Former Mormon "de-conversion" stories

[Casslanpepci]

But, it is not the fault of LDS, they are followjng a man who claimed he had done more the Church than even Jesus Himself…

The correct quote is:

"Joseph Smith, the Prophet and Seer of the Lord, has done more, save Jesus only, for the salvation of men in this world, than any other man that ever lived in it” (D&C 135:3).
[Save in this instance means except {dictionary.com} ].

 

[RebeccaJ]

The correct quote is:

"Joseph Smith, the Prophet and Seer of the Lord, has done more, save Jesus only, for the salvation of men in this world, than any other man that ever lived in it” (D&C 135:3).
[Save in this instance means except {dictionary.com} ].

Sorry, your revisionist history doesn’t stand:

“I have more to boast of than any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such work as I” (History of the Church, Vol.6, pp. 408-09).

 

[sablouwho]

catholic-rcia is a former LDS who seems to have a focus on evangelizing LDS (he lives in UT).

I like his approach…very grateful for God leading him to truth. I agree to this. If it was easy, or hard, or had very strange moments (which we all have experienced)…it doesn’t really matter. It all pales in comparison to what God has given us.

At least, that is how I feel.

Thanks for clarifying, Rebecca.

Hopefully if Catholic-RCIA is still reading this thread he will be willing to share some of his thoughts about why/how he left the LDS.

 

[TheosisM]

The correct quote is:

"Joseph Smith, the Prophet and Seer of the Lord, has done more, save Jesus only, for the salvation of men in this world, than any other man that ever lived in it” (D&C 135:3).
[Save in this instance means except {dictionary.com} ].

That quote actually wasn’t said by Joseph Smith, but by John Taylor. RebeccaJ provided the quote that was being referred to by AtticusFinch. They are two different statements by two different people (Joseph Smith vs. John Taylor).

 

[RebeccaJ]

That quote actually wasn’t said by Joseph Smith, but by John Taylor. RebeccaJ provided the quote that was being referred to by AtticusFinch. They are two different statements by two different people (Joseph Smith vs. John Taylor).

The sad thing is, LDS don’t see anything wrong with this statement.

 

[Monica4316]

amazing stories praise God!

 

[Marie5890]

“I have more to boast of than any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such work as I” (History of the Church, Vol.6, pp. 408-09).

He was such a megalomaniac…Such delusions of grandeur.

 

[Casslanpepci]

“I have more to boast of than any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such work as I” (History of the Church, Vol.6, pp. 408-09).

The quote in which Joseph Smith boasts is an interesting one. To understand the issues, we must remember that firstly though he gave the sermon with this quote a month beore his death, it is not based on Joseph’s own writing; it is an account written after his death and secondly Joseph was using a scriptural passage by Paul, and applying it to his own situation–the idea of “boasting” was Paul’s, not Joseph’s.

"Joseph Smith was speaking tounge-in-cheek in a discourse and testimony against the dissenters at Nauvoo. He was speaking against the very people who had beaten, tarred, feathered, spit upon, and would ultimately kill him.

In so doing, he had just read Corinthians, chapter 11, in which the apostle Paul said “Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me. I say again, Let no man think me a fool; if otherwise, yet as a fool receive me, that I may boast myself a little. That which I speak, I speak it not after the Lord, but as it were foolishly, in this confidence of boasting. Seeing that many glory after the flesh, I will glory also…. Are they ministers of Christ (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labors more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft. In Damascus the governor under Aretas the king kept the city of the Damascenes with a garrison, desirous to apprehend me: And through a window in a basket was I let down by the wall, and escaped his hands.”

Understanding that this was Joseph’s introduction to the congregation puts his comments into perspective. Like Paul, he was asking the saints to “bear with him” in his “folly”, while he “boasted foolishly” about his “labors more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent”. His quoting of this passage was to provide the context that what he was about to say would not be “after the Lord, but as it were foolishly”, to “glory in the flesh”, as Paul had done. It was to mock the fools with foolishness, while making the point that no matter what they do to him, he would prevail.

Joseph did not say that he was greater than Jesus as has been claimed by those no of the church, but rather that he had done a greater work than Jesus. Was this blasphemy? Or fulfillment of a prophecy made by Jesus himself?

“I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do **even greater things than these, **because I am going to the Father” [John 14:12 NIV]

What was the greater work Jesus was referring to? Perhaps Jesus means a larger work, but it would certainly not be any more significant. For example, one can presume thatJohn the Baptist baptized more people than Jesus, Paul converted more as a missionary and Joseph Smith kept the Church together longer.

 

[why_me]

I was LDS. I was a missionary. I was in the Elder’s Quorum Presidency. I was in the Bishopric. I know how LDS feel about Joseph. They sing hymns to him. They “Praise the Man”. They say that Joseph is praying for them and that Joseph will help determine who is judsged.

That is far more than we expect of The Blessed Virgin. We ask Her to pray for us, much like LDS who are certain Joseph is praying for them.

Yeah…it is much the same…

I can’t say that the mormon praise the man although there is a hymn with such words that was written not long after Joseph was murdered. I have never heard a mormon say that JS is praying for them, nor do I know of any mormon who believes that Joseph will help determine who is judged. Although Brigham may have said something to that effect.

 

[why_me]

The quote in which Joseph Smith boasts is an interesting one. To understand the issues, we must remember that firstly though he gave the sermon with this quote a month beore his death, it is not based on Joseph’s own writing; it is an account written after his death and secondly Joseph was using a scriptural passage by Paul, and applying it to his own situation–the idea of “boasting” was Paul’s, not Joseph’s.

In so doing, he had just read Corinthians, chapter 11, in which the apostle Paul said “Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me. I say again, Let no man think me a fool; if otherwise, yet as a fool receive me, that I may boast myself a little. That which I speak, I speak it not after the Lord, but as it were foolishly, in this confidence of boasting. Seeing that many glory after the flesh, I will glory also…. Are they ministers of Christ (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labors more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft. In Damascus the governor under Aretas the king kept the city of the Damascenes with a garrison, desirous to apprehend me: And through a window in a basket was I let down by the wall, and escaped his hands.”

This has been explained to Rebecca and to others over and over again but they refuse to listen. It is not part of their dna to listen to the context. And so, they will continue to bring up this quotation because it works for them. Glad that you are here. More lds posters are needed to relieve Parker and Diana.

 

[why_me]

Sorry, your revisionist history doesn’t stand:

“I have more to boast of than any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such work as I” (History of the Church, Vol.6, pp. 408-09).

And of course, this quotation has been explained to you over and over again but to no avail. You continue to use it to score a point when you know the context of this quotation that was attributed to Joseph Smith.

 

[why_me]

The internet is increasing Mormons’ understanding of their church history and doctrine. The LDS Church is going to have to deal with the reality its members are going to become more and more skeptical of the LDS Church. It may have to come clean on some of the more unsavory parts of Joseph Smith’s life and teachings.

What unsavory parts of Joseph Smith’s life? The guy was a human being just like everyone else. No one expects perfection in former lds leaders or in present lds leaders. History is typically a human creation. Catholic history can also be a little troublesome as is protestant history too. Such is history made by human beings.

 

[adstrinity]

And of course, this quotation has been explained to you over and over again but to no avail. You continue to use it to score a point when you know the context of this quotation that was attributed to Joseph Smith.

I can’t see the correlation. Smith said he did more than all these others, even he did more than Jesus. I don’t see where St. Paul says that. I know that St. Paul was just quoted by the new LDS member (Welcome, Casslanpepci!), but, I don’t see where he said he was better than Adam or Jesus. I THINK I saw where he said he was boasting, but, please explain more the conection between what Smith said and this text. Thank you (to any Mormon or former objective Mormon).

 

[why_me]

Thanks for posting the hymn. It only proves what I have said.

But, it is not the fault of LDS, they are followjng a man who claimed he had done more the Church than even Jesus Himself…

A mormon wrote a hymn to Joseph Smith after he was brutally murdered. Emotions were running high and mormons were very sad about the murder of their beloved prophet. It is a great song that is sung with gusto. Joseph died for his faith in a land that claimed religious freedom. Mormons have a right to honor their first prophet in a song.

The boasting quotation has been explained many times to catholics on this forum but unfortunately, it doesn’t sink in. And that is unfortunate. I suppose the context of the quotation does not support their catholic and mormon critical belief system.

 

[why_me]

I can’t see the correlation. Smith said he did more than all these others, even he did more than Jesus. I don’t see where St. Paul says that. I know that St. Paul was just quoted by the new LDS member (Welcome, Casslanpepci!), but, I don’t see where he said he was better than Adam or Jesus. I THINK I saw where he said he was boasting, but, please explain more the conection between what Smith said and this text. Thank you (to any Mormon or former objective Mormon).

First, someone was taking notes about what Joseph Smith was saying. And so, the quotation is attributed to Joseph Smith but it is not clear that he actually said those words as recorded by the note taker.

Second, one would need to be there to get a sense of what was being said and why. The complete notes taken by the note taker would need to be looked at. One can not cherry pick a speech or notes to support a premise.

Third, his sermon was based on Paul’s boast.

Strange how a man can be judged by what may have been said in a brief moment.

 

[Vasian]

Tmaque,
I keep “leaving” this forum, having come here as it were by being led to find a place where people are getting a lot of mis-information even from the official part of what is said about LDS beliefs, let alone the blog threads, and finding that I could at least bring some balance and more light to people totally in the dark about LDS beliefs based on what they had as sources.

Considering your efforts, what can you say about X-Mormon Atticus Finch’s statements below?
*While in law school, I went to Palmyra during the time of the pageant. There were a lot of anti-LDS there. I debated with them. I decided I needed to study more to be a better apologist. The more I studied, the more I found stuff I could not accept. I could not accept the belief that God was once a sinful man (“as man is, God once was, as God is, man may become”.) I also found, in my studies, at least nine different versions of the “First Vision”. There were incredible differences in the versions. How could someone who had such an expereince as God visiting them forget so much that he could not rmember how old he was, who appeared, what was said, etc.?

Then there was the Temple. I discovered that the temple ceremony Joseph came up with he miraculously came up with shortly after learning the Masonic Temple ceremony…and they are almost exactly alike.

Then there was the polygamy. How he was caught with Fanny Alger and suddenly came up with idea that God wanted men to have several wives.

Then there was the Textus Receptus. That seemed to slice holes into the Book of Mormon.*

 

[catholic-rcia]

It is a little unclear to me from your post…were you ever a Mormon? If so, could you perhaps share with us why you left that faith?

I went to the lds church until I was twelve, I went with my grandmother. She taught Primary. I quit going because when I asked my grandfather why he did not go with us he told me he was not good enough. This is true… If he was not good enough nobody was good enough, even me.

30 years later I found Christ’s true church.
My testimony as to why I never became Mormon can be read here under “if only my parents knew God”
utahmission.com/pages/Forgive.html

 

[catholic-rcia]

catholic-rcia is a former LDS who seems to have a focus on evangelizing LDS (he lives in UT).

I like his approach…very grateful for God leading him to truth. I agree to this. If it was easy, or hard, or had very strange moments (which we all have experienced)…it doesn’t really matter. It all pales in comparison to what God has given us.

At least, that is how I feel.

I do love evangelization, what I love the most is giving tours of our Church to the LDS. Because I know what they have been told, I know it’s not what they hear when they come in. They get truth period when they come in. The Crucifix and Confession is what I speak about, my two posts you might say. I love to point out the fact that we all stand in this line together, even our Priest, our Bishops, Mother Teresa when she was alive and yes the Pope. That we can see each other in this line together.

As to the Crucifix ours is big and it is very real looking. I asked a young LDS women’s group how it makes them feel about 2 weeks ago. One said “depressed” then another spoke up and said “it should” That was really neat! Then I spoke about it saying. This is the tree of life in the middle of the garden, that the fruit of the tree is Jesus. They then ask questions about that so I get to answer, to explain etc… then I get to tell them that this Crucifix in our Church, in our homes represents Gods love for us, how much we are worth in His eyes, that is represents victory over sin and death, over Satan himself. That is represents forgiveness and reconciliation, that when you receive Communion it helps to remember why we are receiving.

If you do not have tours at your Parish start doing it. I have everything you need. But the most beautiful time spent with the LDS is in our Blessed Sacrament Chapel. We go in and just remain silent for about 2 minutes. I believe they really like this and they really get to feel the spirit of Christ. Yes I love it here in Utah…I have a love for the LDS People.

Rich
www.utahmission.com

 

[why_me]

I went to the lds church until I was twelve, I went with my grandmother. She taught Primary. I quit going because when I asked my grandfather why he did not go with us he told me he was not good enough. This is true… If he was not good enough nobody was good enough, even me.

This was your grandfather’s own personal opinion but it shared by many people of various faiths.

There are some people /and this may not include your grandfather) who do not want to be hypocrites by attending church if they know that they do not live a godly life. For some, they do not want to cheat god.

But in the end, this was your grandfather’s own personal opinion. No where is it stated in the lds church that only perfect people are welcomed.

 

[why_me]

I do love evangelization, what I love the most is giving tours of our Church to the LDS. Because I know what they have been told, I know it’s not what they hear when they come in. They get truth period when they come in. The Crucifix and Confession is what I speak about, my two posts you might say. I love to point out the fact that we all stand in this line together, even our Priest, our Bishops, Mother Teresa when she was alive and yes the Pope. That we can see each other in this line together.

As to the Crucifix ours is big and it is very real looking. I asked a young LDS women’s group how it makes them feel about 2 weeks ago. One said “depressed” then another spoke up and said “it should” That was really neat! Then I spoke about it saying. This is the tree of life in the middle of the garden, that the fruit of the tree is Jesus. They then ask questions about that so I get to answer, to explain etc… then I get to tell them that this Crucifix in our Church, in our homes represents Gods love for us, how much we are worth in His eyes, that is represents victory over sin and death, over Satan himself. That is represents forgiveness and reconciliation, that when you receive Communion it helps to remember why we are receiving.

So, you are actively trying to convert the lds to the catholic faith in Utah? Strange, because on this forum the lds church is often accused of leading catholics to the lds through their missionary effort. It just goes to show that all churches are trying to recruit new members.

Although the crucifx does show Christ’s love for us since he did die for our sins, it is also a sign of his death. For mormons, the resurection is important. Many protestant churches do not use the crucified Christ on the cross.