Four Cardinals Formally Ask Pope for Clarity on Amoris Laetitia

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That is NOT what I have said, at least,…
Please stop putting words in people’s mouths. That is neither fair, nor kind.

You have been pretty ‘sharp’ with others and very critical of their own ‘critical reading skills’ etc. so finding you obviously not reading posts carefully and making these unsupported assertions is puzzling to me.
I did not specifically name you Tantum Ergo.
However I do read your posts very closely.

You originally stated, “those [ie divorced/remarried without annulment] in a permanent state of said mortal sin cannot receive the Eucharist until they are no longer in sin?”.

And again, "The consequence of mortal (…Both mortal and venial sins are true sins) sin is separation from God. "
  1. Some here, likely yourself also, seem to believe such cannot receive Reconciliation (without living as brother and sister) so they will therefore be in a permanent state of mortal sin.
  2. You likely believe with others here that a “state of mortal sin” can only be entered by committing personal acts of mortal sin.
  3. We know from the Vatican CCC that all acts of mortal sin are fully imputable.
  4. Mortal sins then by definition rob the soul of sanctifying grace and completely kill the presence of God.
  5. Therefore such divorced and remarried are damned until such time as they change their lives so as to be able to make a valid Confession expressing firm resolve not to keep repeating the objective contradictions in question.
BTW I believe “venial sin”, technically, is not really “true sin” as it is not incompatible with sanctifying grace as is mortal sin. It does not separate us from God but does lesson our fervour and closeness and makes separation more likely.

If I have somehow misunderstood you above I apologise and would appreciate if you could explain how I have misunderstood what you, at least on face value, actually said?.
 
Everyone seems to be arguing each possible interpretation in isolation; that is separately looking at the merits of “Communion for the sexually active divorced and civilly remarried” or the merits of “withholding Communion for those in states of unrepentant Mortal Sin”. The issue for me isn’t just the consideration of the two interpretations themselves, it’s their relationship to our entire notion of what the Church is and does; whether it was instituted by God himself as the ark of salvation to pass his teachings from generation to generation in an uncorrupted form.

The Church has historically taught that sex outside of a valid marriage is a mortal sin as it is an objectively evil act (I’m not counting cases such as rape etc), and that to die in a state of mortal unrepentant sin leads to Hell. Now suddenly some are saying that AL shows that what was once taught as being deadly to the soul, is not mortal sin in some cases.

The Holy Spirit wouldn’t change its mind and make good into evil or evil into good, so therefore the Holy Spirit must have been consistent in its intent and teaching historically whichever interpretation you take:

a) Either adultery is a mortal sin that leads to a state of mortal sin and always has done, in which case an interpretation of AL that it is now permissible to have Communion in some cases of unrepentant adultery is not consistent with the Doctrines of the Church, the Sacraments and the guidance of the Holy Spirit. But importantly, the Church has consistently been right on this issue of moral teachings, and therefore is capable of guiding us because we can trust its moral teachings are consistent with the Holy Spirit.
b) Or adultery is in fact not a mortal sin in certain circumstances, in which case the Church has been teaching error for 2,000 years in its Doctrine, Sacraments and Moral teachings for how we are to lead our lives. If this is the case, the Church is not preserved from teaching Doctrinal error (as under this interpretation it would have been in error until now). In which case we could not trust that the Church teaches God’s word faithfully.

So the choice seems to be either: a) The Church has always been right and Communion for the sexually active D&R is impossible. Or b) The Church has always been wrong on this issue, in which case the Church isn’t infallible…
So there is a difference between objective grave sin and actual mortal sin, for ignorance or involuntariness effect culpability.

So Fr. Thomas Michelet, O.P. wrote a commentary for A.L. Footnote 351 follows number 305 of “Amoris Laetitia,” which recalls that in an objective situation of sin it is possible not to be subjectively culpable.

This is well-established doctrine, because in order to commit a mortal sin grave matter is not enough; full knowledge and deliberate consent are also required (Catechism of the Catholic Church 1415).
and
With that, the regime of Familiaris Consortio has effectively changed. Not in the sense that sinners aware of their grave sin go to receive communion: this is not possible and will never be so. But in the sense that persons who do not know they are in grave sin can receive “the help of the sacraments” until they become aware of this sin in spiritual accompaniment. They will then stop receiving them until they have changed their way of life to conform fully with the demands of the Gospel, according to Familiaris Consortio.

riposte-catholique.fr/en-une/rp-thomas-michelet-op-analyse-note-351-damoris-laetitia-riposte-catholique
 
Professors John Finnis and Germain Grisez have written an open letter to Pope Francis. Here is an excerpt from article:

In this letter we request Pope Francis to condemn eight positions against the Catholic faith that are being supported, or likely will be, by the misuse of his Apostolic Exhortation Amoris Laetitia. We ask all bishops to join in this request and to issue their own condemnations of the erroneous positions we identify, while reaffirming the Catholic teachings these positions contradict.

The following considerations make it clear why appeals to Amoris Laetitia in support of these positions are correctly described as misuse of the Pope’s document.

When a bishop acts in persona Christi, fulfilling his duty to teach on matters of faith and morals by identifying propositions to which he calls upon the faithful to assent, he presumably means to state truths that belong to one and the same body of truths: primarily, those entrusted by Jesus to his Church and, secondarily, those necessary to preserve the primary truths as inviolable and/or to expound them with fidelity. Since truths like these cannot supersede or annul one another, papal or other episcopal statements made while teaching in persona Christi must be presumed to be consistent with one another when carefully interpreted. Thus it is a misuse of such a teaching statement to claim its support without having first sought so to interpret it.

Furthermore, if an apparent inconsistency emerges after careful interpretation, a teaching statement that is not definitive is misused unless it is understood with qualifications and delimitations sufficient to make it consistent with Scripture and teachings that definitively pertain to Tradition, each interpreted in the other’s light.

In our letter we deal only with the misuse of Amoris Laetitia to support positions held by theologians and pastors who are not teaching in persona Christ. We neither assert nor deny that Amoris Laetitia contains teachings needing qualification or delimitation, nor do we make any suggestions about how to do that, supposing it were necessary.

The letter explains how proponents of the eight positions we identify can find support in statements by or omissions from the Apostolic Exhortation, and indicates how these positions are or include errors against the Catholic faith. In each case we explain briefly how the position has emerged among Catholic theologians or pastors and show how certain statements or omissions from Amoris Laetitia are being used, or likely will be used, to support it. We then set out grounds for judging the position to be contrary to Catholic faith, that is, to Scripture and teachings that definitively pertain to Tradition, each interpreted in the other’s light.

The eight positions are these.

Position A: A priest administering the Sacrament of Reconciliation may sometimes absolve a penitent who lacks a purpose of amendment with respect to a sin in grave matter that either pertains to his or her ongoing form of life or is habitually repetitive.

Position B: Some of the faithful are too weak to keep God’s commandments; though resigned to committing ongoing and habitual sins in grave matter, they can live in grace.

Position C: No general moral rule is exceptionless. Even divine commandments forbidding specific kinds of actions are subject to exceptions in some situations.

Position D: While some of God’s commandments or precepts seem to require that one never choose an act of one of the kinds to which they refer, those commandments and precepts actually are rules that express ideals and identify goods that one should always serve and strive after as best one can, given one’s weaknesses and one’s complex, concrete situation, which may require one to choose an act at odds with the letter of the rule.

Position E: If one bears in mind one’s concrete situation and personal limitations, one’s conscience may at times discern that doing an act of a kind contrary even to divine commandment will be doing one’s best to respond to God, which is all that he asks, and then one ought to choose to do that act but also be ready to conform fully to the divine commandment if and when one can do so.

Position F: Choosing to bring about one’s own, another’s, or others’ sexual arousal and/or satisfaction is morally acceptable provided only that (1) no adult has bodily contact with a child; (2) no participant’s body is contacted without his or her free and clear consent to both the mode and the extent of contact; (3) nothing done knowingly brings about or unduly risks significant physical harm, disease transmission, or unwanted pregnancy; and (4) no moral norm governing behavior in general is violated.

Position G: A consummated, sacramental marriage is indissoluble in the sense that spouses ought always to foster marital love and ought never to choose to dissolve their marriage. But by causes beyond the spouses’ control and/or by grave faults of at least one of them, their human relationship as a married couple sometimes deteriorates until it ceases to exist. When a couple’s marriage relationship no longer exists, their marriage has dissolved, and at least one of the parties may rightly obtain a divorce and remarry.

Position H: A Catholic need not believe that many human beings will end in hell.

Our letter concludes by indicating how theologians and pastors who teach and put into practice any of these eight positions can thereby do grave harm to many souls, and pointing to some ways in which this may happen. It also notes the grave damage these errors do to marriage and to young people who otherwise might have entered into authentic married life with good hearts and been signs of Christ’s covenantal love for his Church.​
firstthings.com/web-exclusives/2016/12/an-open-letter-to-pope-francis
 
Do you believe Jesus forgave her?

If the Evangelist actually understood this event the way you have interpretted him … don’t you think he would find it critically important to show readers that the woman was explicitly repentant in the way you assume?

Or maybe he wasn’t actually making the point you believe him to be making so in fact had no need to demonstrate her firm resolution not to sin again which you in fact need to assume despite there being no evidence whatsoever for this from the story as it stands.

So I suggest its fairly obvious to an unbiased reader that pnewton’s interpretation is the far more likely least wrong one.
Is it so very hard to grasp?: “I would suggest we do not know what Jesus knew.”

It seems this observation has become like a RorschachTest. Nevertheless, is it not true that a “least wrong” interpretation remains wrong just as a “least wrong” mortal sin remains a mortal sin?
 
  1. Some here, likely yourself also, seem to believe such cannot receive Reconciliation (without living as brother and sister) so they will therefore be in a permanent state of mortal sin.
  2. You likely believe with others here that a “state of mortal sin” can only be entered by committing personal acts of mortal sin.
  3. We know from the Vatican CCC that all acts of mortal sin are fully imputable.
  4. Mortal sins then by definition rob the soul of sanctifying grace and completely kill the presence of God.
  5. Therefore such divorced and remarried are damned until such time as they change their lives so as to be able to make a valid Confession expressing firm resolve not to keep repeating the objective contradictions in question.
This from St JP2 directly addresses your questions about purpose of amendment and the efficacy of confession etc…
ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP960322.HTM
An excerpt:
No repentance without purpose of amendment
It is also self-evident that the accusation of sins must include the serious intention not to commit them again in the future. If this disposition of soul is lacking, there really is no repentance: this is in fact a question of moral evil as such, and so not taking a stance opposed to a possible moral evil would mean not detesting evil, not repenting. But as this must stem above all from sorrow for having offended God, so the intention of not sinning must be based on divine grace, which the Lord never fails to give anyone who does what he can to act honestly.
As for your #5 we do not know who is damned. The discipline and pastoral guidance are what they are, and we should live our lives by the Church’s guidance.
We should not tempt God’s good graces. And so assumptions about the state of one’s soul, and especially assumptions about the state of other’s souls, are a real problem for our spiritual life.
 
Yes, that is correct I believe.
Why does this suggest to you that sexual lapses are not sins of grave matter?
Venial sins are not inconsistent with the presence of sanctifying grace.
These are not normally venial sins. That’s all we are saying.

Always grave matter, very often a mortal sin.
 
Originally Posted by Stat_Crux View Post
One is damned the first, third, fiftieth or five-hundreth time and so on and so forth. Each time one damns oneself because each time it is a rejection of God.
May I ask if you have received any significant Catechetical or moral theology training since leaving secondary school.
Sexual sins are often enough venial and therefore not “damning” if by that you mean a complete loss of sanctifying grace.
Both extremes are assumptions that are taken to justify a point of view.

That reduces the moral life to one’s personal tool, either to relieve one’s self of responsibility, or to cast culpability on to others where it is not our competence to do so. The moral life does not point us to minimalism: guilty/not guilty.

In other words, the moral life does not merely help a person avoid the snare. It does do that, and the fuller purpose of morality is to lead us to beatitude. So in reality, what is asked of us is much more than we might assume.

Sexual sins are difficult to overcome for good reason. The pearl of great price is so radically beautiful that our whole way of living must be changed.
Presuming on the loopholes does not lead to virtue.
I. THE HUMAN VIRTUES
1804 Human virtues are firm attitudes, stable dispositions, habitual perfections of intellect and will that govern our actions, order our passions, and guide our conduct according to reason and faith. They make possible ease, self-mastery, and joy in leading a morally good life. The virtuous man is he who freely practices the good.
The moral virtues are acquired by human effort. They are the fruit and seed of morally good acts; they dispose all the powers of the human being for communion with divine love.
 
Margaret McCarthy, a theologian, said that. She said the reason the divorced and remarried are not permitted to receive communion is that they have broken the marital bond which makes two people one. I’m sure there is more to it than what she said on the panel.

Either way, culpability is the key, as was stated by the Argentinian bishops. Diminished culpability and responsibility imply the marriage was invalid regardless of whether or not an annulment can be granted because of circumstances that make an annulment too burdensome or beyond the capability of a person to get because of the annulment process.

I have a problem with what McCarthy said regarding the married couple breaking one in half. She is hanging her hat on the infallibility of the annulment process and the judgement of a tribunal. But if the process was good, why would the pope have changed canon law to reform it. The indication is that the annulment process can be flawed, and should not be the end all be all in regards to marriage validity. Pope Francis is taking some authority away from the tribunal and giving it to pastors who are in a better position to know the divorced and remarried.
Your second paragraph implies that the underlying issue is actually validity, and I would agree with that. The first marriage is valid or it is not. If the nature of the pastoral process is to allow parish pastors or priests to determine validity, let us be clear that that is what is being done. And if a marriage is determined to be invalid in that way, let the parish records be annotated to reflect that determination.
 
Your second paragraph implies that the underlying issue is actually validity, and I would agree with that. The first marriage is valid or it is not. If the nature of the pastoral process is to allow parish pastors or priests to determine validity, let us be clear that that is what is being done. And if a marriage is determined to be invalid in that way, let the parish records be annotated to reflect that determination.
Exactly so.

If it is discerned that the first marriage was valid but the person, with the validity known, is nevertheless permitted to receive Holy Communion while persisting in conjugal relations (i.e., adultery) while in an irregular marriage, then I believe an insurmountable difficulty for the Church will result.
 
Is it so very hard to grasp?: “I would suggest we do not know what Jesus knew.”

It seems this observation has become like a RorschachTest. Nevertheless, is it not true that a “least wrong” interpretation remains wrong just as a “least wrong” mortal sin remains a mortal sin?
And yet you hold the woman was forgiven?
 
Your second paragraph implies that the underlying issue is actually validity, and I would agree with that. The first marriage is valid or it is not. If the nature of the pastoral process is to allow parish pastors or priests to determine validity, let us be clear that that is what is being done. And if a marriage is determined to be invalid in that way, let the parish records be annotated to reflect that determination.
The great majority of pastors don’t have the training to complete the assessment process for validity of marriages, as a “mini-tribunal”. They can and do provide pastoral (name removed by moderator)ut to the process. If the first 7 pastors the couple talk to happens to affirm validity, and the 8th priest they talk to is the first one who denies validity, does that mean it is now declared invalid?
What about the first 7 pastors?

The greater problem is that priests are much too quick to marry couples that are unprepared for marriage, have serious unresolved issues, or hardly believe in Catholicism at all. In most cases I suspect young people who are living together, but have a parent who is an active Catholic, just get married to satisfy that parent, and the priest marries the couple as a favor to that active Catholic parent.

Then the couple never appears at church, there is no Catholic marriage in reality. Some people use this as a rationale for granting anullments easier. I look at this as an argument for restricting Catholic weddings in the first place. That is the message that should have come out in this debate.
 
This from St JP2 directly addresses your questions about purpose of amendment and the efficacy of confession etc…
ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP960322.HTM
An excerpt:

As for your #5 we do not know who is damned. The discipline and pastoral guidance are what they are, and we should live our lives by the Church’s guidance.
We should not tempt God’s good graces. And so assumptions about the state of one’s soul, and especially assumptions about the state of other’s souls, are a real problem for our spiritual life.
Let’s wait for TE him/herself? to advise where I may have misunderstood her words.
She after all is the only one who knows what she actually meant even if we know what she said :o.
I agree we do not know if those in irregular situations are damned.
But if we state these persons have committed mortal sin or are in a permanent state of mortal sin then that is unfortunately what we are saying according to the CCC definition of mortal sin.
 
Your second paragraph implies that the underlying issue is actually validity, and I would agree with that. The first marriage is valid or it is not. If the nature of the pastoral process is to allow parish pastors or priests to determine validity, let us be clear that that is what is being done. And if a marriage is determined to be invalid in that way, let the parish records be annotated to reflect that determination.
Validity is an interesting topic, especially since there is a presumption of validity from the valid celebration of a marriage, even sometimes when it is shown to be invalid later, and even sometimes invalidation is found to be faulty and is reversed, and also convalidations are found to be faulty (lack of new consent during convalidation CIC Cann. 1157, 1160). This uncertainty is due to the possibility of deceit or error. The best that one can hope for is that what one hopes is true really is true.
 
Validity is an interesting topic, especially since there is a presumption of validity from the valid celebration of a marriage, even sometimes when it is shown to be invalid later, and even sometimes invalidation is found to be faulty and is reversed, and also convalidations are found to be faulty (lack of new consent during convalidation CIC Cann. 1157, 1160). This uncertainty is due to the possibility of deceit or error. The best that one can hope for is that what one hopes is true really is true.
It seems to me that the chief difference in marriages now and marriages in better times (at least in the sense that the marriages lasted until death,) is this: At one time, bride and groom understood the wedding vows, pronounced them publicly, and meant what they said. Now, they either don’t understand them, which I find unlikely, or they don’t mean what they say.

Why is it that now, we do not really expect couples to keep their wedding vows?
 
Both extremes are assumptions that are taken to justify a point of view.

That reduces the moral life to one’s personal tool, either to relieve one’s self of responsibility, or to cast culpability on to others where it is not our competence to do so. The moral life does not point us to minimalism: guilty/not guilty.

In other words, the moral life does not merely help a person avoid the snare. It does do that, and the fuller purpose of morality is to lead us to beatitude. So in reality, what is asked of us is much more than we might assume.

Sexual sins are difficult to overcome for good reason. The pearl of great price is so radically beautiful that our whole way of living must be changed.
Presuming on the loopholes does not lead to virtue.
Of course, we all know a life of mature response to grace is not one of merely not breaking vows whether monastic or marital…but fulfilling their positive purposes with love.

Yet this does not mean that all lapses in grave matter impede such a positive trajectory. Some persons simply are not in a position of external or internal freedom for their lapses, even regular ones, to rise to the level of mortal sin even though “grave matter” still remains in play. We call these venial sins, not mortal sins. It is not for us, priest or layman, to decide which it is.
However a priest must decide on the type of objective “grave matter” and disposition involved for publicly known sinners presenting for Communion. This is because Canon Law requires him to do so. If the “grave matter” is deemed to be of a type customarily banned AND the disposition is obstinate and manifest Communion is not to be provided.

Now what historicly customarily qualifies as the type of grave matter involved has changed now and then which suggests the Magisterium has the authority to control this list.
Also re the perceived disposition of the sinner…this too is a practical judgement as to what qualifies as “obstinate”. Wise people may well differ on this point too.

Even on this thread we seem to differ whether the woman Jesus forgave had a firm purpose of ammendment “to sin no more” and whether Jesus’s phrase was a strict condition or a compassionate exhortation to keep trying.

In the end these questions are beyond the pay grade and responsibility of us lay people.
It is in the end not even our profession or business to be involved beyond musings.

To carry on here with strong emotion and concern over these issues even so far as to implicity and publicly question Pope Francis to me suggests a serious loss of Catholic perspective and an older brother approach to those less virtuous than ourselves that we know saddened Jesus.
 
Your second paragraph implies that the underlying issue is actually validity, and I would agree with that. The first marriage is valid or it is not. If the nature of the pastoral process is to allow parish pastors or priests to determine validity, let us be clear that that is what is being done. And if a marriage is determined to be invalid in that way, let the parish records be annotated to reflect that determination.
I think there is some truth in this interpretation.
I am not sure it amounts to transferring of some powers of the Tribunal to the PP though.

Maybe it’s more like the emergency field hospital in a war zone. Or the Samaritan binding the wounds of someone too far from a proper doctor/hospital. We just do it and worry about whether the right procedures and paper work were done/filled in properly at a later time…if at all. We wouldn’t worry about crossing the Ts and dotting Is just to make the put out doctors in Jerusalem Public Hospital happy when others carried out their duties when they could not do so.

Christianity can be messy. We all need to understand that and chip in with generous hearts.
Pope Francis is the Pope of messy Catholicism.
And about time.
Sometimes it’s the only way to remain graced and human.
 
It seems to me that the chief difference in marriages now and marriages in better times (at least in the sense that the marriages lasted until death,) is this: At one time, bride and groom understood the wedding vows, pronounced them publicly, and meant what they said. Now, they either don’t understand them, which I find unlikely, or they don’t mean what they say.

Why is it that now, we do not really expect couples to keep their wedding vows?
According to Michael Rosenfeld, an associate professor of sociology at Stanford University, women are more inclined to end a marriage, and less satisfied while married. He looked at 2,262 adults, ages 19 to 94 in opposite sex relationships (between 2009 and 2015) and found that Married women reported lower levels of relationship quality than married men but, unmarried women and men reported equal levels of relationship quality.
 
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