tearing down other Christians.
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Well explained post 👍

Im learning Brasilian portuguese now. Its tuff, but I look forward to working out some of the difference of what I think a true devotion to Mary should be with my mother in law. I have began to explain why her devotion to Mary is not entirely healthy because she does not confirm and balance her devotions to Mary with the Church Teachings and thus, Holy Spirit of our Lord.

The thread is ‘What is a devotion to Mary’

I’m glad you mentioned Pope JPII’s devotion to Mary. I don’t claim to understand the devotion to tribute everything done to her, though I’m not accussing the concept of being unhealthy. I recognize that there can be a deep, profound Godliness in doing so, under the everpresent awareness of the Assumption our Mother has in Christ’s heavenly power. Dwelling on and being lifted in Spirit by, her life in the gospel is holy when opening our hearts to the life and mission of Jesus.
 
KathleenGee said:
Cube,

If you want to learn how early Catholics worshipped, do a search on the explanation of what happens at Mass given us by St. Justin the Martyr, who explained to the Roman emperor what happens in our liturgies. He wrote the document in 154 AD and it explains the parts, tone and spirit of Mass in how worship was practiced throughout the entire ancient Christian world at that time, and the people were not having Bible reflections and studies.

The other issue I have personally found about those who claim we worship Mary is that they likewise refuse to study ancient Christian history of faith and practice. Many protestants are converting to Catholicism when they read early history. They find continuity of Scripture, liturgy, ecclesial administration, and the consistency of the Creed.

I would never trust leaving the Church to follow one man’s orientation but it is the thing here to do in this country.
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Kathleen,

Thank you for both of your posts! No, you do not sound like a Pharisee at all. 🙂
 
An excellent site that is accessed by many former Protestants, many of them seminarians, is called, www.calledtocommunion.com.

Here you can find how so many left protestantism to enter into the Church and into communion.

There is an article called, ‘Ecclessial Deists’. Here you see how Catholics believe Christ is big enough to found His Church, He the cornerstone, on the apostles. Peter was the weakest of them all and He chose him to be the head of the Church.

Irregardless of our weaknesses, the communion of saints intercepts all our individual weaknesses. That is because our faith in Christ makes us strong and love covers many sins.

Mary is the greatest of all saints. The more we understand our sinfulness in the Church through the sacraments, the outward signs of the grace of Jesus ministering to us, the more we come to understand Mary.
 
Cube…another book…‘Biblical Roots of the Mass’, by Tom Nash. ETWN has a series on this given by him and Fr Mendez. I want to have it also for our parish.

The bottom line is that traditional Christianity studied the Word of God in the context of ‘Word Made Flesh’…the Breaking of the Bread gives us the meaning of Scripture which is preceeded in the Liturgy of the Word.

Recall the visitation by Our Lord with the apostles on the Road to Emmaus and He said at one point,’ You still don’t understand!?’…when He broke bread with them, they then recognized Him and understood, and He disappeared.

We believe in the Word Made Flesh, the Living Presence of the Lord in the Eucharist gives us the right understanding of the Word. And the deeper we go in living His eternal life in the Eucharist, we cannot help but reflect on Mary who was the one who gave Christ His body and blood.
 
I am still Catholic, and will always be. I have a strong devotion to our Lady but do not worship her. If any Catholic ever says they worship Mary no longer are they Catholic.
 
So agree!

Back to RCWitness…you mention a relative that appears to you to have too much devotion to Mary.

Where I have seen this happen is when instead of worshipping Christ at Mass, one used to see people reciting their rosary beads.

You ask if the Church has done anything about excessive or superstitious like devotions. Vatican II removed some devotions that simply were not healthy in some cultures. I cannot think of any at the moment, there were to be no statues of Mary under the pulpit. That happened by those who wanted Mary to ‘magnify’ the proclamation of the Good News of Jesus Christ. Mary brings us closer to Jesus. But the placement of the statue at the altar was confusing and putting too much focus on Mary during the Mass and the Liturgy of the Word. There has been statements from the pulpit where we focus on Christ and we do not pray other prayers not relating to the Eucharistic Celebration. I don’t see anyone praying the rosary at Mass like I did in the 1950’s.

What followed Vatican II was the decree on ‘Mary Cultus’ that clearly defines veneration of Mary in tangible form so that non-Catholics who have been exposed to certain Christian sectarian perceptions will be avoided.

The other thought coming to my mind is you have to ask yourself what are the behaviors that person close to you is causing you have the impression of idol worship. I stayed in Rio de Janeiro at CENFI in 1975. It was the custom that those attending go to a Makumba, to see an African spiritualist meeting. Myself, an American Franciscan sister, and an Indonesian priest went out that night. (It was cancelled. We stayed after and prayed against all forms of idolatry when gazing at the Catholic saints statutes and other items used.)

I experienced the beautiful European Latin devotion to Mary which is based on her companionship.

In the Magnificat, Mary exclaimed before the Lord that her soul magnifies the Lord…she did not say ‘my soul praises the Lord’…she uses the word ‘magnify’. Mary’s entire being enlarges the Lord, she magnifies Him so we can see His will better. She is a great support and solace, the best companion one can have, in times of suffering. She fills the void of those who lost their own mothers. When she has answered a great and long suffering prayer through her intercession to the Lord, the response is tremendous acknowledgement of her work in heaven for us, for our families, for our societies.

I don’t think America has enough devotion to Mary and we are too much on the defensive of not expressing more. I think American women could be greatly helped in their feminine identity to develop a devotion to Mary.
 
This is in response to the original question.

I was brought up in the Church in the 60’s and 70’s, generally considered to be a time of poor catechesis.

Also, I was a child, so had a child’s understanding.

I do not believe the Church does or ever has taught or encourage worship of Mary.

However, we were taught that people worship things and even people other than God. Examples such as people worshipping money, sports heroes, their boyfriends or girlfriends, and pagans worshiping idols were often used.

People putting these things as greater importance than God, or by actions such as bowing down to, praying to, creating images of and behaving towards these images as if the image was important were given as examples that these things were worshiped.

If we kissed a poster we were said we were worshiping the person on the poster that such behavior was only ever appropriate for God and Jesus. That pagans did wrong to put crowns in their statues, or light candles, or bow and praise them. that that was worshiping.

So, with that having been taught to me, by nuns, in the Catholic school, and me having a child’s understanding and believing what I was taught to be true.

Yes, I believed that I was worshiping Mary.

Now, there is no need for people here to rush in and tell me I was not worshiping Mary because it is impossible to do so, because one can only ever worship God. Because I have read nearly 50 pages of that.

I am merely answering the original question via my own experience.

Now, I DO know what the Church teaches regarding Mary, and I an not arguing it.

But at the time I believed I was worshiping Mary.

I have no idea if any Catholic ever previously, now or ever in the future will think they are worshiping Mary. Or will ever, or can ever worship Mary.

But given what I was taught, and the ability of my mind to understand what was taking place, that was my experience.

Rituals and environment have a powerful effect on people, perhaps especially impressionable young ones. I don’t know how, given what I had been taught, and the fervor of devotion of those around me, as a child I could have experienced our May Crowning ceremonies to be anything other than worship. They were the most elaborate, and powerful rituals that took place in our parish Church.

They were given at least as much, if not more, attention and explanation than benediction or adoration, especially to the school children. It is not surprising that I misunderstood.

After reading this thread and the Catholic definitions of worship and veneration and being told it is impossible to worship Mary, then I must concede that it being impossible, I guess I never did it. But at the time I thought that was what I was doing.

But I did know that the Church teaches worship is only reserved for God/Jesus, and have never said that the Church teaches worship of Mary or Saints.

And honestly I never heard anyone of other religions claim Catholics worship plaster and plastic, they realize that Catholics are praying to saints/souls of Saints, etc, but they take task with the appropriateness of THAT practice. They know Catholics don’t think plaster is divine. That is a straw man that many threads waste a lot of hot air on.

I am not attacking any Catholic practice, nor questioning the appropriateness of it, only sharing my misunderstanding in childhood.

no need to spend many more pages defending anything for my benefit, I have no issue with the catechism of practices of veneration or devotion.
 
Thank you for your kind and honest sharing of your experience in those days, of which I was part of as well.

In those days I saw May as Mary’s month, it was celebrated as such with a procession for her and crowning her statue with flowers. I felt distant from her. I did not perceive worship but veneration and sweet thanksgiving for her son. But the image of the statue had her hands folded upward in prayer and her eyes downcast, so I saw Mary as very distant from me.

I remember sharing about her in the Holy Spirit in her relationship with Christ through the Eucharist to a friend before embarking overseas and was wondering how in the world did I find the words to say what I did…I cannot even remember what else…my friend does.

I found Mary in the missions among the sick and dying with Italian missionaries and loved their ordinary daily way of relating to her.

Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut, and God bless you…and welcome to CAF!
 
schaeffer said:
This is in response to the original question.

I was brought up in the Church in the 60’s and 70’s, generally considered to be a time of poor catechesis.

Also, I was a child, so had a child’s understanding.

I do not believe the Church does or ever has taught or encourage worship of Mary.

However, we were taught that people worship things and even people other than God. Examples such as people worshipping money, sports heroes, their boyfriends or girlfriends, and pagans worshiping idols were often used.

People putting these things as greater importance than God, or by actions such as bowing down to, praying to, creating images of and behaving towards these images as if the image was important were given as examples that these things were worshiped.

If we kissed a poster we were said we were worshiping the person on the poster that such behavior was only ever appropriate for God and Jesus. That pagans did wrong to put crowns in their statues, or light candles, or bow and praise them. that that was worshiping.

So, with that having been taught to me, by nuns, in the Catholic school, and me having a child’s understanding and believing what I was taught to be true.

Yes, I believed that I was worshiping Mary.

Now, there is no need for people here to rush in and tell me I was not worshiping Mary because it is impossible to do so, because one can only ever worship God. Because I have read nearly 50 pages of that.

I am merely answering the original question via my own experience.

Now, I DO know what the Church teaches regarding Mary, and I an not arguing it.

But at the time I believed I was worshiping Mary.

I have no idea if any Catholic ever previously, now or ever in the future will think they are worshiping Mary. Or will ever, or can ever worship Mary.

But given what I was taught, and the ability of my mind to understand what was taking place, that was my experience.

Rituals and environment have a powerful effect on people, perhaps especially impressionable young ones. I don’t know how, given what I had been taught, and the fervor of devotion of those around me, as a child I could have experienced our May Crowning ceremonies to be anything other than worship. They were the most elaborate, and powerful rituals that took place in our parish Church.

They were given at least as much, if not more, attention and explanation than benediction or adoration, especially to the school children. It is not surprising that I misunderstood.

After reading this thread and the Catholic definitions of worship and veneration and being told it is impossible to worship Mary, then I must concede that it being impossible, I guess I never did it. But at the time I thought that was what I was doing.

But I did know that the Church teaches worship is only reserved for God/Jesus, and have never said that the Church teaches worship of Mary or Saints.

And honestly I never heard anyone of other religions claim Catholics worship plaster and plastic, they realize that Catholics are praying to saints/souls of Saints, etc, but they take task with the appropriateness of THAT practice. They know Catholics don’t think plaster is divine. That is a straw man that many threads waste a lot of hot air on.

I am not attacking any Catholic practice, nor questioning the appropriateness of it, only sharing my misunderstanding in childhood.

no need to spend many more pages defending anything for my benefit, I have no issue with the catechism of practices of veneration or devotion.
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Thank you schaeffer for your detailed and honest response and welcome to CAF.

May I ask, as I have the other posters who also responded in the positive, did you, at this time, view the Eucharist as the real presence of Christ?

Peace!!!
 
Yes, I believed in Real Presence.

That was something they were very clear about in the teaching, and receiving of Communion was given proper gravity and respect, and the importance of a good confession so as to be a worthy vessel etc.
 
To maintain our faith in the Lord, we need to keep our eyes on Him and not on man. And to study our faith at our level.
 
Curious question for the Catholics here:

How does one worship a person, whether living or a saint?
 
dronald said:
Curious question for the Catholics here:

How does one worship a person, whether living or a saint?
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You shall love him with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind and him alone shall you serve and keep his commandments. 👍

Peace!!!
 
adf417 said:
You shall love him with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind and him alone shall you serve and keep his commandments. 👍

Peace!!!
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Thanks for the response, but that’s not what I meant.

What I’m asking is if I wrongly wanted to worship Mary or my wife, how would I go about doing so? What would be officially considered worship?
 
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