Former Mormon "de-conversion" stories

[Michael_Vernon]

Mormons are not the only protestants who have an aversion to the Sign of the Cross. All of them who dislike it will give you various reasons which seem perfectly understandable to them. But the interesting thing is to ask people who love The Cross why they adore it. The Apostle Paul said that they were determined to preach nothing but Christ Crucified. Because that is The Message that Saves! Those whose religions are centered around a lot of other stuff, including a lot of other good stuff, emphasize The Cross less and less. Focus on Jesus Crucified long enough and you will begin to feel either disinterest or overwhelming, grateful love for the God who bore all of your sins in His own Body on The Tree.

 

[Mike_Reed]

Lets see what the MADites will say about it. It is difficult to discuss it on a forum. Maybe there will be a Maxwell paper on it or a FARMS paper on your thesis. Lets hope so.

Maybe. All of those from MADb and FAIR, who have either read my thesis or attended my Sunstone presentation, have spoken positively about my research.

 

[why_me]

Mormons are not the only protestants who have an aversion to the Sign of the Cross. All of them who dislike it will give you various reasons which seem perfectly understandable to them. But the interesting thing is to ask people who love The Cross why they adore it. The Apostle Paul said that they were determined to preach nothing but Christ Crucified.

That doesn’t change the fact that the early christians used the fish as a symbol for their belief. Now one reason for this could be that the crucifix was too close to home as people were still being crucified under Roman law. To have the cross as a symbol for their belief when people were still being crucified might have seemed perverse. Not to mention unjust since some of those people crucified were probably innocent.

 

[why_me]

The early Christians apparently revered the crucifix:

This doesn’t mean that they accepted the cross as their symbol since the fish was used. Now there are some theories why the fish was used but I would think that the cross would still seem a little perverse since crucifixtions were still continuing. It would be a symbol of death for many of the christians.

I think that the cross with the corpus came much later.

 

[why_me]

Maybe. All of those from MADb and FAIR, who have either read my thesis or attended my Sunstone presentation, have spoken positively about my research.

My only concern with your thesis was the perhaps overlooking of european protestant influence among the mormons as more and more european protestant converts were heading to america. In scandinavia, catholicism was looked upon rather negatively since they tended to go with luther. And it was no different with other luthern countries. In fact, finland was catholic until the reformation when the country was forced into luthernism. And anglicanism was not very friendly toward catholicism for obvious reasons.

And my other concern is your stress on mormonism being anticatholic. But I would contend that within mormonism there were protestant converts who brought into their new faith the same negative attitude toward catholicism that they had in their european protestant belief. How many catholics were settling Missouri, Ohio and Illinois at the time the mormons were there? Not many, I think.

 

[Mike_Reed]

My only concern with your thesis was the perhaps overlooking of european protestant influence among the mormons as more and more european protestant converts were heading to america. In scandinavia, catholicism was looked upon rather negatively since they tended to go with luther. And it was no different with other luthern countries. In fact, finland was catholic until the reformation when the country was forced into luthernism.

But having never read my thesis, you can’t know if your observation fits the evidence or affects my argument.

And my other concern is your stress on mormonism being anticatholic. But I would contend that within mormonism there were protestant converts who brought into their new faith the same negative attitude toward catholicism that they had in their protestant belief.

And I make this point explicit in my thesis. You are raising concerns, without even knowing if your concerns are valid.

 

[RebeccaJ]

This doesn’t mean that they accepted the cross as their symbol since the fish was used. Now there are some theories why the fish was used but I would think that the cross would still seem a little perverse since crucifixtions were still continuing. It would be a symbol of death for many of the christians.

I think that the cross with the corpus came much later.

Christians used the cross, it was a defining symbol that was disguised, as being Christian meant incurring a death penalty. Pagans making fun of Christians called them people who revered a cross.

Very early, along with the fish symbol, the cross was disguised as an anchor, a trident, a ships mast or the chi-ro (which Constantine used to lead his army).

After the persecutions ended in the early part of the 4th century, the use of the cross became more public and prevalent.

This site has good archaeological examples.

 

[Mike_Reed]

Christians used the cross, it was a defining symbol that was disguised, as being Christian meant incurring a death penalty. Pagans making fun of Christians called them people who revered a cross.

Very early, along with the fish symbol, the cross was disguised as an anchor, a trident, a ships mast or the chi-ro (which Constantine used to lead his army).

After the persecutions ended in the early part of the 4th century, the use of the cross became more public and prevalent.

This site has good archaeological examples.

I agree. Early Christians also avoided overtly depicting the cross because there was concern that doing so might be in violation of the 2nd commandment. They therefore got around this reservation, as well as the other ones you mentioned, by looking for the manifestation of the cross in the world around them. I have argued this in my thesis’ appendix, which will also appear in my book.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I agree. Early Christians also avoided overtly depicting the cross because there was concern that doing so might be in violation of the 2nd commandment. They therefore got around this reservation, as well as the other ones you mentioned, by looking for the manifestation of the cross in the world around them. I have argued this in my thesis’ appendix, which will also appear in my book.

How changed is your book compared to your thesis?

 

[Mike_Reed]

How changed is your book compared to your thesis?

Hi RebeccaJ.
The general argument is the same, but I have made (and continue to make) quite a few changes, correcting minor errors, improving grammar, strengthening various points of argument, etc. I will also include an entirely new chapter on attitudes toward the cross among the other mormon factions.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Hi RebeccaJ.
The general argument is the same, but I have made (and continue to make) quite a few changes, correcting minor errors, improving grammar, strengthening various points of argument, etc. I will also include an entirely new chapter on attitudes toward the cross among the other mormon factions.

Sounds like a good addition.