Four cardinals seek audience with Pope over doctrinal ‘confusion’

[_Abyssinia]

The Cardinals made the request in early May but have not yet received a response

The four cardinals who wrote the “dubia” to Pope Francis have sent him a second letter requesting an audience, again without receiving a response, Italian journalist Sandro Magister reports.

The Pope received the letter, signed by Cardinal Carlo Caffarra on behalf of Cardinals Walter Brandmüller, Raymond Burke, Joachim Meisner on May 6. However, after a prolonged period with no response, the text has now appeared in the press.

catholicherald.co.uk/news/2017/06/20/four-cardinals-seek-audience-with-pope-over-doctrinal-confusion/

 

[Brassring]

This thread isn’t going anyplace good. Let the train wreck commence.

 

[ringil]

Its a shame that internal Church affairs are being exposed to the public and the review of the media.

 

[Seamus_L]

This from a very old newspaper, which to my knowledge is not considered to be controversial.

 

[Brassring]

Its a shame that internal Church affairs are being exposed to the public and the review of the media.

I found it repugnant that the article basically asserted that the reason the text of the letter was made public was because the Vatican hadn’t responded to it. “The pope didn’t respond, so we’re taking our case directly to the laity!” That is a blatant political ploy, and it is creating scandal on purpose to achieve a political end. It’s shameful.

 

[Brassring]

This from a very old newspaper, which to my knowledge is not considered to be controversial.

It might be an old newspaper, but it’s a new article. We must NOT confuse age with competence, respectability, or dignity. Age can generate those things, but it’s not a given.

 

[Wandile]

I found it repugnant that the article basically asserted that the reason the text of the letter was made public was because the Vatican hadn’t responded to it. “The pope didn’t respond, so we’re taking our case directly to the laity!” That is a blatant political ploy, and it is creating scandal on purpose to achieve a political end. It’s shameful.

So what if the pope never answers? What are they supposed to do?

The laity have a right to know and the bishops have a duty to the faithful to let them know how the faith is being protected or undermined

 

[Brassring]

So what if the pope never answers? What are they supposed to do?

The laity have a right to know and the bishops have a duty to the faithful to let them know how the faith is being protected or undermined

The bishops have a duty to guide their individual dioceses to the best of their ability in accordance with and UNDER THE AUTHORITY of their superiors. They have NO duty to attempt to make a world-wide issue out of it. They have NO duty to attempt to foment discontent with a pope with whom they have obvious theological differences.

I’m trying very hard not to assume that these four cardinals are attempting to drive Pope Francis to resign so that they may replace him with someone more to their liking, but every thing I read in regard to this so-called dubia makes that more difficult.

 

[ARSpade]

The bishops have a duty to guide their individual dioceses to the best of their ability in accordance with and UNDER THE AUTHORITY of their superiors. They have NO duty to attempt to make a world-wide issue out of it. They have NO duty to attempt to foment discontent with a pope with whom they have obvious theological differences.

I’m trying very hard not to assume that these four cardinals are attempting to drive Pope Francis to resign so that they may replace him with someone more to their liking, but every thing I read in regard to this so-called dubia makes that more difficult.

Obviously the bishops’ individual consciences told them to do it, and as Cardinal Cupich so famously said, “Conscience is inviolable and we have to respect that when making decisions"

 

[Brassring]

Obviously the bishops’ individual consciences told them to do it, and as Cardinal Cupich so famously said, “Conscience is inviolable and we have to respect that when making decisions"

Like Martin Luther’s conscience? Conscience is a pitiful excuse for bad decisions.

 

[twf]

I found it repugnant that the article basically asserted that the reason the text of the letter was made public was because the Vatican hadn’t responded to it. “The pope didn’t respond, so we’re taking our case directly to the laity!” That is a blatant political ploy, and it is creating scandal on purpose to achieve a political end. It’s shameful.

The truth is, people are scandalized regardless. It is confusing to many of the laity that the “rules” for who can receive communion now vary from diocese to diocese, region to region. This is simply a factual observation. The Holy Father has decided not to definitively settle the matter at this time. This isn’t the first time there has been disagreement or divergence in the Church and it won’t be the last time…but for now, people are confused. Personally, I think all any of us can do is follow our local bishop. In my archdiocese, those who are illicitly divorced and remarried may only receive if they abstain from relations. In some dioceses, there are now more nuanced approaches. Obey your local bishop.

 

[Memaw]

So what if the pope never answers? What are they supposed to do?

The laity have a right to know and the bishops have a duty to the faithful to let them know how the faith is being protected or undermined

Agreed especially after the confusion over what the Pope has said! It seriously need clarification! God Bless, Memaw

 

[JimG]

From the article, apparently quoting from the letter:

“Despite the fact that the Prefect of the Doctrine of the Faith has repeatedly declared that the doctrine of the Church has not changed,” they add, “Numerous statements have appeared from individual Bishops, Cardinals, and even Episcopal Conferences, approving what the Magisterium of the Church has never approved.”

It seems doubtful, since they have not received a response to the dubia, that they would receive an audience having the same purpose. The seems to be a case in which the Vatican simply does not wish to clarify the issue.

 

[Sy_Noe]

So what if the pope never answers? What are they supposed to do?

The laity have a right to know and the bishops have a duty to the faithful to let them know how the faith is being protected or undermined

This is confusing on a Catholic site. I’m unsure if you are suggesting the person who faithful Catholics believe to be the vicar of Christ in the year of our Lord 2017 could be undermining the Catholic faith.

 

[Brassring]

The truth is, people are scandalized regardless. It is confusing to many of the laity that the “rules” for who can receive communion now vary from diocese to diocese, region to region. This is simply a factual observation. The Holy Father has decided not to definitively settle the matter at this time. This isn’t the first time there has been disagreement or divergence in the Church and it won’t be the last time…but for now, people are confused. Personally, I think all any of us can do is follow our local bishop. In my archdiocese, those who are illicitly divorced and remarried may only receive if they abstain from relations. In some dioceses, there are now more nuanced approaches. Obey your local bishop.

Of course, that’s the simple and best answer, but that doesn’t generate controversy and bad feelings between the trads and the mods, so we can’t have that now, can we?

After all, what would we talk about on CAF?

 

[_Abyssinia]

Of course, that’s the simple and best answer, but that doesn’t generate controversy and bad feelings between the trads and the mods, so we can’t have that now, can we?

After all, what would we talk about on CAF?

Prefect for the Congregation For The Doctrine of The Faith, Cardinal Muller, said in an interview cited at The Catholic Herald:

I do not think it is particularly beneficial for each individual bishop to comment on papal documents to explain how he subjectively understands the document.

It cannot be that the universally binding doctrine of the Church, formulated by the Pope, is given different and even contradictory regional interpretations. The basis of the Church is the unity of faith. The Church no longer experiences a new revelation.

catholicherald.co.uk/news/2017/02/17/cardinal-muller-bishops-should-not-give-contradictory-interpretations-of-doctrine/

But aren’t differing interpretations of Amoris Latetia with differing guidelines coming out, what has been happening, and likely will continue to happen? I hope Pope Francis answers the dubia.

 

[ARSpade]

Like Martin Luther’s conscience? Conscience is a pitiful excuse for bad decisions.

Take it up with Cardinal Cupich of the Archdiocese of Chicago.

 

[Brassring]

Prefect for the Congregation For The Doctrine of The Faith, Cardinal Muller, said in an interview:

catholicherald.co.uk/news/2017/02/17/cardinal-muller-bishops-should-not-give-contradictory-interpretations-of-doctrine/

But isn’t that is what has been happening, and likely will continue to happen? I hope Pope Francis answers the dubia.

If a bishop is unclear how to guide his flock then he should seek guidance. Quietly. Through channels. Until he gets such guidance, he should continue following the previous understanding. The laity have no place even hearing of this dubia, let alone engaging in the debate.

THAT’S the problem I have with this dubia business. Not that it exists, but that the laity were made aware of it in a manner that invited controversy.

 

[Beautiful]

The truth is, people are scandalized regardless. It is confusing to many of the laity that the “rules” for who can receive communion now vary from diocese to diocese, region to region. This is simply a factual observation. The Holy Father has decided not to definitively settle the matter at this time. This isn’t the first time there has been disagreement or divergence in the Church and it won’t be the last time…but for now, people are confused. Personally, I think all any of us can do is follow our local bishop. In my archdiocese, those who are illicitly divorced and remarried may only receive if they abstain from relations. In some dioceses, there are now more nuanced approaches.** Obey your local bishop**.

Most people do not obey. They do what they want or feel in their heart to do.
This is what I have observed for about 30+ years.
The flock runs amok every chance it gets…like multiplying beasties. This Shepherding business can’t be easy. Imagine how daunting it must seem looking out at the many.

 

[_Abyssinia]

If a bishop is unclear how to guide his flock then he should seek guidance. Quietly. Through channels. Until he gets such guidance, he should continue following the previous understanding. The laity have no place even hearing of this dubia, let alone engaging in the debate.

THAT’S the problem I have with this dubia business. Not that it exists, but that the laity were made aware of it in a manner that invited controversy.

In an interview Cardinal Burke did with Catholic Action, Cardinal Burke talked about the dubia having been made public. The bold text is the question and comment from Catholic Action:

CA: So you are saying that you are publishing a letter that you sent to the Pope privately. This is extraordinary. Isn’t this action objectionable from a Christian point of view? Our Lord said in the Gospel of Matthew (18:15) that if we have a problem with a brother, we are supposed to talk with him privately, one-on-one, not publicly.

In the same portion of Sacred Scripture to which you refer, Our Lord also said that, after addressing a difficulty to a brother, individually and together with others, without it being resolved, then, for the good of the Church the matter is to be presented to the whole Church. This is precisely what we are doing.

There have been many other statements of concern regarding Amoris Laetitia, all of which have not received an official response from the Pope or his representatives. Therefore, in order to look for clarity on these matters, three other Cardinals and I used the formality of presenting fundamental questions directly to the Holy Father and to the Prefect of the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith. No response has been given to these questions either. Therefore, in making public our questions or dubia, we are being faithful to Christ’s mandate to first talk with a person privately, then in a small group, and finally, taking the matter to the Church as a whole.

catholicaction.org/interview_with_cardinal_burke_about_the_dubia