Foxe's Book of Maryrs and Maryrs' Mirror

[mrasell]

Alfred Baudrillart, rector of the Catholic Institute of Paris said: “When confronted by heresy, she does not content herself with persuasion; arguments of an intellectual and moral order appear to her insufficient, and she has recourse to force, to corporal punishment, to torture…Especially did she act thus in the sixteenth century with regard to Protestants.” Alfred Baudrillart, The Catholic Church, the Renaissance, and Protestantism, pp. 182, 183

The New Catholic Encyclopedia states that torture by approved by the Catholic Church and used in the inquisition. This was after a discover of some Roman law books, torture was an acceptable legal practice by the Romans, although not usually on their own citizens. A person was considered guilty until proved innocent, and torture was used to extract a confession. The inquisition was built on similar principles.

 

[Radical]

Can the Pope sin? Peter committed sin. He denied Christ. That did not change the deposit of Faith.

Let me see if I have gotten this right.

a) The Pope issues a Bull calling for the extermination of the Hussites;

b) A Council of the Catholic Church of the 15th century grants an plenary indulgence to those who would prosecute the Hussites;

c) The Pope states that God is agreeable to the killing of the Hussites; and

d) Relying upon such things, many a good Catholic goes off to Bohemia to fight the Hussites and ends up being killed whilst relying on the assurance of his Church that he will receive a plenary indulgence for his efforts and on the assurance of his Pope that he is doing the will of God…

…and are you now telling me that those poor dead Catholic soldiers (martyrs) were wrong to rely on the above teaching from the Pope and on the promise of an indulgence b/c those things were never made part of the official deposit of faith? Forgive me, but in order to determine what was an official teaching in the 1420’s, I am inclined to rely on the Pope, the Council and receivers of indulgences from that decade as opposed to someone else…I have no doubt that the teaching “it is good and godly to kill Hussites” was recognized as official by all those involved…Pope, Council and in particular, those Catholics who died for an indulgence. IMHO it is a little too late to try and sanitize that era’s official teachings.

 

[Sword_Brethren]

Let me see if I have gotten this right.

a) The Pope issues a Bull calling for the extermination of the Hussites;

Has anybody here ever read this Papal bull?

 

[Sword_Brethren]

Let me see if I have gotten this right.

a) The Pope issues a Bull calling for the extermination of the Hussites;

b) A Council of the Catholic Church of the 15th century grants an plenary indulgence to those who would prosecute the Hussites;

c) The Pope states that God is agreeable to the killing of the Hussites; and

d) Relying upon such things, many a good Catholic goes off to Bohemia to fight the Hussites and ends up being killed whilst relying on the assurance of his Church that he will receive a plenary indulgence for his efforts and on the assurance of his Pope that he is doing the will of God…

…and are you now telling me that those poor dead Catholic soldiers (martyrs) were wrong to rely on the above teaching from the Pope and on the promise of an indulgence b/c those things were never made part of the official deposit of faith? Forgive me, but in order to determine what was an official teaching in the 1420’s, I am inclined to rely on the Pope, the Council and receivers of indulgences from that decade as opposed to someone else…I have no doubt that the teaching “it is good and godly to kill Hussites” was recognized as official by all those involved…Pope, Council and in particular, those Catholics who died for an indulgence. IMHO it is a little too late to try and sanitize that era’s official teachings.

“When those” Hussites “got a Catholic priest into their power they used to burn him alive, or cut him in two halves.”
The History of Heresies and Their Refutation, by St. Alphonsus M. Liguori p.256

Catholic “priests who did not agree to give Communion in both kinds were hounded from their churches” by Hussites.
The Hussite War 1419-36, by Stephen Turnbull p.7

An Hussite “engraged mob surged against the doors of the Town Hall and burst in. The hapless town councillors” Catholics" were seized, and thrown from the windows on to the spear points of the armed Hussites standing below. These murders became known as the ‘First Defenestration of Prague’."
The Hussite War 1419-36, by Stephen Turnbull p.8

 

[Radical]

“When those” Hussites “got a Catholic priest into their power they used to burn him alive, or cut him in two halves.”
The History of Heresies and Their Refutation, by St. Alphonsus M. Liguori p.256

Catholic “priests who did not agree to give Communion in both kinds were hounded from their churches” by Hussites.
The Hussite War 1419-36, by Stephen Turnbull p.7

An Hussite “engraged mob surged against the doors of the Town Hall and burst in. The hapless town councillors” Catholics" were seized, and thrown from the windows on to the spear points of the armed Hussites standing below. These murders became known as the ‘First Defenestration of Prague’."
The Hussite War 1419-36, by Stephen Turnbull p.8

I wonder if the Hussites taught that there was nothing more agreeable to God than the killing of Catholics and that the killing of Catholics earned one a nice plenary indulgence…if so, that sure would sound like an official position…can you get an unofficial indulgence?

Has anybody here ever read this Papal bull?

why don’t you post it, or some summaries of it from Catholic sources?

 

[CopticChristian]

I wonder if the Hussites taught that there was nothing more agreeable to God than the killing of Catholics and that the killing of Catholics earned one a nice plenary indulgence…if so, that sure would sound like an official position…can you get an unofficial indulgence?

why don’t you post it, or some summaries of it from Catholic sources?

It may be possible to consider the times and they were different times. The Hussites as I understand broke into 3 factions and some joined the Lutherans…Joan of Arc wrote the Hussites a letter…I believe this puts it into context…

archive.joan-of-arc.org/joanofarc_letter_march_23_1430.html

“but if I don’t find out that you have reformed yourselves I might leave the English behind and go against you, so that by the sword-if I can’t do it any other way-I will eliminate your false and vile superstion and relieve you of either your heresy or your life”

Now this was all for reading the writings of Wycliffe and causing a stir. I understand that heresy was an issue in those days that caused some to come to the sword and today we just use the pen and say…hey correct your heresy…

 

[Sword_Brethren]

I wonder if the Hussites taught that there was nothing more agreeable to God than the killing of Catholics and that the killing of Catholics earned one a nice plenary indulgence…if so, that sure would sound like an official position…can you get an unofficial indulgence?

why don’t you post it, or some summaries of it from Catholic sources?

I have been searching for it but not able to find the bull on the web.

 

[moncler_kids]

Good post. I am also going to write a blog post about this…I enjoyed reading your post and I like your take on the issue. Thanks.
monclerjakkersalg.net/moncler-polo-shirt-c-24.html
kvindercanadagoose.com/canada-goose-vest-canada-goose-herre-vest-c-28_29_30_45.html

 

[Radical]

I understand that heresy was an issue in those days that caused some to come to the sword and today we just use the pen and say…hey correct your heresy…

we greatly appreciate the new approach…so what do you think? …is/was it God’s will that Catholic Christians kill Hussites or Anabaptists so as to battle heresy…sometimes?..never? …always?..or more specifically, could it ever be God’s will that you kill Hussites or Anabaptists so as to battle heresy? If sometimes, what would make it the right time to kill? If never, what do you make of indulgences that were granted to that end (or similar ends)? If always, kindly turn yourself in to the local authorities…

 

[CopticChristian]

**we **greatly appreciate the new approach…so what do you think? …is/was it God’s will that Catholic Christians kill Hussites or Anabaptists so as to battle heresy…sometimes?..never? …always?..or more specifically, could it ever be God’s will that you kill Hussites or Anabaptists so as to battle heresy? If sometimes, what would make it the right time to kill? If never, what do you make of indulgences that were granted to that end (or similar ends)? If always, kindly turn yourself in to the local authorities…

I sense that you think well of yourself…“we”…are well pleased, we are not amused, we would like to…You asked what I think and then left no room to think…you ask the Will of God?

The will of God is that the Church stay one. The Will of God is not what led Knox, Zwingli, Luther, Calvin and others to sin and lead flocks astray…the sin should be seen as begetting other sin…we look to the progenitor of the heretical sin that caused the controversy where others sinned…

Look to the cause of this sin of killing and then ask your question if that was the will of God?

Pelagius, Arius, Nestorius, Knox, Zwingli, Calvin, Luther sinned and the fruits of sin is sin…Knox, Calvin, Zwingli, and Luther appealed to the local authorities to vote their heretical beliefs in and as a result we get people in this day filled with hatred for the sins that were committed laying blame on one side or the other…had these men not sinned and led people astray we, the world, we the faithful, we who do not worship our reason, would have been better off in the world. That is my answer.

 

[Radical]

I sense that you think well of yourself…“we”…are well pleased, we are not amused, we would like to…

that is kinda rich…coming from a guy who felt the need to disclose what he gets paid for an opinion.

You asked what I think and then left no room to think…you ask the Will of God?

no room? I gave you everything from “never” to “always” and everything in between…there isn’t any more room available.

Look to the cause of this sin of killing and then ask your question if that was the will of God?

I know what I have answered when I have asked myself this question…I am wondering what you and other Catholics think.

That is my answer.

it sure seems like you have a hard time dealing with this chapter of Catholic history. First, no matter what Contarini said, you could not tolerate giving Foxe’s Book any label other than “fiction”…no matter how many facts it contained, apparently any inaccuracy makes it a work of fiction. Now, you seem to be stuck at pointing your finger at the other (non-Catholic) guy rather than evaluating the actions and teachings of the Catholics at the time.

 

[Sword_Brethren]

PS you’ll find Cormenin’s work here and the quote at the very start of page 117…just search “burn”

What is Cormenin’s source for the quote?

 

[Sword_Brethren]

Pope Martin V in a letter to the King of Poland said, “burn, massacre, make deserts everywhere, for nothing could be more agreeable to God, or more useful to the cause of kings, than the extermination of the Hussites” L M de Cormenin, The Public and Private History of the Popes of Rome, Vol. II, pp. 116,117

EWTN Historian Dr. Mathew Bunson doubts the authenticity of the letter.

ewtn.com/vexperts/showresult.asp?RecNum=301576&Forums=0&Experts=0&Days=2002&Author=&Keyword=martin+V&pgnu=1&groupnum=0&record_bookmark=5&ORDER_BY_TXT=ORDER+BY+ReplyDate+DESC&start_at=

“The first point to make is that such a letter would have been sent not to the Poles but to Sigismund, the Holy Roman Emperor whose vast realm encompassed Bohemia and Moravia. As the Hussites were active chiefly in Bohemia, the pontiff would have addressed himself to the emperor. As for the letter itself, it is correct that Pope Martin V was concerned about the bloody events in Bohemia resulting from the Hussite Wars (the struggle that erupted in Bohemia and Moravia following the execution of the heretical leader Jan Hus and the suppression of the Hussite national Bohemian party by the forces of the Holy Roman Empire). However, the pontiff did not advocate such harsh measures. In fact,Church officials tried to bring about a peaceful end to the conflict. This is demonstrated by the Compactata of Prague that was offered to the Hussites by the Church’s Council of Basel (1431-49) and that provided a peaceful means for the Hussites to return to the Church. By 1429, the Hussites were breaking into two camps, the Utraquists (or moderates) who returned to the Church, and the Taborites (extremists) who remained at war until around 1434. The Hussites declined in strength following the coronation of Sigismund as king of Bohemia in 1436. Any harsh repressions that were carried out were done so by the troops and at the command of Sigismund.”

 

[Contarini]

EWTN Historian Dr. Mathew Bunson doubts the authenticity of the letter.

ewtn.com/vexperts/showresult.asp?RecNum=301576&Forums=0&Experts=0&Days=2002&Author=&Keyword=martin+V&pgnu=1&groupnum=0&record_bookmark=5&ORDER_BY_TXT=ORDER+BY+ReplyDate+DESC&start_at=

“The first point to make is that such a letter would have been sent not to the Poles but to Sigismund, the Holy Roman Emperor whose vast realm encompassed Bohemia and Moravia. As the Hussites were active chiefly in Bohemia, the pontiff would have addressed himself to the emperor. As for the letter itself, it is correct that Pope Martin V was concerned about the bloody events in Bohemia resulting from the Hussite Wars (the struggle that erupted in Bohemia and Moravia following the execution of the heretical leader Jan Hus and the suppression of the Hussite national Bohemian party by the forces of the Holy Roman Empire). However, the pontiff did not advocate such harsh measures. In fact,Church officials tried to bring about a peaceful end to the conflict. This is demonstrated by the Compactata of Prague that was offered to the Hussites by the Church’s Council of Basel (1431-49) and that provided a peaceful means for the Hussites to return to the Church. By 1429, the Hussites were breaking into two camps, the Utraquists (or moderates) who returned to the Church, and the Taborites (extremists) who remained at war until around 1434. The Hussites declined in strength following the coronation of Sigismund as king of Bohemia in 1436. Any harsh repressions that were carried out were done so by the troops and at the command of Sigismund.”

Well, I wouldn’t rule out the possibility that he exhorted the Poles to participate. They were neighbors of Bohemia, after all. The CE acknowledges that he called for a crusade against Bohemia.

However, the letter still hasn’t been cited in a trustworthy form, only in an outdated secondary source with no documentation. This is not acceptable. I downloaded the two relevant volumes of Mansi and scanned them, but did not find the letter. That doesn’t mean it’s inauthentic–Mansi is mostly the record of councils, thought it does have some papal bulls, etc., as well, generally related to councils.

As it stands I find it suspicious, but that may be translation. For instance, the reference to “abolition of slavery” is questionable, but it might mean what we would usually call “serfdom.” If so, it appears to refer to the radical Taborites, who came to dominate the Hussite military effort.

As Coptic Christian said earlier, there were three different Hussite groups. One was fairly moderate and dominated by the aristocracy; one was pacifist and gave rise to the “Moravian” denomination that exists today; and the third was a radical revolutionary movement.

Edwin

 

[Radical]

EWTN Historian Dr. Mathew Bunson doubts the authenticity of the letter.

"The first point to make is that such a letter would have been sent not to the Poles but to Sigismund,…

The Hussite Wars involved the Polish people and Polish lands…it is ridiculous to assert that a Pope could not have sent a letter to the Catholic monarch (of an involved country) and that such a letter would not address the Pope’s views regarding the Hussites. It is not ridiculous to suggest that the Pope might have sent a similar letter to the emperor.

However, the pontiff did not advocate such harsh measures. In fact,Church officials tried to bring about a peaceful end to the conflict.

Pope Martin declared a crusade…that involved armies invading Bohemia to suppress the Hussites by force…armies kill…does Bunson think that harsh measures were not involved in the declared crusade?

 

[Radical]

However, the letter still hasn’t been cited in a trustworthy form, only in an outdated secondary source with no documentation. This is not acceptable.

agreed…it could be better, but all challenges to it here have fallen flat.

As it stands I find it suspicious, but that may be translation. For instance, the reference to “abolition of slavery” is questionable, but it might mean what we would usually call “serfdom.” If so, it appears to refer to the radical Taborites, who came to dominate the Hussite military effort.

have you considered this aspect of slavery and Martin V? (my apologies for referencing wikipedia…but I am too lazy to find anything better)

Slavery was commonplace in this era and was accepted by “almost everyone” with few arguing against it. During the 15th century, sentiment in Europe increasingly turned against the enslavement of Christians and the Church denounced such practices, but this did not extend to unbelievers. According to Burton (2007) Martin authorized a crusade against Africa in 1418 and this coupled with a later bull (1441) sanctioned the Portuguese trade in African slaves. In March 1425 a bull was issued that threatened excommunication for any Christian slave dealers and ordered Jews to wear a “badge of infamy” to deter, in part, the buying of Christians. In June 1425 Martin anathematized those who sold Christian slaves to Muslims. Traffic in Christian slaves was not banned, purely the sale to non-Christian owners. The papal bull of excommunication issued to the Genoese merchants of Caffa related to the buying and selling of Christians but has been considered ineffectual as prior injunctions against the Viennese, including the Laws of Gazaria, made allowances for the sale of both Christian and Muslim slaves. Ten black African slaves were presented to Martin in 1441 by Prince Henry of Portugal. Martin supported colonial expansion. Davidson (1961) argues that Martin’s injunction against slavery was not a condemnation of slavery itself but rather it was driven through fear of “infidel power”. (emphais added by Radical to show points of possible divergence with the Hussite position on slavery)

I fail to see anything in the letter that is inconsistent with a declaration of a crusade…what is a crusade other than a God endorsed use of military force? …wouldn’t such use of force result in the killing of Hussites? Doesn’t it then follow that killing Hussites is in accordance with God’s will? Why wouldn’t the Pope, when trying to enlist the aid of a monarch, point out the threat to that monarch caused by the ideas of liberty and equality? In short, it seems to me that what is stated in the letter is entirely consistent with the calling of a crusade.

 

[Sword_Brethren]

An Hussite “engraged mob surged against the doors of the Town Hall and burst in. The hapless town councillors” Catholics" were seized, and thrown from the windows on to the spear points of the armed Hussites standing below. These murders became known as the ‘First Defenestration of Prague’."
The Hussite War 1419-36, by Stephen Turnbull p.8

“On July 30, 1419, following a violent sermon by the priest John Zhelivsky, quoting numerous Scriptural passages about killing and overthrow, thousands of Hussites massed in the streets of Prague, seized the Church of St. Stephen, then stormed the town hall and threw 13 councillors an other officials out of the windows, killing them.”

The Glory of Christendom: A History of Christendom Vol. 3, Warren H. Carroll, 1993, p.507

 

[Sword_Brethren]

I fail to see anything in the letter that is inconsistent with a declaration of a crusade…what is a crusade other than a God endorsed use of military force? …wouldn’t such use of force result in the killing of Hussites? Doesn’t it then follow that killing Hussites is in accordance with God’s will? Why wouldn’t the Pope, when trying to enlist the aid of a monarch, point out the threat to that monarch caused by the ideas of liberty and equality? In short, it seems to me that what is stated in the letter is entirely consistent with the calling of a crusade.

The Hussites “sang a grim war song, ‘We, warriors of God’, which ended ‘slay, slay, slay, slay them every one’…The Taborite heretics, the Bohemian scourge, enjoyed ravaging this clerical state, laying waste, torturing priests and junkers to death, and carrying the common people away to captivity.”

The Monks of War, Desmond Seward,1972, p. 128

 

[Sword_Brethren]

a) The Pope issues a Bull calling for the extermination of the Hussites;

"Pope Martin V who issued a bull on 17 March 1420 which proclaimed a crusade “for the destruction of the Wycliffites, Hussites and all other heretics in Bohemia.’ "

wordiq.com/definition/Hussite_Wars

Is it extermination or is it destruction?

 

[chuckfrmvalyfrg]

it sure seems like you have a hard time dealing with this chapter of Catholic history. First, no matter what Contarini said, you could not tolerate giving Foxe’s Book any label other than “fiction”…no matter how many facts it contained, apparently any inaccuracy makes it a work of fiction. Now, you seem to be stuck at pointing your finger at the other (non-Catholic) guy rather than evaluating the actions and teachings of the Catholics at the time.