former Pentcostals?

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Katholikos:
Here are a few:
The definition of “church.” The denial of the Real Presence and belief in symbolic communion. Belief that the Bible consists of 66 writings, not 73. Belief that only baptism by immersion is valid. Belief in Millenialism. Belief that “Baptism in the Holy Spirit” is required, separate from water baptism, and that lack of glossolalia (speaking in “tongues”) is a sign that a person has not received the Spirit. Belief in the Rapture as originally taught by John Nelson Darby.

Pentecostalism was born in 1901 in Kansas, founded by Charles Parham, a Methodist minister. I’ve listed some of the Assembly Of God beliefs. The AOG was organized in 1914 in Hot Springs, Arkansas.

Peace be with you,
JMJ Jay
All modern Pentacostals can trace their history back to Azuza Street. A revival which broke out in the early 1900s. Parham was not part of that revival — he had issues of whites and blacks worshipping and dancing together.
Azuza Street is indebted to the Welsh Revival for its startup.
These were men and women who believed God had more than what they had known in wtheir past.
The Shakers and the Quakers were Holy Spirit filled----the Spirit caused them to quake and shake.
All throughout Christiandom there has been times of unusual Holy Spirit activity-------to awaken Gods people and empower them to do His work.
I realize this doesnt fit nicely into your theology however God has His own agenda.
 
This is the problem with anyone that follows a “works” based religion. They find Christ through or in a ritual or in the bread or the juice of communion. This is clearly against scriptural teaching.

Where is Christ? In Acts 2:38 Peter said “repent and be baptized and you will receive the gift of the HG.” Paul said in 1 Cor 3:16 that “you are the temple of God and His Spirit dwells in you.” Christ is not in the bread, the juice, the rituals, the crucifix statue, the pews, the communion table, pictures on the wall, etc… Christ is in YOU.

Taking the Eucharist doesn’t give you Christ. When you obey Christ, realize you need Him, repent of your sins, and get baptized you get Christ.

Works based religions get the “expression of Christ” and “Christ” confused. Pentecostals say if you ain’t jumped and shouted you don’t have Christ. The jumping and shouting is the “expression of Christ.” Catholics say if you don’t have solemn reverence you don’t have Christ. The solemn reverence is an “expression of Christ.”

Rituals provoke feelings. We get these feelings and Christ confused. Then we run around talking about how folks ain’t in the right church.
 
Uncle Abee:
This is the problem with anyone that follows a “works” based religion. They find Christ through or in a ritual or in the bread or the juice of communion. This is clearly against scriptural teaching.

Where is Christ? In Acts 2:38 Peter said “repent and be baptized and you will receive the gift of the HG.” Paul said in 1 Cor 3:16 that “you are the temple of God and His Spirit dwells in you.” Christ is not in the bread, the juice, the rituals, the crucifix statue, the pews, the communion table, pictures on the wall, etc… Christ is in YOU.

Taking the Eucharist doesn’t give you Christ. When you obey Christ, realize you need Him, repent of your sins, and get baptized you get Christ.

Works based religions get the “expression of Christ” and “Christ” confused. Pentecostals say if you ain’t jumped and shouted you don’t have Christ. The jumping and shouting is the “expression of Christ.” Catholics say if you don’t have solemn reverence you don’t have Christ. The solemn reverence is an “expression of Christ.”

Rituals provoke feelings. We get these feelings and Christ confused. Then we run around talking about how folks ain’t in the right church.
I don’t know what works based religion you are talking about unless you mean faith and works.

As scripture says:
James 2:14-20 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Do you think that Catholics believe that Christ is in the crucifix,statues, the pews, the alter,or the pictures on the wall? That is very insulting.

Taking the Eucharist doesn’t give you Christ Really? That’s not what the Bible says
John 6:48-57 I am that bread of life.Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

Jesus gave us the means:
Luke 22:17-19 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves: For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come. And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

You need to study all of scripture not just the parts that suit your purpose.
 
Also raises hand<
😃 <I’m actually a pretty recent convert – I’ll have been Catholic 2 years this coming Easter. I was raised Southern Baptist; the church slowly morphed into a very Pentacostal-holy roller kind of place … Yep, all the laughing, tongues, rolling down the aisles stuff – the thing is it seemed normal to me at the time and yet I was embarassed to take friends to church with me as a teen – worried that something strange would happen and I simply wasn’t prepared to explain any of it …

And I was very active in the church they just didn’t equip us …

At 18 I started dating my now husband and all the things I’d been told about how “bad” Catholics were started to unravel … Here he was this good Godly young man, with a splendid family I couldn’t wait to be a part of, and my church expected me to believe they were so wrong there was a good chance they were all going to Hell …

So I took a harder look … we got married after college and I started attending Catholic services … 3 kids later I finally decided to convert! It seemed the Catholic church was good enough for my kids, my husband, my in-laws *, my grandparents, it had to be good enough for me! But even THAT process took me a few tries … I really needed to be sure of what I was getting myself into and I’m still deprograming in a lot of ways …

Now that I’m here, now that I finally feel complete in my church home I’m relieved!

Anyhow – my entire family is still very Pentacostal Holy roller-ish [they call it “non-denominational” now] and I visit their church on rare occasions because, well, they like it, and I don’t feel like I did when I was a child … I feel the need to get up there and set the record straight a lot of the time! I feel like I’m being judged harshly some of the time, but mostly I just feel like they’re doing what THEY feel is right. I don’t necessarily agree with their version of faith and truth but I do think they’re doing what they can with what they’ve been given and I merely wish I could let them see where I’ve gone to through my eyes …

but I can’t and it took me YEARS and a desire to change before I came to this point … so I don’t see my words doing anything … maybe my actions … perhaps a well timed conversation … so I wait, I pray and I love them where they are because there’s not much else I can do …

In the end I’m certain they feel they are doing the right thing as surely as I feel I’m doing the right thing and I try my hardest to not let my faith come between me and the people I love.*
 
Uncle Abee:
This is the problem with anyone that follows a “works” based religion. They find Christ through or in a ritual or in the bread or the juice of communion. This is clearly against scriptural teaching.

Works based religions get the “expression of Christ” and “Christ” confused. .
Someone has apparently told you, either personally or you’ve read it, that Catholics believe they can work their way into heaven. This is a fallacy. Catholicism is not a 'works based religion.’ Works salvation was condemned as a heresy at the Council of Orange in 529 and again at the Council of Trent, 1545-73.

We’re not confused. Protestants are, who are so distant from the teaching of the Apostles that they have “interpreted” thousands of different answers to the same questions from the Scriptures. I searched for first-century Christianity and found it in the Catholic Church. There is no teaching in the NT as clear as the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, and it is confirmed in the Faith of the early Christians.

The teaching of the Catholic Church and its history are so readily available, it is offensive that you perpetuate these myths about what we believe instead of simply checking to see whether or not they’re true.
 
posted by Katholikos
Here are a few:
The definition of “church.” The denial of the Real Presence and belief in symbolic communion. Belief that the Bible consists of 66 writings, not 73. Belief that only baptism by immersion is valid. Belief in Millenialism. Belief that “Baptism in the Holy Spirit” is required, separate from water baptism, and that lack of glossolalia (speaking in “tongues”) is a sign that a person has not received the Spirit. Belief in the Rapture as originally taught by John Nelson Darby.
Pentecostalism was born in 1901 in Kansas, founded by Charles Parham, a Methodist minister. I’ve listed some of the Assembly Of God beliefs. The AOG was organized in 1914 in Hot Springs, Arkansas.
Peace be with you,
JMJ Jay
How is this different than many other Protestant denominations that the Pope tells us are our separated Brethren? Or do you think separated Brethren only applies to those denominations like Lutheran? :confused:

Your sister in Christ,
Maria
 
Taking the Eucharist does not give you Christ. Paul says in Romans 6:3 - *
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ
  • were baptized into his death? Peter says in Acts 2:38 - (summary) *Repent and be baptized and you will receive the HG. *
No place in scriptures does it say you receive Christ by taking communion. John 6:53 does say -
Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
This makes communion a vital part of worship but it does not say this is how you get Christ. It goes on and says in vs 56 -
He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
The scripture is telling you how to dwell or remain in Him not how to get in Him.

The same as in Luke 13:3 Christ says if you don’t repent you will perish. This does not mean if you repent you will get Christ.

Baptism is how we recieve Christ. Once Christ is in you He’s there to stay. Communion is our response to being saved. It is a commandment of Christ. We will perish if we don’t observe it. That is why folks who aren’t in Christ aren’t allowed communion. Communion is for Christians. It is a part of worship. If you can receive Christ through communion then non-Christians can be saved by taking it. This would contradict Peter’s words on salvation in Acts 2:38.

Catholics say Christ is in the bread and taking the bread affects your salvation. The bread is only allowed to be given to you by the priest…right? You or another regular brother can’t administer the bread…can you? If there is no priest you can’t get the bread…right? This means your salvation is now dependant on a man (the priest). The bible tells me my salvation is dependant on God.

Christ is not in the Eucharist. He is in you when you become a Christian. Communion as a commandment is one way you keep Him in you. It is how you continue to stay in His presence.
 
Right now I am attending a Pentacostal affiliated college, and boy is it rough!! We have to go to chapel on Wed and Friday’s and it is so hard for me to just sit there week after week. The first time I had been I was amazed! It was so different from what I was used to, and it was akward. I do enjoy some services dont get me wrong…I do like some of the music and the speakers are ok, but I love when I get to attend my church on Sunday…I feel like Im at home and I love that feeling. The only hard part about being here though is that I have to defend my faith day afte day and it gets frustrating sometimes but I do get through to some people and that is always worth it.
 
Uncle Abee:
Taking the Eucharist does not give you Christ. Paul says in Romans 6:3 - Peter says in Acts 2:38 - (summary) *Repent and be baptized and you will receive the HG. *

No place in scriptures does it say you receive Christ by taking communion. John 6:53 does say - This makes communion a vital part of worship but it does not say this is how you get Christ. It goes on and says in vs 56 - The scripture is telling you how to dwell or remain in Him not how to get in Him.

If there is no priest you can’t get the bread…right? This means your salvation is now dependant on a man (the priest). The bible tells me my salvation is dependant on God.

Christ is not in the Eucharist. He is in you when you become a Christian. Communion as a commandment is one way you keep Him in you. It is how you continue to stay in His presence.
My salvation is NOT dependant on a priest, it is dependant on God. You ignorance of Catholic doctrine shows in your rediculous claims. This is not and either/or. I’m sure you are aware Catholics are baptized, and in emergencies anyone can baptize if it’s done in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. As far as your interpretation of scripture (John 6), a very convient twist to fit your set of beliefs - not buying it. You totally do not understand the Eucharist.

If you can receive Christ through communion then non-Christians can be saved by taking it. No, look at 1st Corinthians

1 Cor 11:26-29. For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord’s death till he come.
Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body.

So if the Eucharist is just “bread and juice” how could eating it effect our salvation. Again, all of scripture not just parts that suit your purpose.
 
Uncle Abee:
Taking the Eucharist does not give you Christ. . . Catholics say Christ is in the bread and taking the bread affects your salvation. The bread is only allowed to be given to you by the priest…right? You or another regular brother can’t administer the bread…can you? If there is no priest you can’t get the bread…right? This means your salvation is now dependant on a man (the priest). The bible tells me my salvation is dependant on God.
Any Catholic may be delegated by the bishop to administer Holy Communion. Only a duly ordained priest, in direct succession from the Apostles who have shared their authority with him and others down through the ages, can confect the Eucharist.
Christ is not in the Eucharist. He is in you when you become a Christian. Communion as a commandment is one way you keep Him in you. It is how you continue to stay in His presence.
For 2,000 years, the Catholic Church has been teaching that Christ is present in the Eucharist. The Apostles believed it and taught it to the Church. St. Paul believed it: “The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ?” 1 Cor 10:16. The first Christians believed that Christ’s Real Presence was in the Eucharist, as we know from the historical record. Why don’t you?

Let me tell you. You’re interpreting the NT out of its context. It was written by the teaching Church, and must be read within the context of her teachings to be rightly understood.

The NT came out of the Church, not vice versa.

JMJ Jay
 
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dscalera:
Right now I am attending a Pentacostal affiliated college, and boy is it rough!! We have to go to chapel on Wed and Friday’s and it is so hard for me to just sit there week after week. The first time I had been I was amazed! It was so different from what I was used to, and it was akward. I do enjoy some services dont get me wrong…I do like some of the music and the speakers are ok, but I love when I get to attend my church on Sunday…I feel like Im at home and I love that feeling. The only hard part about being here though is that I have to defend my faith day afte day and it gets frustrating sometimes but I do get through to some people and that is always worth it.
Wow – why a Pentecostal college? My sympathy. They’ll be working double-time to try to pull you out of the Catholic Church, throwing Bible verses at you like bullets, trying to shoot a hole in your Faith. Don’t let 'em deceive you. Remember the words of Ignatius, student of St. John the Apostle, in 107 A.D.: “Where Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.”

I’ll remember you at prayer. Keep the faith.

JMJ Jay
 
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MariaG:
How is this different than many other Protestant denominations that the Pope tells us are our separated Brethren? Or do you think separated Brethren only applies to those denominations like Lutheran? :confused:

Your sister in Christ,
Maria
Maria, you asked me specifically what “different” doctrines I was referring to when I wrote these words:

“Since the Holy Spirit in Pentecostalism is believed to teach to one thing and the Holy Spirit in Catholicism quite another, they both can’t be true. One or the other is mistaken.”

I simply enumerated some of the differences in Pentecostal and Catholic belief, as you requested.

As to your present Q, my answer is, No, I do not believe that the term “separated brethren” applies only to Lutherans. Yes, Pentecostals, too, have part of the Truth of God’s revelation and are our brothers and sisters. I haven’t implied that they aren’t.

Everyone in the world – every human who has ever lived or will live – is related to every other human. We are all true brothers and sisters – not only because the Church says so, but because science says so.

Peace be with you.

Jay Damien
 
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Xavier:
All modern Pentacostals can trace their history back to Azuza Street. A revival which broke out in the early 1900s. Parham was not part of that revival — he had issues of whites and blacks worshipping and dancing together.
Azuza Street is indebted to the Welsh Revival for its startup.
These were men and women who believed God had more than what they had known in wtheir past.
The Shakers and the Quakers were Holy Spirit filled----the Spirit caused them to quake and shake.
All throughout Christiandom there has been times of unusual Holy Spirit activity-------to awaken Gods people and empower them to do His work.
I realize this doesnt fit nicely into your theology however God has His own agenda.
The origin of Pentecostalism rests with Charles Parham, a Methodist minister in the Holiness tradition, and 40 of his students at a Bible school he opened in Topeka, Kansas. They studied the “baptism of the Holy Spirit,” in which Parham was a staunch believer. On January 1, 1901, Miss Agnes Ozman was the first student to “speak in tongues,” though Parham and other students followed. He and his students spread the Pentecostal revival (it has occurred sporadically thoughout history) throughout the South and Southwest. The Azuza Street movement was later, in 1906.

I have no problem with the Pentecostal style of worship within the Catholic Church (so called Charasmatic Catholics). I participated in a Charismatic prayer meeting for several years. What I object to are “churches” that claim to be led by the Spirit to different beliefs, apart from the Church founded by Christ for the salvation of the world.

Jesus Christ, the God-Man, didn’t leave us a book; He left us a Church. Christ founded only one Church and appointed His Apostles as the leaders and teachers of it. All other churches are man-made.

JMJ Jay
Ex-Southern Baptist, ex-agnostic, ex-atheist, ecstatic to be Catholic!
 
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Katholikos:
The origin of Pentecostalism rests with Charles Parham, a Methodist minister in the Holiness tradition, and 40 of his students at a Bible school he opened in Topeka, Kansas. They studied the “baptism of the Holy Spirit,” in which Parham was a staunch believer. On January 1, 1901, Miss Agnes Ozman was the first student to “speak in tongues,” though Parham and other students followed. He and his students spread the Pentecostal revival (it has occurred sporadically thoughout history) throughout the South and Southwest. The Azuza Street movement was later, in 1906.
The Christian Union, which later became the Church of God (Cleveland, Tenn.) was formed in 1886 in the Appalaichians as a holiness reaction to creeping modernism in the “big-name” denominations. They experienced wide-spread pentecostal phenomena starting 10 years later, in 1896. These phenomena were recorded in their written histories; however, since they didn’t happen on the Left Coast or in a big city, even today people don’t realize where the pentecostal revival in the U.S. started.

DaveBj
 
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