The doctrines adoration and forms of worship are not “beyond” scripture. They are deeply rooted and embedded in scripture as it pertains to Salvation History. The Church, in her ongoing discernment and guidence by the Holy Spirit uproots these doctrines. The fact that She can do this is apparent in scripture also.
On the contrary, that is EXACTLY why the Church is in custody of these treasures. They are held on behalf of the faithful, and are used to comfort, refresh, and instruct His earthly Body, the Church. God created us as sensual beings, and His revelation to us has always included the senses. He does not reach out to us apart from our senses.
This is true. When individuals are in unity with the successor of Peter, and embrace the Teachings that God has kept infallibly in the Church by His Holy Spirit, they can also benefit from the gift. This gift does not protect those who have departed from the Teachings of the Apostles.
Yes, I thought the nuns at my Catholic school were “hateful and mean” also. Now that I am older, I realize that they were given the impossible job of spiritual formation of children who were not properly catechized at home, and were often taught opposite at home of what the Church teaches (for example, that it is ok to hit someone if you are angry with them). I also realize that some of them did not have proper education in the developmental needs and abilities of children. I think some of them thought of us as small adults, and did not see our questions as part of our developmental process.
Thanks for saying this, and thanks for participating.
Can you please say some more about this? I don’t understand why some Catholics not being able to receive the gifts of the Spirit would be a reason for walking away from the Truth. I can only think that you don’t really believe that the Catholic Church is the one founded by Christ, which has nothing to do with the fact that some people are lacking the fullness of the Spirit in their lives.
I am very interested in this statement. I read at the bottom of your post that you dont’ have a lot of time right now, but if/when you do, could you say some more about how the doctrine dilutes the work Jesus accomplished? I am confused about this statement.
This is a very common misunderstanding about the Catholic faith, and I think stems from poor catechesis. Most of the nominal Catholics I know think that we get to heaven by “being good”, and try to live “moral lives”. They don’t seem to have been educated about salvation by grace, through faith.
No, it only seems that way if a person does not understand the teaching on purgatory. Purgatory is the cleansing by fire spoken of in scripture. It is only available to those who have been cleansed by the blood of Jesus. I am kinda lost on how that is carnal?
You mean the belief that God purifies our souls so that nothing unclean will enter heaven shows a lack of understanding of the Eucharist? I think you lost me there.
But, to the extent that we suffer in the flesh, this can contribute to our spiritual benefit, as well as other members of the Body.
Yes.
It is very Catholic of you to say this.I think you are right, but this is the way that God decided to to things. Mary was already full of grace when the angel came. The angel greeted her as “Full of Grace”. This condition was already present when the angel arrived.
There are two errors in this statement. One is that worship of any created being is approved. This is a violation of the first commandment. The the other is that the Scripture contains all that is germaine to our faith practice. The Apostles never taught this.
I hope you will soon have time to return with more!
I love the catholic church, just not the Roman Catholic Church. I disagree with Papal Infallability. I also disagree with the RCC’s stance on artificial birth control. Lastly, I feel strongly that faith should be centered on love, not sin.
I understand the RCC teaching but it is not taught in Scripture. The cleansing fire happens here during our time on earth. When we die our spirit is with Jesus. Our spirit has been cleansed by the Blood, every sin has been cleansed. Sin is manifested in the flesh which returns to the earth waiting for the final redemption. Your teaching is carnal or fleshly because it suggests more has to be done and is works based because others can offer things to get us out. When we are born again our spirit is made alive and must be strengthened to overcome the sin nature of the flesh and its desires. Eph 6:10-17 among other places.
In remembering the body and blood of Jesus we are remembering what was accomplished. That Jesus bore the penalty for our sins and we are clean - past, present and future - so we are purified by the cross - no need for further purification. Our flesh does not accompany us because sin resides there. Our flesh will be made new upon the return of Jesus.
Yes, spiritual growth to use here on earth. Not self mortification though; only by persecution from others.
Not Roman Catholic but Christian part of the universal Body of Christ.Yes.
Full of Grace at that moment not from birth. It goes against too many Scriptures.
You can call it by another name, adoration, but it has all the components of worship. It is exactly the same process as heathen worship. Statue or physical object, offeriing, such as flowers, candles and prayers and songs. You just spin it in a way that sounds right. Even though you use an OT model of the queen mother; it does not apply because Jesus did away with the old model. Acts would have been a perfect place to establish Marian doctrine but I don’t see it there. While I admire Mary and call her blessed for her ministry, I feel the RCC goes beyond Scripture in the place they give her.
you’ve taken John 6:51 out of context If you back up just a couple verses to John 6:47-48, you’ll find the context, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. I am that bread of life.” Jesus was speaking about salvation. To teach that Jesus meant for us to literally digest His body is not only absurd, but is also inconsistent with the rest of the Bible. In John 10:9 Jesus claimed to be the “door.” How do we go through this “literal” door?
1. **Theology.** They became convinced that there were certain doctrines that they could not believe. Transubstantiation could be one. Or, the Immaculate Conception. Some had a special problem with many of the saints and stories told about them that sounded incredible.
2. **Authority.** Probably they were influenced by the democratic atmosphere in the USA, but they came to resent the idea that they had to believe everything mandated by the magisterium. They thought of this as a straitjacket that did not permit the freedom to explore, analyize, weigh, examine, etc. Some came to the conclusion that there were no clear answers to some ultimate questions and are content to live with maybes, possiblies, and probablies.
3. **Personal ethics**. There was a strong reaction against the absolute ban of artificial birth control. Married couples thought this was irresponsible - and their personal decision. In a somwhat different area, they opposed required celibacy of priests, some felt women were shortchanged in the church, etc. The sexual scandal involving priests and the coverup by hierarchy alienated many who were already on the edge.
4.** Once they left Catholicism**, some looked back at apparitions, Papal infallibility, heavy reliance upon ancient traditions, crowning of Mary, confession to a priest, etc., as laden with superstition. Those who became evangelicals charged that Catholicism didn't stick closely enough to the Bible. Those who became liberal Protestants treasured their new 'freedom of thought'. Some just abandoned organized religion altogether.Acts 2:42,46 They devoted themselves to the teachings of the apostles and to the communal life,to the breaking of the bread and to the prayers…Luke lists, the “breaking of the bread” as one of the defining charecteristics of the church. The remaining chapters of acts bears this out, as we repeatedly see the community “do this” in remembrence (offer this memorial sacrifice) Like so many other details in the life of Jesus, this one was foretold and foreshadowed in the Old Testament. Jesus taught that the Eucharist (thanksgiving) was foeshadowed in the manna given by God during Israel’s exodus from Egypt(see John 6:49-51) Indeed long before the Last Supper Jesus himself foreshadowed the Eucharist by multiplying bread to feed his congregations,by repeatedly evoking banquet scences in His preaching, and by choosing to be born in a town named bethlehem(Hebrew for house of bread). In an extended explicit foretelling, He detailed the theology of His Eucharistic presence in the famous “Bread of life discourse” (John 26-58) "I am the living bread which comes down from heaven; if any one eats this bread, he will live forever;and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is My “FLESH” (Jn 6:51) His flesh is bread, His blood is drink. This corresponds directly to His pronouncements over the bread and wine at the Last Supper: “This is my Body…This is the cup of My Blood”…the very action He COMMANDED His Apostles to repeat.
I am curious what you think the scriptures are talking about when we are purified with fire after our death. If you have already answered this, sorry, I am a little behind on the thread, but I will look for it.
Do you have an idea about the Soul (mind and emotions)? Or do you consider them part of “Spirit”?
You don’t seem to believe that members of the Body of Christ can support and help one another by our acts of love and service.
How does this happen? What happens when you are “born again”?
I am sorry that your soteriology does not make any sense to me. In one sentence, you are saying we are perfected, and in another, you are saying that our flesh is still sinful, and that we need to be strengthened to overcome the sin nature and it’s desires. So, which is it? Are we pure, or do we have a sin nature?
How do you account for those whose flesh is in heaven?
What is “self mortification”?
I am sure it goes against how you understand them. But the Scriptures were written and canonized by the Catholic Church. That is why there is nothing in them that is not Catholic .
Adoration is reserved for God alone. The adoration of any creature, or created thing, is a violation of the first commandment.
Do you think that these things are inherintly “heathen”?
On the contrary, Jesus is the fulfillment of the OT model in every way. He is the Son of David, upon whose shoulder rests the Keys of the Kingdom. His mother has her status from His. She has no “queenship” in herself, but because she is the Mother of the King of the Universe, she is the Mother of God.
No, the main focus of the early church was on the identity of Jesus. The Marian doctrines were not developed until the heresies about Christ were addressed in later centuries.
Of course! The Catholic Church is entirely “beyond the Scripture”. The Church founded by Christ was never confined by the Scripture. The Church existed fully prior to any word of the NT ever being written, and ALL of the authors of that NT revered Mary as the Mother of God, ever virgin.
No,the “context” of the NT is the Catholic Church. There is nothing in it that is not Catholic. Any books that deviated even slightly from the Catholic faith were not included in the NT when the CC closed the canon in 382 AD.
Are you sure you were not one of the Jews that walked away from Hiim?
Ahh. This is one of the most serious errors when interpreting the NT. Just because something is literal does not mean it is not spiritual, and those things that are spiritual may also be literal. This is a confusion of the tangible with “real” and intangible as “unreal” and that is a mistake.
He did later, though, and he was finally baptized with both water, and spirit.
Well, we do fail to understand why you can’t “get” what the Church has believed and taught ever since the last supper. Maybe you better study the meaning of anamnesis?
I agree. I have never understood why people do this. It seems to me like there are plenty of crosses to bear!
Indeed, He is the bread of life. But Catholics do not consume “bread and wine”. We consume His Body and Blood, without which He commanded that we would not have life in us. Have you ever considered that it is impossible to profane that which is not present?
First of all, why would it be fatal?
Magic, no, but mystical, most certainly. I think you must be unfamiliar with the nature of anamnesis. When Jesus commanded the Apostles to “do this” He used the word to “make”, as in “make a sacrifice”, just a the lamb was sacrificed for the Passover.
Do you think people that believe in the Real Presence are unsaved?
Do you think that those who believe in the Real PResence dont’ look to Jesus?
Sounds like doctoring the books.
What was it that made it impossible for you to find out where you were?I’m a “revert”, after 25 years away. In hindsight I left because I had to find out for myself it was true. I’ve always had to do things the hard way.
If you’re asking why I couldn’t recognize the truth in Catholicism at the time, I simply didn’t. By the time I was a teenager I had to be honest with myself that I really didn’t know if the Christian message was valid. I now see this world as an exile from God, a place where we have the opportunity to come to know our need for Him-perhaps after wallowing in the Prodigals pigsty for awhile! But the message I’d been taught “kicked in” later on, via a circuitous route through study of other faiths/philosophies, getting into the bible intensely, Protestantism, and then ultimately, and to my own surprise, back home to Catholicism.
I LOVE to hear that people find God, no matter where they find Him. I was raised Southern Baptist, and married a Lutheran so I got to experience different methods of worship before I came to the Catholic Church (not going to tell my story because it’s the opposite of what the OP is asking, but my experience with Mass has been much different than you described). My best friend is now teaching Sunday School at her Southern Baptist church and I’ve never seen her so fired up! I think there will always be a little evangelist in me just tickled at seeing anyone get excited about God
I know God leads people to Him in different ways, sometimes puts people in strange situations, but I think it’s because He knows you’ll reach people there that may have otherwise never listened to someone speak about God.Chapter and verse please
We are composed of spirit, soul, and body. We are a spirit, who has a soul, who lives in a body.
That is not what I said or what I believe
Of course not. Works that come from our new nature are spiritual. Works that come from our desire to prove our goodness or to advance our spiritual position are carnal.
By the power of the Holy Spirit. Our spirit is brought back to life.
Our spirit is pure, our flesh has a sin nature
The grace of God
A practice where the body is beaten by one’s self in order to be more holy and less sinful.
He is talking about denying certain things in order to maintain moderation
Exactly, like an image, like a manufactured wafer, or statue, or artifact.
What are you talking about I have never talk to you B4,What attack and what rudness I have never talk to you ,Please tell me what you are talking about
Indeed, just as the angels of heaven rejoice. He can write straight with crooked lines!I LOVE to hear that people find God, no matter where they find Him. I was raised Southern Baptist, and married a Lutheran so I got to experience different methods of worship before I came to the Catholic Church (not going to tell my story because it’s the opposite of what the OP is asking, but my experience with Mass has been much different than you described). My best friend is now teaching Sunday School at her Southern Baptist church and I’ve never seen her so fired up! I think there will always be a little evangelist in me just tickled at seeing anyone get excited about God