I’m hearing the comparison more and more and it may have more merit than you think.The Arian crisis dealt with the nature of Jesus. This is no way comparable, and any scholar should know that.
Why don t we let the Holy Spirit work?I’m hearing the comparison more and more and it may have more merit than you think.
At its heart it brings to debate the nature of two of the church’s sacraments. 1 marriage.
And 2 the Eucharist, which when you think about it is indeed the nature of Jesus.
Gracie, I wish I could always imitate the lightness of heart you speak of.Certainly.
AL is beautiful and it doesn’t t sound like we will be able to share it peacefully here,in this thread.
However,I still see that the point is not having a box ready for a person we haven t met. Nor counting boxes indefinitely to have every case in a box.
And when we embark on a journey there really isn’t t any certainty nor we know how it will end. This is what it is about for me.
No wonder Jesus would so often say " Do not be afraid"…
AL is reassuring,and pure kindness to help us out.
Have you noticed how few times the word sin is written in AL? Have you noticed how many times the word sin has been written in this thread.?
That just called my attention.it made me wonder what we were looking at and what we are failing to see.
If you want, go through the first chapter and see how we are carried forward,backwards ,here,there throughout the story. There really is no hurry.
Just look at it differently, it is very meaningful for me.
Thanks, Blue
My confessor recently reminded me that rigid approaches and strong set positions in the face of life’s contradictions is usually a sign we are not coping due to limited personal resources.You are correct that there is actually no rupture between Pope Francis and Tradition.
But, if you also are correct that A.L. permits the reception of Communion by certain people who were not allowed to do so by Church teaching pre-A.L., then that would in fact be a rupture requiring action-- either a correction by the College of Cardinals and/or the Pope, or a universally accepted, significantly clarified and defined development of doctrine without any contradiction of existing doctrine.
The latter seems to be impossible due to Our Lords clearly stated teaching. It’s up to the Holy Spirit to decide, but Christ’s well-known instruction seems to be clear that there will be no more exceptions:
They said to him, ‘Then why did Moses command that a writ of dismissal should be given in cases of divorce?’
He said to them, 'It was because you were so hard-hearted, that Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but it was not like this from the beginning.
Now I say this to you: anyone who divorces his wife – I am not speaking of an illicit marriage – and marries another, is guilty of adultery.’
To find out the meaning of “grave sins” and whether all in irregular marriages are far from God I wouldn’t stop at a single source…certainly not a single dictionary written by a single person.I said terms. For example, where does Aquinas give a definition for ‘Annulment’?. Or define what “Pastoral Theology” means, in Catholic terms
If you had to define those terms in a paper, what source would you cite?
You have a great sense of humor.I read in Catholic Culture that Bishop Athanasius Schneider was interviewed by French TV Libertes about Dubia and schism that already exists in Church. In doing search, I found the actual interview in French with English subtitles at gloria.tv/video/7cQMwoJ11tVWANeysewwDrJXf.
Very clear explanation about whether or not AL is Magesterial teaching, what Vatican II in Dei Verbum teaches are the limits of the Magisterium, what is the objective of AL, the ambiguity now being similar to what we witnessed in 4th century with Arianism, necessity of Dubia to prevent further schism that already exists, and why it is necessary to PRAY night and day for our Holy Father
I hope the interview helps clear up some of the confusion.
Indeed, in fact we are promised that the Church and the Pope are kept free of doctrinal error by the Holy Spirit.Why don t we let the Holy Spirit work?
Please try and look at it differently…
Did your parents know how to help you with your secondary school homework much?the statement I have bolder is absurd. if Catholic teaching is unchanged lie, one should be able to look to *any *pope for Church teaching, no?
My point was that Servant of God Harden’s work is well recognized and not easily dismissed.To find out the meaning of “grave sins” and whether all in irregular marriages are far from God I wouldn’t stop at a single source…certainly not a single dictionary written by a single person.
But then my programme emphasised critical theological scholarship rather than pastoral Deaconate training.
Of course, graciew. The Holy Father said upon the proclamation of AL that one of its main purposes is to encourage discussion. Is this not what we see here and, indeed, at all levels of the Church? Certainly, it is our own views that can evolve, so let us see how this discussion progresses. It is a dialectic that is way, way beyond our control, and I have complete faith that Pope Francis understands this very well.Why don t we let the Holy Spirit work?
Please try and look at it differently…
There is a huge difference that makes this is a bad analogy. Arianism was a heresy, pure and simple. Before there is any more implication that the Pope is a heretic, this type of rhetoric needs to end. This is a Catholic forum after all. Promoting schism is not acceptable., the ambiguity now being similar to what we witnessed in 4th century with Arianism, necessity of Dubia to prevent further schism that already exists, .
I have been following your posts in this thread, and I completely agree with you. Dialogues are always the best approach to deal with any issues. For about 2,000 years, cases of “irregular” marriages–unique/exceptional or otherwise–have been undoubted been discussed, examined and dealt with in the Church. The doctrine of indissolubility of marriage has been firmly upheld and has proved to be foundational for the Church. It’s no surprise as it came directly from Christ Himself. I have compllete faith in Christ and in the collective wisdom of the Church that has endured and strengthened it through the course of time.Agreed. Ambiguity cannot be clarified by further ambiguity.
My confessor recently reminded me that rigid approaches and strong set positions in the face of life’s contradictions is usually a sign we are not coping due to limited personal resources.
I have to admit he is probably right.
** Your confessor also would remind you that faith is assent to what God has revealed, as distinct from human-produced ambiguity, no matter how well intended. What has God revealed about marriage and adultery? You already know the answer to that–it’s what the Church has taught for 2,000 years as reiterated in this thread, no matter how “rigid” you may think that is.**
The contradictions are not real, rather we do not yet have the understanding or faith needed to resolve them or wait for them to be resolved.
The contradictions are not real because Pope Francis has neither the intent nor authority to change doctrine. What is real, however, is a humanly-manufactured contradiction embodied in the proposal that what the Church has been teaching about the doctrines at issue is lacking, and that it has been lacking because “we do not yet have the understanding or faith needed to resolve them or wait for them to be resolved.” Forgive me, Blue, but that sounds like some sort of agnosticism.
So often it sounds more like the need to be in complete control of others or even ourselves.
** “Be perfect, as your Heavenly Father is perfect”. No one wants to control you, Blue, but I would love to be perfect someday-- in complete control of myself. That can be done only by acting in accordance with Church teaching as you find it, not as you wish it to be. **
Well said. Now please let me in on what development of doctrine the Pope has given us that is free of error? Footnote 351?Indeed, in fact we are promised that the Church and the Pope are kept free of doctrinal error by the Holy Spirit.
If we don’t believe that, then the whole edifice in which our faith is nourished would be a hoax. I prefer to put my trust in Christ’s promise.
It deals with the reception of Jesus in Holy Communion, and if those who are in a state of grave sin (of varying degrees of culpability) and their intention to not correct this situation before receiving Jesus in the Eucharist.The Arian crisis dealt with the nature of Jesus. This is no way comparable, and any scholar should know that.
Footnote 351 is not doctrine. Nor does it do injury to it.Well said. Now please let me in on what development of doctrine the Pope has given us that is free of error? Footnote 351?
The contradictions would be removed if someone just explained 1. What is meant (I’m not sure that my thinking is correct); 2. What will happen criteria and oversight, definitions!) and 3. Why now?Did your parents know how to help you with your secondary school homework much?
My dad was good at maths but he couldn’t understand the new teaching methods I grew up with.
Neither did he understand calculus.
Pythagoras didn’t know Calculus…just as there are many Catholic truths that have arisen today that were unknown or fully considered or teased out in the Early Church.
Calculus is not rupture with Pythagoras, it was implicit in the old maths all the time. It just needed the new problems of a new generation for it to be explicitations.
That is what is happening with AL. A new birth is taking place with much pain for some. For some it seems like a sickness and a death not new life.
That is understandable.
The contradictions will resolve if we move with the process and trust the Magisterium rather than a few panicking Cardinals I believe.
So I ask again, please let me in on what development of doctrine the Pope has given us in A.L. that is free of error?Footnote 351 is not doctrine. Nor does it do injury to it.