Former Priests

[Daizies]

OK. But maybe you should include the fact that these young 25 26 year old sheltered men are actually human. You accept married priests but are unwilling to forgive that is really sad, and possibly unchristian

I’ve met several seminarians and they sure don’t seem sheltered to me. Some have even dated prior to starting at the seminary, before they began discerning a call to the priesthood.

 

[Jimmygill88]

I’ve met several seminarians and they sure don’t seem sheltered to me. Some have even dated prior to starting at the seminary, before they began discerning a call to the priesthood.

And I’m pleased to hear that but it wasn’t true in the 60s and 70s and I think these generations who have departed the most. I would be very wary of accepting someone into a seminary who hadn’t dated or interacted in a meaningful way with peers before embarking on their studies. But I think you are right in what you say. And thank God for it

 

[Corki]

Good points. However my understanding of the priestly vocation is that we must believe that they were really called by God. Surely a return would indicate an acceptance of that original call.

But what about the wife? By this token, a wish to return would indicate an acceptance of the original call and a refutation of the “side trip” into the married vocation.

Many left without dispensation because Pope JP II wouldn’t give dispensations.

If they asked, were turned down, and still left, they have real issues with authority. Blessed Pope John Paul II granted many dispensations; he just wasn’t as free with them as some of his predecessors may have been.

But all that aside we should remember that there are thousands of validly ordained men in the world and we are asking lay people to conduct prayer meetings and distribute viaticum in the absence of a priest. Even if not celebrating mass or hearing confession surely distributing communion, marriage and baptism could be a useful and fulfilling role for us and them

It’s not important what is a 'fullfilling role" for them – only what is good for the Church. I know some former priests who have received permission to be EMHCs or catechists. Marriages can be witnessed by lay people in certain extreme circumstances (such as lack of a priest or deacon) so, if the former priest was in one of those locales, I think he might be a reasonable candidate for that function. However, most of these former priests do not live in remote locales without any priests of deacons nor have I seen any movement of former priests asking to be sent to such. Many of those former priests are right here in the US where we are still fortunate to have access to clergy - though maybe not as conveniently as before.

 

[maryjk]

Well I imagine many of them wouldn’t dream of asking to come back knowing how unforgiving and lacking in trust good catholic congregations can be

Are you married? If so, how many times could your wife cheat before you would have a problem trusting her? Or could she sleep around all over town because she knew you would forgive and forget?

 

[Jimmygill88]

But what about the wife? By this token, a wish to return would indicate an acceptance of the original call and a refutation of the “side trip” into the married vocation.

If they asked, were turned down, and still left, they have real issues with authority. Blessed Pope John Paul II granted many dispensations; he just wasn’t as free with them as some of his predecessors may have been.

It’s not important what is a 'fullfilling role" for them – only what is good for the Church. I know some former priests who have received permission to be EMHCs or catechists. Marriages can be witnessed by lay people in certain extreme circumstances (such as lack of a priest or deacon) so, if the former priest was in one of those locales, I think he might be a reasonable candidate for that function. However, most of these former priests do not live in remote locales without any priests of deacons nor have I seen any movement of former priests asking to be sent to such. Many of those former priests are right here in the US where we are still fortunate to have access to clergy - though maybe not as conveniently as before.

I think the point I am making is why can’t they begin their ministry again WITH their wives in the same way that the Anglican convert priests are allowed. I’m delighted that you rejoice in an adequate number of clergy as many parts of the world do not. And why you would prefer a lay person to preside over a wedding rather than an ordained clergyman is quite beyond me.

 

[jpjd]

You are proposing a scenario in which a man becomes a priest, decides he wants to be married instead, leaves the priesthood and marries, then decides he wants to be a priest again and so becomes a married priest. Really. That’s called a loophole, and it makes a mockery of ordination to the priesthood.

The Church can not have priests jumping back and forth between clerical and lay states of life. Your scenario reminds me of an idea I read about once where it was suggested that the priesthood come with term limits. A man could serve, say 3 years as a priest. If he wanted to renew, he could; or if he wanted to leave, such as to get married, he could.

What you have with this idea is the priesthood as a job, not a vocation.

 

[Jimmygill88]

Are you married? If so, how many times could your wife cheat before you would have a problem trusting her? Or could she sleep around all over town because she knew you would forgive and forget?

I’m afraid logic has now completely deserted you.

 

[Jimmygill88]

You are proposing a scenario in which a man becomes a priest, decides he wants to be married instead, leaves the priesthood and marries, then decides he wants to be a priest again and so becomes a married priest. Really. That’s called a loophole, and it makes a mockery of ordination to the priesthood.

The Church can not have priests jumping back and forth between clerical and lay states of life. Your scenario reminds me of an idea I read about once where it was suggested that the priesthood come with term limits. A man could serve, say 3 years as a priest. If he wanted to renew, he could; or if he wanted to leave, such as to get married, he could.

What you have with this idea is the priesthood as a job, not a vocation.

But we willingly accept Anglicans through a different loophole. I merely question the underlying logic or is it intransigence? I don’t know

 

[maryjk]

I’m afraid logic has now completely deserted you.

No, I simply don’t agree with you, and you have run out of arguments so now you are attacking the messenger.

Don’t worry it happens all of the time around here. We get used to it.

 

[Jimmygill88]

No, I simply don’t agree with you, and you have run out of arguments so now you are attacking the messenger.

Don’t worry it happens all of the time around here. We get used to it.

You are (again) quite incorrect. However you seem to want debate on a level I am unused to.

 

[Corki]

I think the point I am making is why can’t they begin their ministry again WITH their wives in the same way that the Anglican convert priests are allowed.

Because they have demonstrated that they do not have the personality or psychological stamina to commit to a vocation. They first promised to be celibate preists - then changed their minds. Then they sought to be married men living outside the clerical state - then changed their minds AGAIN. The same is not true of the Anglican priests who convert. These men remained true to their vocation even through a conversion of faith.

I’m delighted that you rejoice in an adequate number of clergy as many parts of the world do not.

But, as I pointed out, most of those parts of the world without adequate numbers of clergy do not have a lot of former priests either. Sending a married man out to a remote location is even more problematic. However, I think it’s a moot point. As we see from groups like Rent-a-priest, these men generally are not looking to help out in the areas of need but rather find a way to have thier cake and eat it too from the comfort of sububia.

And why you would prefer a lay person to preside over a wedding rather than an ordained clergyman is quite beyond me.

Once a priest is returned to the lay state, he is the same functionally as any other lay person except when it comes to hearing Confessions at the time of one’s death. It’s not a preference, it’s an equivalency.

 

[maryjk]

There speaks a true humanitarian sigh

I’m afraid logic has now completely deserted you.

No, I simply don’t agree with you, and you have run out of arguments so now you are attacking the messenger.

Don’t worry it happens all of the time around here. We get used to it.

You are (again) quite incorrect. However you seem to want debate on a level I am unused to.

 

[peace2u2]

I’ve met several seminarians and they sure don’t seem sheltered to me. Some have even dated prior to starting at the seminary, before they began discerning a call to the priesthood.

Father Donald Calloway is a good example of your quote. As far as I know, he has kept his promise to God to be His priest forever.

We sometimes have a tendency to make it sound like a vocation to the priesthood is a prision sentence. True these are human men with natural desires like single and married people, but thru prayer and commitment to the love of God and His Church, they are able to be faithful to their vows. How much can be said of those married who divorce because they fail to bring their problems to prayer that only God can heal and transform? Sometimes, we don’t allow God’s time to work in our lives and are rash in our judgments and decisions.

Francis Macnutt, a former priest who left to marry has written some wonderful books on healing prayer and is a wonderful speaker and so is his wife, is a good example of priests who break their vows.

If your vocation is being married, being faithful to your marriage vows is quite like if your vocation is the priesthood and being faithful to your ordination vows. But what if you break your vow? I suppose we should remember, there is no sin too great that God cannot forgive and we should try and not judge those who struggle, but pray for them. And I don’t know, if priests were allowed to marry, would they be faithful to the woman they married? How many would end up divorced?

 

[jpjd]

But we willingly accept Anglicans through a different loophole. I merely question the underlying logic or is it intransigence? I don’t know

The difference is, an Anglican man gets married, then becomes a priest. That’s called a married priesthood. You are proposing that a Catholic man who became a celibate priest, be allowed to leave the priesthood to get married, then become a priest again. If you are advocating married priesthood, then your proposal should be that a married Catholic man can become a priest. But to say that a celibate priesthood permit a man to leave for the purpose of getting married then return as married, that makes a mockery of the priesthood. It’s the leaving and the coming back that is the problem, not the married man coming in (if the Catholic Church were to permit it).

As a side note, I do think it’s sad that people do not value the celibate priesthood. There is a lot to be said for the dedication and commitment that the man shows to the Church and the priesthood by becoming a celibate priest. It’s not like they don’t know what they are getting into, after at least 4 years of seminary and probably more years prior to entering of being celibate. There are lay people who are not married and don’t sleep around, and are essentially celibate in that regard. It’s not like it’s impossible.

 

[Jimmygill88]

Judging by the position a lot of people take on this matter its more of a surprise to me that we have any priests at all. Anyone who gives up his life to minister to us no matter for how long has my gratitude.

 

[jpjd]

Judging by the position a lot of people take on this matter its more of a surprise to me that we have any priests at all. Anyone who gives up his life to minister to us no matter for how long has my gratitude.

“gives up his life” is a very revealing statement. Men who become priests don’t view it as “giving up their life”. There is more to life than sex.

It is precisely this view that is we have a shortage of priests, in my opinion.

 

[Cloisters]

If I remember correctly, canon law states that if a man has a problem with the celibacy, he is obligated to leave. Diocesan priests make a promise not to marry, but vow obedience to the bishop. They can accumulate as much wealth as they want.

I have researched this subject of priestly celibacy for a novel work-in-progress. Priestly celibacy is a church law, and can be changed at any time. Priests already in the priesthood would be exempt from the change if such ever happened. The rules regarding deacons would be followed, only taken a step further. Instead of changing the law in the book, I have simply switched to the Pastoral Provision, since the testimonies of Pastoral Provision priests’ wives are readily available.

I know of a few former priests, my own hometown being rocked by scandal when I was small, and I got to know the family later on. Not only was the man’s wife teaching at our Catholic high school, but he lovingly spoke to me about the subject, and couples used to go to him for pre-nuptial counseling. He said he received a letter thanking him for his service.

He is a widower now.

I don’t see why they can’t be “demoted” to deacon. Their experience can certainly be utilized, and what happened is between them and God. We always want to judge, but God will oftentimes put us in a similar situation, and we find ourselves begging for mercy.

Blessings,
Cloisters

 

[Jimmygill88]

If I remember correctly, canon law states that if a man has a problem with the celibacy, he is obligated to leave. Diocesan priests make a promise not to marry, but vow obedience to the bishop. They can accumulate as much wealth as they want.

I have researched this subject of priestly celibacy for a novel work-in-progress. Priestly celibacy is a church law, and can be changed at any time. Priests already in the priesthood would be exempt from the change if such ever happened. The rules regarding deacons would be followed, only taken a step further. Instead of changing the law in the book, I have simply switched to the Pastoral Provision, since the testimonies of Pastoral Provision priests’ wives are readily available.

I know of a few former priests, my own hometown being rocked by scandal when I was small, and I got to know the family later on. Not only was the man’s wife teaching at our Catholic high school, but he lovingly spoke to me about the subject, and couples used to go to him for pre-nuptial counseling. He said he received a letter thanking him for his service.

He is a widower now.

I don’t see why they can’t be “demoted” to deacon. Their experience can certainly be utilized, and what happened is between them and God. We always want to judge, but God will oftentimes put us in a similar situation, and we find ourselves begging for mercy.

Blessings,
Cloisters

Good luck with the book. It will be an interesting and very well research read. Keep me posted

 

[Jimmygill88]

“gives up his life” is a very revealing statement. Men who become priests don’t view it as “giving up their life”. There is more to life than sex.

It is precisely this view that is we have a shortage of priests, in my opinion.

For he that will save his life, shall lose it: and he that shall lose his life for my sake, shall find it. Mathew 16:25

 

[Daizies]

For he that will save his life, shall lose it: and he that shall lose his life for my sake, shall find it. Mathew 16:25

you missed the first part in verse 24
24 Then Jesus said to his disciples: If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

and continuing in verse 26
26 For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

Don’t see how that supports your point. Within context, it doesn’t mean you literally sacrifice your life in the sense you seem to mean it, rather if you give your life to God, you will find fullness of life.