Fortification and purity

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We will have to agree to disagree. You didn’t answer my questions.
Jesus spoke harshly against Pharisees who made laws for others. One should never tell another they committed a mortal sin!
 
Wow, just wow. You are not in full control of your faculties when you realize how that you are about to spill the seed!

Would you really recommend people to put themselves into a situation where they are not thinking clearly because it is the height of pleasure and then “control” themselves and attempt to refrain from spilling the seed?
 
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This is extremely wicked. By the time someone knows they are about to spill the seed they are literally within moments of spilling the seed! Given you only have a very short notice is precisely why it is proximate occasion of pollution from the very onset of the act!
 
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By the time someone knows they are about to spill the seed they are literally within moments of spilling the seed!
You seem to be under the false impression that it is always a matter of waiting until the last moment. Any normal man can quite accurately gauge his level of excitement and stop well before there is any risk of inadvertent completion. And to make it even clearer, please keep your rigid opinions out of my business.
 
No, I am replying to a commenter that thinks there is a lot of warning before the seed is spilled, apparently based on the warning that comes at the end of the act. In which case, it must be regarded as pollution begun, not just danger, the evil effect has already started! Church Doctors thought it was proximate danger from the onset!

(1) Sex acts take variable lengths of time. Therefore, you have no clue going into the act whether this particular act will end quickly or not. It is the fact that some of the acts in marriage go from no excitement to extreme excitement in a very brief period of time that make these acts so dangerous. And even if the majority of acts take minutes, the very fact that a non- insignificant percentage of marital acts finish in a short length of time immediately demonstrates that unnatural acts are proximate danger of pollution.

(2) It is not your ability to “control” yourself that determines whether a sin is a sin. Rather it those objective factors that you are having to fight against in order to not spill the seed in the first place that make the act “proximate occasion of sin.” It is the pleasure which is making you not able to think clearly, the fact that you do not know when exactly the act will end, the temptation to continue performing the act, random error because your partner might just be off that day, these are what make these acts so wicked and always and everywhere proximate occasion of sin according to the Doctors of the Church.

(3) This is flat out false, men cannot always accurately judge when they are close to finishing the act! It is possible for your level of excitement to change very rapidly, very quickly. Sex acts can finish very rapidly, even when there was little excitement before!

You cannot judge when the end of the act will occur because sex is not something that linearly increases in pleasure up until the end of the act, the pleasure has highs and lows as it oscillates towards the maximum at the end of the act! There is no way whatsoever to know with certainty when the next “high” will come, it could come very rapidly when you are least expecting it! This is precisely why it is proximate occasion of sin from the onset of the act.

Also, even if people knew when the end of the act would come, it would still be danger of pollution! People sleeping in the same bed before marriage also know when exactly fornication will occur (it occurs after your cloths come off, so there is a lot of warning), however, nonetheless, it is the the fact that a man is not thinking clearly and is tempted to continue further that makes sleeping in the same bed before marriage proximate occasion of sin. Regardless of whether you successfully resist, it is not whether you resist/ control yourself that makes it danger, it is the fact that you have to resist in the first place that makes it near occasion of sin! In exactly the same way, it is not whether the act has warning that makes unnatural acts proximate occasion of pollution, it is proximate danger of sin because you are not thinking clearly when in the height of pleasure, the warmth of the area of the body, etc!
 
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Fr. Mike Schmitz has an excellent video where he talks about not turning down the dark country road with your girlfriend in the first place! He does not say to learn how to control yourself! He does not say to test it out to see if you are the rare exception that can turn down the dark roads but still stop before anything bad happens! He says to not turn down the road in the first place. And in the same way, do not perform the unnatural act in the first place!

One final thing: like I keep saying, a large percentage of couples do have accidents with spilling the seed. Even if acts these acts were only proximate danger for some individuals, how can you know that you are the rare exception where it is not proximate danger without testing it out? And even after trying it, how do you know you just didn’t get lucky, but if you repeated your marriage again you wouldn’t be so lucky?

It is very wicked to tell married couples to test out unnatural acts to see whether they are the rare exception (and even if they were a rare exception, it would still be mortally sinful). It would still be sinful, because just because an act is not proximate danger of pollution, it can still be danger, a mortal sin except in grave circumstances. Even if the Doctors were so wrong that the acts were remote danger of pollution when they thought they were proximate danger, this does not change how we operate, we must flee from venial sins!
 
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I don’t know. If I had to choose between no sex for the rest of my life or no beer for the rest of my life…it would honestly be a hard one! People go on and on about sex, and it can be great and is definitely important… but when you really step away and look at it, it’s a very tiny percentage of our life.
 
Look, for a newly married Young man, getting undressed in the shared bedroom can be a proximate danger…it doesn’t take much. The way some of these moralists wrote, with constant dangers of mortal sin around every corner of the marital bed, it would be far better for no one to ever marry. The contemporary Magisterium seems to take a much softer, more holistic approach to sexuality in marriage.
 
Why the double wall of text to continue with the sky-is-falling judgmental hyperbolic inaccurate (or at least not universally accurate) pronouncements? I will exit this unproductive exchange with a few choice words, to wit:

Mind.

Your.

Own.

Business.
 
You have not responded to a single one of my points. 1. That marital acts vary greatly in the length of time to completion from one act to the next. 2. That you cannot judge how close the act is to completion since marital acts do not linearly increase in pleasure, they have highs and lows. 3. Since it is possible to go from very low excitement to extreme excitement very rapidly. 4. Because just like we do not want a single sin of fornication or adultery, we do not want a pollution. 5. Doctor of the Church St. Alphonsus was called a “most learned expert” by the Magisterium. He claims these acts are proximate danger of pollution! How could he be so off that they are no danger at all. And most importantly.

Which acts constitute danger of pollution can be deduced from the Magisterium in Denz 3907!

Finally, these acts are unnatural modes of copulation, excluding all consideration of pollution. And this is backed up by the Magisterium in Denz. 2044, 2715, 2758, 2795, 3644, and 3638.
 
Secondly, the Magisterium claims in Denz. 2715, 3634, etc. that it is an act of charity to stop an exceedingly wicked act.

Question: Given that Onanism is morally equivalent to an attack against your wife (the Holy See decreed this in Denz 3638), like a rape, why should acts that are so vile that God struck someone dead for them be “none of anyone’s business?”

It is an act of charity to implore people to avoid mortal sins, especially the worst of the worst mortal sins!
 
You have not responded to a single one of my points
Correct. Nor will I. It is not worth my time to enter into such an argument, nor would you acknowledge any fact that disagreed with your position as true. Muting now.
 
Yeah, it is useless to debate with someone who is making ad hominems: “stay out of my business.” If that was an argument, then liberals must refute Truth by saying the same thing about Catholics even being against spilling the seed! Is spilling the seed moral because liberals make the same argument about Catholics and condoms: “Stay out of my business?”

Secondly, I am arguing from the Magisterium. Please respond with an argument from Scripture, Tradition, or the Magisterium!
 
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The contemporary Magisterium seems to take a much softer, more holistic approach to sexuality in marriage.
Can you point to magisterial writings that you’d characterize this way?
 
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I believe the Theology of the Body books say that.
What I said is 100% accurate. What has been said is it is an proximate occasion of sin. Proximate occasion of sins are very subject. What leads you to sin is different from what leads me to sin.
 
Given that Onanism is morally equivalent to an attack against your wife (the Holy See decreed this in Denz 3638), like a rape
Are you really putting “withdrawal/spilling seed” in the same category as violent rape?
 
I am wondering what your view on oral sex given to a woman. Should not she be brought to completion at least, either with oral or with using the hand during sex/foreplay?
 
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